Lizzie Borden Society Forum

Could it be that the murders were committed by a left-handed person? In reading the blood evidence testimony, it seems that blood spatters to the east, west, and north. Very little, if any, to the south. This is consistent with a left-handed person standing to the west of each victim. A hatchet is swung from somewhere beyond the shoulder (away from the shoulder) to the target which is usually centered to the user. In other words, for a right-handed person, the direction of swing is from high to low and from right to left. I've used both hatchets and axes and this is consistent with my usage.

In Abby's case, blood seems to be found on the bureau and on the baseboard near the window. Little, if any, is found on the bed. In Andrew's case, no blood at all is found spattered toward the center of the room, but is found on the wall behind the sofa.

The ceilings in my house are nine feet. I can touch the ceiling with a hatchet while standing flat-footed on the floor. If I were "swinging for the fence" with a hatchet, I would probably leave a good deal of blood on the ceiling. Perhaps the murderer was not very tall and/or not swinging the hatchet very hard.

Would a woman swing a hatchet in a different manner than a man?

I see no one has replied.
The left-hand or right handedness of the assailant has been discussed before in depth probably to the point of people becoming cross-eyed.
Maybe someone will respond. Susan is good at this topic.
Otherwise maybe you can be pointed toward an archive thread?

The attack from the west is an interesting point!
That seems unusual in its consistency, doesn't it?

I apologize for the re-hash of old ideas, definitely indicative of "newbie syndrome"! I have (clearly) not read anywhere near all of the previous postings.

The spatial concept seems very consistent, especially the lack of blood to the south in each case. While Abby's skull shows a void to the right rear, the contusions on her face are on the center and left, which could indicate she fell facing right which puts the right rear of her head uppermost. The direction of the incision would be a better indicator, however.

I'm off to the archives!

Yooper @ Tue Apr 11, 2006 11:04 am wrote:Could it be that the murders were committed by a left-handed person? In reading the blood evidence testimony, it seems that blood spatters to the east, west, and north. Very little, if any, to the south. This is consistent with a left-handed person standing to the west of each victim. A hatchet is swung from somewhere beyond the shoulder (away from the shoulder) to the target which is usually centered to the user. In other words, for a right-handed person, the direction of swing is from high to low and from right to left. I've used both hatchets and axes and this is consistent with my usage.

In Abby's case, blood seems to be found on the bureau and on the baseboard near the window. Little, if any, is found on the bed. In Andrew's case, no blood at all is found spattered toward the center of the room, but is found on the wall behind the sofa.

The ceilings in my house are nine feet. I can touch the ceiling with a hatchet while standing flat-footed on the floor. If I were "swinging for the fence" with a hatchet, I would probably leave a good deal of blood on the ceiling. Perhaps the murderer was not very tall and/or not swinging the hatchet very hard.

Would a woman swing a hatchet in a different manner than a man?

I believe this was covered in the Trial Records, as reported by Porter and some other writers.

Another thought, I seem to remember from an EMT class taken many years ago that brain tissue has the same effect on clothing that bleach does. Was there ever any mention of "bleach spots" on clothing?

I don't recall 'bleach spots' being mentioned, but here is the link for the evidence list and other things from LABVML.


http://www.lizzieandrewborden.com/Crime ... idence.htm

Tracy...

Yooper @ Wed Apr 12, 2006 12:04 pm wrote:Another thought, I seem to remember from an EMT class taken many years ago that brain tissue has the same effect on clothing that bleach does. Was there ever any mention of "bleach spots" on clothing?

Really? I'd think it would leave grease spots, since brains are mostly fat. OTOH, I do know that many cultures use brains to tan animal hides. (One brain is enough to tan the hide of the animal it came from.) So clearly there are a lot more chemicals in the brain than just what you'd find in a pail of lard.

I am fascinated!

Brain tissue is not a lipid, if I remember correctly, it is basically protein.

