Lizzie Borden Society Forum

I was wondering, after reading that Astrologer's interpretation of Lizzie's present and future- if Lizzie needed drugs just to be *normally functional* at the time of the murders? (Should have had them).

Thinking of the probable amount of sufferers of untreated mental illness walking around back then- and the suggestion that whoever cared for Lizzie would have given her the means to calm her- that sounded to me like Dr. Bowen and his gift of morphine!
We know Lizzie continued to be allowed morphine by Bowen, while in local lock-up- which was really only thru Thursday night and part of Friday, when she was taken away to Taunten.

I'm wondering if the morphine could bring her out of something like a psychotic break- and sort of bring her to her senses, so to speak, and actually have been theraputic- something close to what she needed as a treatment, rather than an assaugement of her shock?

I got the idea from Law & Order Criminal Intent program last night as they had to give a shot (of Haldol?) to a young man just to get him lucid enough to question.

I have always considered the possibility that Lizzie was either on drugs at the time of the murders or needed to be on something to prevent her bad behavior from rearing it's ugly head. My mother was diagnosed with "manic depression" in the 1970's, I guess they call it Bipolar now. But I witnessed her Highs and Lows and it was Extreme and Scary. She could be soooo hyper, energetic, and full of herself for weeks at a time, then, suddenly, she could not muster the energy to get out of the bed. She has been on Lithium to control her condition since then, and she is perfectly fine now, except for an occasional bout of "hyper-ness". You know all Mothers like to talk and talk, keep you up to date on all the gossip in the family and otherwise.

I think Dr. Bowen would have known of any "condition" Lizzie had, and maybe he tried to help her by giving her drugs that made her "condition "worse? You know how some drugs that are supposed to calm you down can actually make some people Hyper, or for example, supposed to make you drowsy but make you more than alert. I know I can't even take a Benadryl without a day of feeling like I am in a fog.

Maybe that is why Dr. Bowen acted so strange the day of the murders, he knew that Lizzie had a problem?

Smudgeman @ Fri Dec 16, 2005 7:25 pm wrote: She could be soooo hyper, energetic, and full of herself for weeks at a time, then, suddenly, she could not muster the energy to get out of the bed.

The highs and lows can come and go without any sort of rhyme or reason. They can occur very very rapidly, or they can occur slowly, with weeks or months in between. There are also periods where the mood swings can level off and there are no inward feelings or outward signs that anything is wrong. Even when the person is acting "soo hyper" they may not necessarily realize their own behavior. You can't always see the behaviors yourself, as others around you can. But you do of course know there is something wrong. It can lead to a great deal of frustration and negative feelings.

I don't know about Extreme and Scary, but it can be very frustrating not only for the person, but for everyone around them if it is not kept under control. I can only imagine what a person back then who suffered from it might have went through. What I'm wondering, is if maybe some of these symptoms could have been misdiagnosed as not depression, but a mental illness in the sense that Lizzie simply was outright crazy, and should have been committed?

The possibility of bi-polar has crossed my mind more than once....

Well, would morphine help Lizzie if she was ill like you all describe?
I hadn't thought about the reverse reaction tho. Which is possible- but assuming Lizzie was ill and the drug helped her stabilize so then she acted *normally*- is that possible?
They said she kept to her room Friday and after the funeral Saturday, I think and pretty much thru until the inquest.

Morphine can actually cause depression.



Opioids can also cause temporary confusion, hallucinations or depression. This can be resolved by reducing the dosage

http://www.webmd.com/content/article/45 ... 6503_00_10



The following drugs have been reported to cause mania in some patients...

Opioids -- A group of narcotics used to relieve moderate to severe pain. These drugs have a high potential for abuse and addiction. Examples include codeine, morphine, Demerol, Darvocet and Percodan.

http://www.medicinenet.com/script/main/ ... ekey=55169



Medicines That Can Cause Mood Disorders

http://www.cchs.net/health/health-info/ ... index=9287

Morphine seems to have both +'s and -'s.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Morphine


Tracy...

