Lizzie Borden Society Forum

Please forgive me if this has been discussed before, but what is the grand total of all the crime scene and autopsy photos that we have of Andrew and Abby? Is it limited to the ones that are included on this site? Or are there more in the archives or the historical society that are just unsuitable for publication? I hate to sound morbid but I figured that the crime scene photographers must have taken more photos than I am aware of. If so, perhaps the other photos that are not genuinely known can shed some light, perhaps yield evidence or provoke some thought?

A bit of weird story of how I first saw the Abby autopsy photo, the one from behind with her head shaven, was while I was sitting on the couch in the very room where Andrew was murdered. It was 2am and I was up until that hour talking to the caretaker who was dressed like Andrew and had an Andrew Borden beard and who was sitting on the same side of the couch where Andrew had been murdered. It was a weird and surreal moment. At 2am, after a long discussion of the case and Lizzie in general, I announced that I had to go to bed and that I was a little frightened of walking up the back staircase (I was staying in the attic in the Knowlton room), when he said, "Oh! You asked me before but I forgot! Have you seen the autopsy photographs!!!!" to which he whipped out a hard covered book and turned to the said photos.

I looked at them and got incredibly creeped out. I stared up and saw Andrew Borden sitting on the left side of the sitting room couch grinning at me holding up a photograph of Abby's shattered skull.

After a long pause, I nervously said "thanks, I've never seen those photos before" and then said my good nights. He laughed and reclined back on the couch in the style of Andrew's death photo. He knew in humerous way he was scaring the daylights out of me.

Leaving that strange site, I had to go through the kitchen, up the back staircase and to the attic. Needless to say, I had a little trouble getting to sleep!

Thought you guys might find that funny.

I was not too scared any of the nights I stayed. One of the nights when my niece and I stayed in the guest room, I was flat out exhausted from running around all day in Fall River, but my niece wanted to stay up and talk to some of the other guests. So, I went in THERE, in the dark, alone. I did lean over the side of the bed and say "Good night Abby", for good luck. I barely remember anything after that. For me each night was a great night's sleep. I did however get a bit creeped out when after the 'tour', I went back down to the cellar to look around and Eleanor, not know I was down there, turned the light out and shut the door. THAT was a bit scary for the first few seconds. But it was SO funny to see the looks on the faces of the people standing in the kitchen when I came back up through the door. It scared them to death. We all kind of let out a little scream...then we had a good laugh. I can hardly wait to go again.


Tracy...

http://www.lizzieandrewborden.com/Crime ... ceList.htm

"Preliminary Hearing in the Borden Case before Judge Blaisdell, August 25 through September 1, 1892. Fall River, MA: Fall River Historical Society."

pg. 186, Dr. Dolan talks about having the skulls photographed “Monday or Tuesday of this week”, which would be August 22 or 23, 1892.

pg. 196, Dr. Dolan specifies the photographs that were taken of the crime scenes, and describes the order in which they were taken:

#1 pic=Abby slightly moved
#2 pic=Abby with bed removed (side shot)
#3 pic= Abby with bed put back again
#4 pic= Abby downstairs
#5 pic=Andrew unmoved
~~~~

"List of Exhibits at trial
15 - 19. Photographs of bodies."

-*Abby downstairs* is the picture of her partial autopsy, "15 thru 19" is inclusive = 5.
But there are 7 total.
________________________________________________

There is one more picture of Andrew and the one more of Abby. The one of Abby (below) that specifies *huge hole" is probably the one with the matted hair. The other Abby would be the shaved head picture.

The extra "Andrew" is the autopsy photo where he is lying on the undertaker's board. Ashton calls it a *naked picture of Andrew on the floor.*

From "The Hip-bath Collection" of Jennings, photos listed:
"...side views of pool of blood, Mrs. Borden with feet showing, Mrs. Borden's matted switch, Andrew Borden on the horsehair couch, Andrew naked on the floor, skulls--front with hatchet marks, Mrs. Borden with huge hole in side of head."
--From- Ashton, Barbara. "The Hip-Bath Collection." Proceedings: Lizzie Borden Conference. Ed. Jules R. Ryckebusch. Portland, ME: King Philip Publishing Co., 1993. 211-214.

Tracy and Kat, you have nerves of steel. There is no way I could spend the night there. I get creeped out just thinking about it. My son and his family are thinking of moving to Massachusetts soon ( ) so maybe I will get a chance to visit Lizzie's house and take the tour. But that would be it for me.

Angel...I was much more nervous BEFORE I stayed there. After I learned a bit more on my way to the house and during the tour, it was not bad at all. You can do it !


Tracy...

when pigs fly. I couldn't even get my 6 foot 3 1/2 inch 240 lb. hunk of a husband to stay with me.

Angel @ Thu Apr 27, 2006 10:37 am wrote:when pigs fly. I couldn't even get my 6 foot 3 1/2 inch 240 lb. hunk of a husband to stay with me.

Thayne refuses to go as well.... He claims it is because he has no interest in Lizzie... But that is not a good excuse. I make him go to plenty of places and do plenty of things he has no interest in! I think he is chicken!

Oh Angel...you crack me up. I still think you would be fine once you got there, but I understand also that what can be scary for one may not be scary for another and vice versa. I am extremely freaked out by the idea of the Ouija board........(shuddering).


Tracy...

When you actually arrive at the house during the day, it has a wonderful and quaint feel to it. I thought I was going to get creeped out because Lizzie Borden photos and the crime scene photos used to scare me as a child. I went to house not just to satisfy my interest in the case but to conquer some old fears that I had from seeing those photographs at too young an age. When I checked it and started socializing with the guests, it felt perfectly normal and natural. I even went upstairs to the bedroom where Abby was murdered all by myself and meditated upon the scene. It felt "normal"

However, when night fell, and I took the extended guests-only tour (the day tour is 40 minutes and there is a much longer multi-hour tour for registered guests in the evening), things started getting a bit dark and weird. And then by the time I was seated on the sitting room couch with the caretaker dressed as Andrew Borden at 2am staring at autopsy photos, suddenly the house turned haunted. Walking up the back staircase was the bravest thing I ever did. When I rounded the corner outside of Andrew and Abby's bedroom and heard a man laughing inside (there was a guest in there), and then I turned and saw the dark window at the end of the hallway (the window that is supposed to slam up and down mysteriously in the middle of the night), I almost whimpered. I suddenly had no "nerves of steel" but felt like a self-admitted coward.

I ran up the stairs, ignoring the sounds from the other bedrooms in the attic, and dove into my Knowlton Room, fully expecting to hear the ghostly sound of children laughing and the sound of marbles rolling across the floor.

But I'm glad I went and I will certainly go again some time this year. I just won't stay up till 2am looking at autopsy photos.

You are right Richard. Starting the visit of the house during daylight hours does take the edge off. The tour helps quite a bit too.


Tracy...

Audrey @ Thu Apr 27, 2006 11:47 am wrote:

Angel @ Thu Apr 27, 2006 10:37 am wrote:when pigs fly. I couldn't even get my 6 foot 3 1/2 inch 240 lb. hunk of a husband to stay with me.

Thayne refuses to go as well.... He claims it is because he has no interest in Lizzie... But that is not a good excuse. I make him go to plenty of places and do plenty of things he has no interest in! I think he is chicken!

Yes indeed. Mine has a big yellow streak of feathers going down his back to boot. Anything that might have to do with ghosts.

I've never stayed in the house. We were graciously invited to stay last time Stefani lectured in Fall River. Part of me was hesitant because of the OUIJA and a psychic was going to have the house previous to our possibly staying, and the larger part of me was sick! For that, I needed full privacy- I even had to get my own hotel room!

I think I would stay now, just not go to bed!

That's the solution! Stay up all night talking. I could handle that.

There would be no need for sleep! I would want to remain awake all the night trying to catch vibes and energy from the place.

I was a little disappointed that it wasn't creepier than it was actually. Maybe next time I'll get my wish and actually see/hear something. It was actually the best nights sleep I'd had for some time.

I know that I wouldn't be able to sleep a wink in the house--partially because it is "THE house", and partially because being in a different environment for a night always throws me off.
But I don't like the idea of a Ouija board one bit! I'm surprised that they have one there, since most psychics tell you to stay as far away from them as possible.
(Though, I will admit that I used one to contact Lizzie, back in high school. And, she wouldn't answer whether she had committed the crimes or not!)

My brother and I were just discussing the crime scene and autopsy photos a couple of days ago. Mostly about what you can see in the photos as well as what was known to be there and was taken away or moved. In the photos of Abby, the camp chair that was at her head is gone as well as the cane chair that was near the side of the bureau. In the photo of Andrew on the sofa, the one pic that is not cut down, you can see a table near the fireplace, apparently that normally sat in the center of the room.

The main reason we were discussing the sitting room is that my brother is going to work on a project for me, building a scale model of the sitting room for my Lizzie doll so that she will have some sort of home. I tried to pull together a rough idea of how the furnishings were situated in the room from the different testimony available. Heres what I came up with, note that none of it is to exact scale.

They hired a photographer to take picturs of the bodies. We've seen them, but no mention if they were others. Probably, but suppressed and then destroyed, maybe. A question of good taste, then or now.
I'm sure you can find places on the Internet with all the gory pictures that can turn your stomach. Such details are not needed. Defense lawyers will object to photos that are too gory as to prejudice the jury against the defendant. Raising emotions are not conducive to rational thoughts.
I welcome any contrary opinions.

stuartwsa @ Thu Apr 27, 2006 8:43 pm wrote:I know that I wouldn't be able to sleep a wink in the house--partially because it is "THE house", and partially because being in a different environment for a night always throws me off.
But I don't like the idea of a Ouija board one bit! I'm surprised that they have one there, since most psychics tell you to stay as far away from them as possible.
(Though, I will admit that I used one to contact Lizzie, back in high school. And, she wouldn't answer whether she had committed the crimes or not!)

Its an emotional subjective thing. I wouldn't worry about sleeping in a room where someone died. Its the live people that you have to worry about! Ask Bridget for her reaction.

Susan, that is a cool idea! And with your fine attention to detail and your artist's eye, the project should be great!

OK- if we stay at the house this summer we will not sleep, agreed?
But no OUIJAs!

Thanks, Kat. My main issue with the project will be finding a "wallpaper" that is close to what was in the sitting room at the time. The scale of the model room is "play scale" size; Barbie sized-2 inches equals 1 foot. I could potentially find a wallpaper sample online, resize it and tile it to get a full repeat pattern and then print it out. Hmmm, just made me wonder the height of the fireplace mantel, hard to tell from the photos. Is it possible to lean on the mantel or is it a bit higher than that?

Anyone at the house can measure the mantle for you!

I hadn't thought of the proportion of a repeating pattern wallpaper. Sounds difficult.

Oh, its not so bad, all wallpaper and printed fabrics have a repeat pattern. Its just making sure that you have enough of the pattern so that it matches up top and bottom and side to side. I've painted some fabric designs in the past, so, I can usually pick out where the design ends and begins in the repeat. Then there is the question of the colors of the wallpaper, was it tone on tone or multi-hued? Since the furniture in the house was from earlier times, would Andrew have sprung for new wallpaper to keep up with the times or just live with what was put there in the 1870s? I'm guessing that the wallpaper may have been dated too.

OH My Gosh! You need Bill Pavao!