Yooper @ Thu Apr 13, 2006 7:39 am wrote:Brain tissue is not a lipid, if I remember correctly, it is basically protein.

We're both right. Having much Google-fu, I found a chart:

Composition of Brain and Muscle (I deleted all the muscle bits, since they are not germane)

Whole Brain (%)
Water 77 to 78
Lipids 10 to 12
Protein 8
Carbohydrate 1
Soluble organic substances 2
Inorganic salts 1
(Reference: McIlwain, H. and Bachelard, H.S., Biochemistry and the Central Nervous System, Edinburgh: Churchill Livingstone, 1985)

http://staff.washington.edu/chudler/facts.html#brain

In any case, it's going to be the soluble organic substances and inorganic salts that will have a bleaching action.

Well done, Wordweaver! My memory has faded a bit over time. I do remember that the EMT instructor told us of an incident where he had gotten some brain tissue on a dark blue jacket, and when he had it laundered (right away!) there were "bleached" spots where the brain tissue had been.

Jeff and Lynn, fascinating stuff, thanks! The thought came to me about the description of Lizzie's Bedford cord dress, besides being soiled and paint covered, it was also listed as faded. Could there have been faded spots too due to brain tissue spattering on the dress? I think had the dress been bloodstained and Lizzie wasn't a prime suspect, she could have removed the stains at a later date. But, if there were bleached spots on it too, it would pretty much be ruined, no saving it for later use.

i don't think i've ever understood this left-handed vs. right-handed subject. that's not to say it has no merit. there is the interesting consistency, as already pointed out -- that the murderer appears to have basically faced eastward for both murders. but i'm assuming the killer used both hands -- in other words, does anyone know if a person would tend to chop a log differently if left-handed as opposed to right-handed? i don't feel like looking this up right now, and it's been so long i may be wrong -- but, in particular abby's head -- the blows were "beveled" -- meaning the axe came leftward and rightward -- as you would chop a log in half? in abby's case, i believe there was blood on the bed, which is to say southward.

Eugene, I think in a nutshell it would be if you are left handed, your swings with a hatchet would start from the left and go to the right and if right handed, just the opposite. I just tried an experiment, I grabbed a sauce pan two handed and whacked a pillow with it about 18 times. I'm right handed and most of my swings were from right to left, though there were a few left to right swings and a couple of directly overhead down swings.

Another point (which may have been made previously) is the randomness of the blows with respect to Abby. This could indicate a bit of a struggle, but it could also indicate someone thoroughly inexperienced at the task. In Andrew's case, it clould be that the murderer has a bit of experience, fewer misdirected blows and only about half as many blows overall.

I have no idea how much force is necessary to penetrate bone with a hatchet, but it might be a good deal more than we expect.

Would a two-handed swing tend to get more blood on the murderer?

Yooper @ Fri Apr 14, 2006 10:01 am wrote:Another point (which may have been made previously) is the randomness of the blows with respect to Abby. This could indicate a bit of a struggle, but it could also indicate someone thoroughly inexperienced at the task. In Andrew's case, it clould be that the murderer has a bit of experience, fewer misdirected blows and only about half as many blows overall.

I have no idea how much force is necessary to penetrate bone with a hatchet, but it might be a good deal more than we expect.

Would a two-handed swing tend to get more blood on the murderer?

Well, the thing about Andrew is he was supposedly taking a nap on that sofa. If so, how hard is it to kill a sleeping old man on a sofa?

Andrew would have been less apt to struggle, certainly, but the effectiveness of a hatchet would have been pretty much the same in either case.