This link has an abundance of information about mental disorders and their treatments of the nineteenth century.

http://bms.brown.edu/HistoryofPsychiatr ... l#Articles

I think that is a good possibility that she was on drugs or had some sort of mental illness. Back then, too, mental illness was very frowned upon and most of the time you were in a crazy ward and no one talked about it. You just "went away".

I am nearly 100% certain that IF Lizzie had a true mental illness that it was and remained undiagnosed her entire lifetime...

Her telling Alice that she felt 'something hanging over her' and speaking of the time she was away with friends and they mentioned that she didn't talk or participate in the conversation may be the most telling statements of all pertaining to a possible illness.

While it's very possible that Lizzie may have had an undiagnosed mental illness, I'm not yet convinced it played a major role in the murders.

I am also stuck on why give morphine - a depressant - to an unstable Lizzie immediately after the murders...unless she was very excited, anxious, etc? To calm her down? For someone already suffering from depression (or alternating phases of manic and depressive behavior), unless she was in a manic state, I see the morphine doing perhaps much more harm than good.

I seem to recall reading something about a rumor that Lizzie had tried to take her life in the days immediately following the murders. Although I don't think the rumor was given much credence at the time, I wondered if any other information was known regarding it in hindsight?

I don't subscribe to Victoria Lincoln's epilepsy theory, but Lizzie's "something's going to happen" speech to Alice Russell the evening before the murders could have been an aura.

In the Victorian period, some types of untreated thyroid problems (irritable, emotional, unpredicable Lizzie--is the side of her neck just fat in the DID SHE DO IT? poster or could she have a goiter?) could cause psychosis, and I am sure other diseases which are easily managed today could also cause psychosis. Some people supposedly became violent under "thyroid storm."

Lizzie could have had some kind of lead poisoning too. I all probability that drab paint was lead based, and if Lizzie is to be believed, she was around it enough to get it on the hem of her dress.

More likely, Lizzie was addicted to bromides as many bored, stiffled Victorian women were--much as women used Valium to mask their unhappiness when I was growing up or some people use Percocet today.

Somewhere it was reported Lizzie was a poor sleeper. People have gotten away with sleep-walking murder in our time.

There are many interesting speculations one can make about Lizzie and illnesses and drugs. but proving them is another matter.

edit (sorry, my computer seems to be having some kind of problem with duplicating messages--it gets stuck while waiting for the message review after posting).

She wasn't put on morphine until after the murders, thou. Or at least what I read was that the family doctor, Dr. Bowen, had given her some after the murders, to calm her nerves.

But being very aggitated or in an agitated state is a part of bipolar; and she could have been in that state when she killed her parents.

Was Lizzie perhaps given the Morphine because Dr. Bowen would have EXPECTED her to be hysterical?

He may have assumed she (or any other woman for that matter who found her father murdered) would need it... But cool, collected Lizzie did not-- and being as cool and collected as she was, realized the benefits of people thinking she needed it.

Audrey @ Sat Dec 17, 2005 3:31 pm wrote:I am nearly 100% certain that IF Lizzie had a true mental illness that it was and remained undiagnosed her entire lifetime...

Her telling Alice that she felt 'something hanging over her' and speaking of the time she was away with friends and they mentioned that she didn't talk or participate in the conversation may be the most telling statements of all pertaining to a possible illness.

I tend to agree that if she did have an illness, it was probably misdiagnosed. I have always thought that the time she was with her friends, and did not participate in the conversations, was due to the fact that maybe they were talking about boyfriends and marriage, and Lizzie knew she had other feelings that were not all in common with the other girls. Maybe she had a sadness that she was not "normal" like the others, had an affection for women and could never express her true feelings to them.

If Lizzie also had a mental illness, this only compounded the problems she was going through. I am also interested if the drugs Dr. Bowen was giving her could have possibly added to the problem. Excuse me for using personal experiences to explain situations, but it works for me. There was a time in my life when I was going through a difficult situation, and I sought help from a psychiatrist. I was prescribed Prozac, and instead of it helping me, it made me into a monstor of a person that I was not. It changed my personality, and made me aggressive, irritable, mean, and difficult to be around. I can't explain it, but I had this "buzz" in my head, and the drug was making me crazy. After the initial trial period, my doctor took me off of it, and I felt so much better. Sometimes drugs that are supposed to help do more harm than good.

I wonder why V. Lincoln chose epilepsy as the illness for Lizzie to suffer from?
There really are many more choices which would fit as well, if not better.
If Lizzie had some mental illness- I think it's possible it was never diagnosed, as suggested.
It would also make her hard to live with- reason why Emma left?
But would Emma leave her sister if she thought she was mentally ill?
Maybe Lizzie continued to use some drug or other (after that introduction to morphine by Bowen?) which kept her steady and if she stopped taking them she was erractic and so Emma had the wrong idea about Lizzie's stability?
Meaning, Lizzie needed drugs to be or appear *stable*, and yet there was a stigma attached to that- and Emma disapproved of something which she didn't know Lizzie needed?
(As some of her reason for leaving...)

Kat @ Sun Dec 18, 2005 2:23 am wrote:I wonder why V. Lincoln chose epilepsy as the illness for Lizzie to suffer from?
There really are many more choices which would fit as well, if not better.
If Lizzie had some mental illness- I think it's possible it was never diagnosed, as suggested.
It would also make her hard to live with- reason why Emma left?
But would Emma leave her sister if she thought she was mentally ill?
Maybe Lizzie continued to use some drug or other (after that introduction to morphine by Bowen?) which kept her steady and if she stopped taking them she was erractic and so Emma had the wrong idea about Lizzie's stability?
Meaning, Lizzie needed drugs to be or appear *stable*, and yet there was a stigma attached to that- and Emma disapproved of something which she didn't know Lizzie needed?
(As some of her reason for leaving...)

Yet, if Lizzie took Morphine for depresssion, it would not have made her stable. In fact it could've made her symptoms worse. I think the reason Bowen gave her morphine was to reduce anxiety, which she did not seem to be exhibiting in the first place. I think the calmest person in 92 Second Street on August 4th was Miss Lizzie Borden.

This is what he testified to, that he gave it to her to cure her 'nervous excitment'. I'm not sure that I see how Lizzie taking the wrong drug, which could have lead to her symptoms worsening, would have lead to her staying on drugs to keep herself *stable*. I would think if she continued to take morphine it would be because she became addicted to it, and not for any medical benefits she might have received from it.

http://www.infoplease.com/ce6/sci/A0834082.html

I'm thinking that before we can decide whether or not Lizzie had a mental illness, we should first decide whether or not she had any symptoms, and what they were if any, before we should decide whether or not she had to take any medicines to keep them under control. That is putting the cart before the horse. I did find this information on the internet, but I'm not sure how it applies to the United States at the time.

HISTORICAL BACKGROUND
The great German neuropsychiatrist, Emil Kraepelin, described what he termed manic-depressive insanity at the end of the nineteenth century. He conceptualized a continuum that included today's DSM-IV subtypes, mixed and rapid cycling states, many of the soft bipolar variations and also episodic depressions. This view prevailed until the 1960's, at which time the creators of the first DSM edition ( DSM-I ) proposed a differentiation between major depression and manic-depressive illness. In later DSM editions, this evolved to the unipolar - bipolar dichotomy. In the 1970's Fieve and Dunner discriminated bipolar I from bipolar II disorder, a seminal event in the evolution of the soft bipolar spectrum. Klerman was the first to postulate a further subtyping of bipolar disorders in 1981. Klerman's Classification of Primary Bipolar Subtypes is summarized as follows:


KLERMAN'S PRIMARY BIPOLAR SUBTYPES

(Psychiatric Annals #17: January 1987)

Bipolar I: Mania and depression
Bipolar II: Hypomania and depression
Bipolar III: Cyclothymic disorder
Bipolar IV: Hypomania or mania precipitated by antidepressant drugs
Bipolar V: Depressed patients with a family history of bipolar illness
Bipolar VI: Mania without depression [unipolar mania]
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Emil_Kraepelin

http://www.druglibrary.org/schaffer/History/CASEY1.htm


I don't know how we could say that any illness better fits Lizzie since we really have very little/no idea of what symptoms she may have suffered from. I think Lincoln chose epilepsy because there was a belief that during an epileptic seizure a person could become violent, or psychotic. It is called Epileptic Psychosis. The person is said to have no recollection of their actions afterwards. There have actually been real murder cases in which the defence used "Epileptic Psychosis" as a sort of plea for temporary insanity. Epileptic Psychosis has even been said to share many of the same symptoms as schizophrenia or bipolar.