***I have no idea how much force is necessary to penetrate bone with a hatchet, but it might be a good deal more than we expect. ***


this has always been important for us to understand -- and we don't since we don't do this. but in a previous issue of The Hatchet (it must have been a 2004 issue, i would have to go find it -- but this may be in print form soon enough) someone involved in the discovery channel special wrote an article and described his experiment on an animal head. this whole article is good. anyway -- the upshot was -- surprise at the strength of the bone matter and how difficult it is to break through it, the axe tends to bounce off, etc. i appreciated this report since i had always wondered. but to judge from this experiment, someone would have had quite a workout to do that much damage to the back of abby's head.

this is important to consider, i've always believed. the human skull is a well-made thing, designed to take quite a bit. one difference between the slaughter of abby and andrew -- various things have been made of it, but the skull is much thinner in the face than in the back of the head.

Good point, Eugene.
The Hatchet issue is:
Oct/Nov 2004, Vol. 1, Issue 5, article titled "A TV Producer Has an Axe: A Look Behind the Scenes of the Lizzie Borden Special," by Tim Evans.

He was the producer of the video Stefani and I were in, and was the director and the one who asked the questions of us off screen.

(I remember that night of the day we filmed we had returned late to our hotel room only to find a message on our room phone. Tim had called to take us to dinner, but we had stayed out that night seeing the sites- including Oak Grove Cemetery- and missed him. We happened to bump into him when the elavator doors opened at lobby level next morning as we were leaving and at least got to say goodbye. Nice chap.)

Arnold Brown's book mentions an incident when Willy used a hatchet to put down a horse. Wasn's 'pole-axing' a method to kill cattle? One whack on the head would stun or kill a large cow. What was the usual method used in those days? Or today?

A "pole axe" was literally a war axe mounted on a long, pole-like handle.

A "poll axe" had a hammer-like head or "poll" on one side of the head and an axe blade on the other.

Cattle were usually dispatched by stunning and then cutting the throat so they would bleed out. The idea was to leave the heart pumping to purge the blood. The cow or steer would have likely been struck on or near the "poll", the area between the horns at the front of the skull.

Kat @ Sat Apr 15, 2006 4:42 am wrote:Good point, Eugene.
The Hatchet issue is:
Oct/Nov 2004, Vol. 1, Issue 5, article titled "A TV Producer Has an Axe: A Look Behind the Scenes of the Lizzie Borden Special," by Tim Evans.

He was the producer of the video Stefani and I were in, and was the director and the one who asked the questions of us off screen.

(I remember that night of the day we filmed we had returned late to our hotel room only to find a message on our room phone. Tim had called to take us to dinner, but we had stayed out that night seeing the sites- including Oak Grove Cemetery- and missed him. We happened to bump into him when the elavator doors opened at lobby level next morning as we were leaving and at least got to say goodbye. Nice chap.)

I've been trying to order that October 2004, issue and I can't seem to get past the "Add To Cart." I hit on that and end up going no where. So, I can't order the issue. I've tried about six times in the last two days

PM or email Stef. She can help you with that.


Tracy...

I have to wonder if somehow throwing a towel or rag over the head would minimize blood spatter. It would be an obstacle to chop through and the murderer wouldn't readily see what was being accomplished.

Yes, and someone mentioned earlier that a towel or such item would possibly have left fibers.


Tracy...

The claw hammer hatchet had cotton fibres.
They never explained those.

I think Lizzie could have saved herself a great deal of trouble with the dress if she had just said that when she discovered her father she threw herself on his body.

No changing the dress, no hiding it, no burning it and it would have made her story so much more believable.

But, if there was too much blood on the dress and a lot of it in the wrong places for that scenario then she may have had to get rid of it.

Harry @ Mon Apr 17, 2006 7:27 am wrote:I think Lizzie could have saved herself a great deal of trouble with the dress if she had just said that when she discovered her father she threw herself on his body.

No changing the dress, no hiding it, no burning it and it would have made her story so much more believable.

But, if there was too much blood on the dress and a lot of it in the wrong places for that scenario then she may have had to get rid of it.

Where can I read the facts about this "blood stained dress"?
No one else has ever claimed this, not from the eyewitness stories from those who were there at the time. The fact is they didn't even notive much about the dress, based on the different testimony. IF there was red blook on a blue dress it would have stood out and be noticed by all. Bridget was the first to see Lizzie, then Mrs Buffington (?), the next door neighbor.

Medium velocity impact spatter
Medium velocity impact spatter (MVIS) is generally produced when objects traveling between 1.5 m/s and 7.5 m/s come in contact with a blood source. The preponderance of stains is generally between 1 mm and 3 mm in diameter. Mechanisms that could produce this type of pattern include blunt force trauma or cutting/stabbing actions.


I've been thinking a lot about the spatter patterns. A general rule is the higher the energy of the impact, the smaller the drops. After the heart stops pumping really the only spatter comes from the weapon hitting the blood source. The force behind the swings would determine the size of the droplets. If the blood source is stationary, as Abby lying on the floor, then it would be in a more contained area.

There could have been more blood than the witnesses realized. I've always thought the blows were not wide swings, but smaller and close to the body as was mentioned earlier. I've often stated this, and I totally agree. Was the carpet a dark color? What color was it? Would the blood stand out? The spatter could've been fine enough that the drops blended into the carpet and were not noticed. They may also have dried before the body was discovered and thus were harder to discover, because they wouldn't cause any liquid smearing or contact transfer. There was at least 90 minutes between murders, Abby's body was discovered later still. That's plenty of time for small drops to dry.

How much blood comes off the hatchet as it is swung? The forward swing would be at a greater velocity than the backswing and the blood would follow its velocity vector, tangent to the curve of swing, with gravity also pulling downward.

Would the blood spatter from the hatchet striking the head be a more random (360 degree) pattern?

Does the orientation of Andrew's wounds indicate where the murderer was standing? The skull photos seem to show a somewhat linear arrangement on the left side of the head from the jaw extending to the side of the head above the ear. The obvious linearity of a hatchet wound should indicate the probability of where a person would have to stand to inflict the wounds.

Yooper @ Mon Apr 17, 2006 6:00 pm wrote: The obvious linearity of a hatchet wound should indicate the probability of where a person would have to stand to inflict the wounds.

I agree with you on that. The deepest point of the wound also tells a lot about where the killer was probably standing in my opinion.

Oops. This is NOT a test but a goof.

Based upon the somewhat linear aspect of Andrew's wounds and the position the body, specifically the head, was found, it looks to me like the murderer stood in one of three places. If the murderer used his/her left hand, he/she stood at the end of the sofa above Andrew's head. If the right hand was used, he/she stood behind the door frame going into the dining room and swung more "outward" than usual. If the murderer stood facing Andrew from the front, either hand or both hands might have been used to produce the apparent linearity, although left handed would have been awkward.

Can we infer anything from the blood spattering with respect to hatchet swings? The lack of blood projected outward into the room might eliminate the killer standing in front of Andrew.

Yooper @ Tue Apr 18, 2006 9:44 am wrote: Can we infer anything from the blood spattering with respect to hatchet swings? The lack of blood projected outward into the room might eliminate the killer standing in front of Andrew.

I watched an episode of Forensics Academy not too long ago. They were demonstrationing how blood spatter patterns can be made, and what each one can tell you. What they were doing were recreating crime scenes using the actual photos so the students could analyze the patterns. It was very interesting. I watched it because as a project for one of my classes we were broken up into groups to create our own scenes. Which were presented during class to the rest of the students and the professor for a grade. Very interesting project, but ultimately also very stressful.

One of the demonstrations was a beating with a metal pipe. It was shown that most of the spatter ended up on the wall behind the 'victim'. There was much blood, but hardly any at all on the attacker. The weapon threw most of it forward away from the killer. It was also pointed out that different types of weapons will project varying amounts. Smooth weapons such as the pipe will cast the spatter more freely than a rough or non- porous weapon.

Allen,
This would then favor the killer standing in front of Andrew.