8. Epileptic Psychosis

Mild but permanent psychical anomalies are observed in very many epileptics. These patients are for the most part extremely sensitive and irritable, and, in contrast with this, may often simultaneously show an exaggeratedly tender and pathetic pietism. Not infrequently one observes characteristic periodic variations in the mood. From time to time the patients themselves feel an incomprehensible internal unrest, anxiety, or sadness; some seek to mitigate this condition by taking strong nerve poisons, at times in excessive doses (many cases of dipsomania belong to this class); others have recourse to debauchery; a third class go off like tramps for days; while a fourth attempt suicide. In other cases we meet with moodiness, which is not sad but irritable and angry, and consequently differs from the regular irritability of the epileptic; it frequently leads to most violent attacks upon those about them. Such conditions may often be traced even to earliest childhood.

In connexion with eclampsia, or even in its place, there often take place characteristic mental disturbances which begin very suddenly (dream or twilight states), last but a short time and pass, usually leaving no trace in the memory. These attacks show themselves outwardly in characteristic impulsive acts—as for instance in aimless wanderings (many cases of military desertion are due to such attacks), or in delirious confused conditions, mostly of a horrifying nature (fire, blood, ghosts, etc.). Such patients are often very dangerous, for in their blind anxiety they assail those about them, no matter who they may be. The cases among the Malays of "running amuck" are of this nature. In other case of frequent occurrence the patients have visionary, ecstatic deleria; they sing psalms aloud, believe that they see the heavens open, see the Last Judgment, speak with God, etc. (Mohammed was an epileptic). Often the attacks occur only at night (epileptic night-walkers, somnambulists).

http://www.catholicity.com/encyclopedia ... ental.html


http://www.neurology.org/cgi/content/abstract/44/1/34

http://ajp.psychiatryonline.org/cgi/con ... /155/3/325


http://professionals.epilepsy.com/wi/pr ... l_symptoms

The diagnosis of mental illness is tricky even when you have a patient to examine and test!

Many patients today are subjected to trial and error as far as medications and diagnosis are concerned.

Therefore, it is nearly impossible to examine any of Lizzie's behaviors for symptoms or characteristics of mental illnesses. All we can do is speculate.

Personally... I think anyone would have to be mentally ill to hack 2 people to death for money.

If she did it, can you imagine the nerve of the woman? Steel, pure steel.

Audrey @ Sun Dec 18, 2005 3:04 pm wrote:The diagnosis of mental illness is tricky even when you have a patient to examine and test!

Many patients today are subjected to trial and error as far as medications and diagnosis are concerned.

Therefore, it is nearly impossible to examine any of Lizzie's behaviors for symptoms or characteristics of mental illnesses. All we can do is speculate.

Personally... I think anyone would have to be mentally ill to hack 2 people to death for money.

If she did it, can you imagine the nerve of the woman? Steel, pure steel.

Trial and error is right Audrey. It's a matter of finding what works, and a matter of coming to believe that the meds are not just taken as needed. When it comes to my disorder I've been on three different meds. I didn't think that any of them were all that beneficial for me because I did not personally feel they were helping me. Although others around me could see the noticeable change, I could not. There is also the tendency in the beginning when you first start to take the medicines to keep taking them until you feel better, and then you start to believe that maybe you never needed the medicines in the first place, or that now that you feel better you no longer have to take them. So you stop. Then you start to need them again, and the cycle begins anew.

I suffered from crippling post partum depression after my triplets were born. I tried several different medications and ended up with one I felt worked for me.

Since my darling mama has died I have been battling the blues again... More medication and the one that worked before didn't work this time... Odd isn't it?

Audrey @ Sun Dec 18, 2005 4:16 pm wrote:I suffered from crippling post partum depression after my triplets were born. I tried several different medications and ended up with one I felt worked for me.

Since my darling mama has died I have been battling the blues again... More medication and the one that worked before didn't work this time... Odd isn't it?

I'm truly sorry to hear that Audrey. I hope you can find something that will work for you and help you to start feeling better. Although it is very understandable that you feel the blues after losing someone so close to you, it must be very hard.

I'm learning more about depression and about bi-polar disorder here so thanks you guys.

I never thought Lizzie suffered from depression, tho.
That's wy I'm asking if it's possible to maybe come up with something (some diagnosis) which would improve the person with morphine.
I also do not mean to imply Lizzie kept taking morphine and became addicted which would lead to more problems.

I am asking if we know of a disorder which morphine would have calmed- and opinined that in the future Lizzie took drugs or some drug to keep her *stable.*

Lizzie possibly may have seemed calm to people on the day because she had the bromide. It's more potent than we have thought, I find recently.

I also think it's possible V. Lincoln tried a theory of epilepsy because maybe she didn't want Lizzie to be responsible for her actions? Thinking Lizzie did it and then finding a way to explain why it wasn't her fault?
That's putting the cart before the horse- I'd like to start at the end and go backwards.
Start with the morphine and see what that fits. I'm only starting with morphine because that was Dr. Bowen's choice.

aside from a pain medication, it seems to me it would have to be for some sort of anxiety disorder - although morphine it a pretty strong medication to be giving anyone for such a reason, especially for any significant period of time.

perhaps it was readily available to dr bowen, and that's why he used it? although again, why he would allow its continued use is not clear unless it wasn't yet know how addictive it could be. i would think that following its use in the civil war, morphine addicts would have been "on the radar," so
to speak, at least?

my thought is that bowen wasn't not prescribing morphine as a regular course of treatment for any existing disorders, but that on that fateful Aug day, he felt he was doing the best he could for Lizzie, giving her a very strong sedative, "numbing" her to the horror which she had discovered, and ensuring the girl would be able to get some rest.

but again, why he would CONTINUE to give morphine to her instead of some other drug that was kess addictive? could it be that there wasn't much else to choose from?

note: a street name for morphine is "Miss Emma."

I thought these were interesting...The first shows some handy information about not just bromo caffiene, but bromides in general. This is the other medicine that was administer to Lizzie by Dr. Bowen, and is about the equivalent of taking an aspirin.

Nervousness

( Originally Published 1940 )

"Headache, fatigue, "nervous stomach," anxiety and insomnia are among the symptoms of everyday nervousness or neurosis for which bromides are taken. In moderate doses, for short periods and under the supervision of a physician, the drug can give a deal of comfort. But the relief is temporary and symptoms will return unless the underlying nervous condition is eased or corrected.

Some people show an idiosyncrasy or sensitivity to the drug and cannot take even moderate amounts of bromides without getting a bromide eruption. This eruption resembles acne very closely, and dermatologists usually ask patients with acne whether they are taking bromide preparations or headache remedies.

In large doses and taken over a period of weeks or months, the drug tends to accumulate in the tissues and cause symptoms of poisoning. Headache, "nervous indigestion," anxiety and nervousness may reappear with increased intensity. Digestive disturbances may be particularly marked. Even new mental symptoms may appear. And it occasionally happens that these symptoms become so alarming that the patient is believed to be suffering from a serious mental disturbance and is committed to a psychopathic hospital. Since bromides, like ordinary salt (sodium chloride), are excreted by the kidneys, intoxication is more likely to occur in those with kidney disease or in elderly people, in whom kidney function is frequently somewhat impaired. "

http://www.oldandsold.com/articles35/he ... e-42.shtml



http://www.ephemeratown.com/item-detail ... d=1&ID=854

http://glswrk-auction.com/063.htm

Yes SGuthmann, that is close to what I mean. That Bowen happened upon a drug which helped Lizzie, and that's why he continued it. It was an accidental finding, on his part.
That would include the continued use. At least for a time.
We hear that Lizzie wasn't upset, yet she is given *sedation*?
The bromide, BTW, was more than an aspirin, I think, Missy.
In the book Devil In The White City they talk about a bromide addiction.

It's funny- but if we were talking about EMMA- this all would make more sense to me... Because she had kidney damage.

Hmm.. an anxiety disorder, huh?

Kat @ Sun Dec 18, 2005 10:15 pm wrote:
The bromide, BTW, was more than an aspirin, I think, Missy.

I was referring to it's equivalent in use. It was used for head aches and such, which is what aspirin is used for.

Many patients, moreover, need a crutch to help them get along until a better adjustment can be made. The sedative drugs such as the bromides and phenobarbital provide such a temporary support. Unfortunately many people tend to live and sleep on their crutches; and what was intended as a temporary solace or support becomes a poison that endangers physical and mental health.

This was also on the site which I provided.

I had thought bromides were innocuous until I read that book and found out how potent they were, that's what I meant that I didn't think it was like an aspirin.
I used to think it was like an aspirin.

I saw that summation show on OJ Saturday night I think? That MSNBC Investigates show? I think.
That show is for aliens BTW- anyone who never heard of the case- Like OJ for people who just woke up from a decade long coma.
Anyway, it did remind me of the similarities in the Borden case and the OJ case. And also reminded me of all the felons who committed their murders while intoxicated or under the influence of drugs.
Also, Harry recently found an item on jails and it talked about the lack of certain kinds of crime during Prohibition and while job pay was up. It implied one of the major reasons the jails were almost empty was because people weren't drinking.

Lizzie might have very well have suffered from bipolar. One minute she's"up" and then "down"or just being very anixous. I suffer from this type of illness. It's a pain sometimes.

Kat @ Mon Dec 19, 2005 2:55 am wrote:I had thought bromides were innocuous until I read that book and found out how potent they were, that's what I meant that I didn't think it was like an aspirin.
I used to think it was like an aspirin.

I saw that summation show on OJ Saturday night I think? That MSNBC Investigates show? I think.
That show is for aliens BTW- anyone who never heard of the case- Like OJ for people who just woke up from a decade long coma.
Anyway, it did remind me of the similarities in the Borden case and the OJ case. And also reminded me of all the felons who committed their murders while intoxicated or under the influence of drugs.
Also, Harry recently found an item on jails and it talked about the lack of certain kinds of crime during Prohibition and while job pay was up. It implied one of the major reasons the jails were almost empty was because people weren't drinking.

There are some theories that do state that alcohol tends to make an individuals chance of committing a crime a lot higher, because it lowers their inhibitions and clouds thier judgment. There have also been studies done which show that the violent crime rate rises in proportion to the heat. The hotter it is, the higher the incidence of crime. But I think that Lizzie was too coherent that day for her to have been drinking alcohol.

Part of Allen's info:

In connexion with eclampsia, or even in its place, there often take place characteristic mental disturbances which begin very suddenly (dream or twilight states), last but a short time and pass, usually leaving no trace in the memory. These attacks show themselves outwardly in characteristic impulsive acts—as for instance in aimless wanderings (many cases of military desertion are due to such attacks), or in delirious confused conditions, mostly of a horrifying nature (fire, blood, ghosts, etc.). Such patients are often very dangerous...

Isn't eclampsia the hypertension of pregnancy? Could pregnancy, abortion, post-partum depression really play a part?

It is interesting to note that about the same time as the murders, the Evening Standard had stories about a Fall River doctor, Dr. Noble, who got in some trouble concerning the death of a girl on whom he had performed an abortion...

Well, we do have a bloody pail and Lizzie sent for Dr. Bowen tho her father was dead.
But she didsn't burn enough clothes to have bled much.
That's a new one!

Some of the problem with trying to identify a mental illness or aberration on the part of Lizzie, is that most people think the murder of Abby was planned- if not Andrew's murder.
So wanderng around in a fog isn't an option with Abby's killer, I don't think.
I feel we're investigating good options tho.

Some info on eclampsia (It seems to be a seizure presenting condition):


http://www.emedicine.com/med/topic633.htm


Tracy...