Lizzie Borden Society Forum

I was watching unsolved mysteries a few days ago, and one of the gentlemen said something interesting (which makes me think he thinks Lizzie did it). But he said something to the effect of that Lizzie slept in the house the night of the murders, the bodies were on the dining room table (which is fact). Now, if two people were murdered in my house (parapharsing his statement) and the bodies were left on the dining room table, and some mad killer is out there, let's just say I would'nt sleep in the house even with a M-16 in my bed. Yeah Lizzie did it

I have to agree with him. I wouldnt be sleeping in house where two people were killed, the bodies are still in the house, and there is a supposed "mad" killer on the loose. I would be staying with friends. Even Bridget the maid went to stay with friends and never entered the house again.

Lizzie had a police guard and several other people in the house, so it may have seemed safe enough to her. The house was the object of idle curiosity and a returning killer would have a better chance of being observed. On the other hand, if the killer was truly "mad", then perhaps it wouldn't matter how well guarded the house was.

I wouldn't stay in a house where a murder had been committed earlier in the day......

But even more important in my mind... I wouldn't hang out in the back doorway, or anywhere else for that matter, in a house where I had just discovered a freshly murdered body.

Even though wakes and funerals were held in the homes in those days and people were more used to having the dead in their midst, those dead normally died of natural causes. To have your father and stepmother brutally murdered in your own home is not quite the same thing.

The safety factor wouldn't so much be important to me as much as the overall atmosphere. It must have been chilling.

Me, I'm out of there. But if I was guilty I may want to stay to keep an eye on things and see what I can learn about the investigation.

I agree that the atmosphere was a consideration, probably the reason for Bridget's vapor trail, but there were others besides Lizzie who thought the house was safe enough, even with Lizzie there.

Come to think of it, immediately after the fact, with a murderer as near the house as they will ever be, Bridget runs for the doctor, returns to the house, runs for Alice Russell, and returns a second time. Odd behavior for someone concerned for her own safety.

I agree with Audrey - no way on God's green earth would I stay in a house where, minutes earlier, I had discovered the brutality murdered body of my father.

twinsrwe @ Wed May 10, 2006 9:29 am wrote:I agree with Audrey - no way on God's green earth would I stay in a house where, minutes earlier, I had discovered the brutality murdered body of my father.

I would think a person's natural instinct of self preservation would have kicked in... I don't know that I would have even thought about Bridget!

As long as I didn't have my children to save--- I would have been out of there like a shot out of a gun! Those locks wouldn't have stopped me!

Lizzie was sufficiently in control of herself to make the correlation between "serious wound" and "doctor". Her next consideration was Alice Russell? Not Abby or the police? Mrs. Churchill was also sent for a doctor, but it took a bystander to think of the cops. Abby ran a distant fourth as a consideration.

I think Lizzie knew she was perfectly safe in the house.

My step-father died (pancreatic cancer) on my mother's couch. I had no problem sitting there with his body until the mortuary cam to get him. I had no trouble sitting on that couch in the days which followed...HOWEVER, had he been brutally murdered, I would probably have not had the same feelings. Because of my years/experience working in a hospital, I can ususally remain calm during a crisis. However...after, when things have calmed a bit, etc....I may need a stiff drink.


Tracy...

Brown has the clear answer. Why would Lizzie be afraid to be there when she had just previously watched the killer, her half brother take his leave. He was gone. She knew it. She had nothing to fear standing in the doorway alone. The behavior backs up the Brown theory. As for sleeping there with the corpses laid out stinking up the dining room, are we sure she in fact was there? Who else was with her? Emma, Alice? Bridget left but she was not invested in the plan, so as far as she knew it was not safe. Lizzie and Emma knew it was.

May I ask what IS the bonafide evidence that Billy Borden was the illegitimate son of Andrew ? Was he mentioned in any wills ? Is he mentioned by that name in any testimony ?

In Rebello, pg. 130, it is stated that Brown got the information from Ellan Egan's graddaughter's husband, Lewis "Pete" Peterson, for his theory. Does anyone have a copy of Mr. Peterson's Letter to the Editor form the Fall River News Herald, 6-8-95 ?


Tracy...

snokkums @ Wed May 10, 2006 6:39 am wrote:
I was watching unsolved mysteries a few days ago, and one of the gentlemen said something interesting (which makes me think he thinks Lizzie did it). But he said something to the effect of that Lizzie slept in the house the night of the murders, the bodies were on the dining room table (which is fact). Now, if two people were murdered in my house (parapharsing his statement) and the bodies were left on the dining room table, and some mad killer is out there, let's just say I would'nt sleep in the house even with a M-16 in my bed. Yeah Lizzie did it

I have to agree with him. I wouldnt be sleeping in house where two people were killed, the bodies are still in the house, and there is a supposed "mad" killer on the loose. I would be staying with friends. Even Bridget the maid went to stay with friends and never entered the house again.

The bodies were not kept on the dining room table- but on undertakers boards in the dining room. They probably had ice placed beneath them also, to keep them cool.

Stephen Manchester wanted back into his house in the worst way after the police took it over. They wanted him off the property completely. He compromised stubbornly by staying in the barn. He had demanded to be allowed to stay in his home. Don't know why- whether he had an ulterior motive or what...
However, her body was finally removed to the "undertakers room." (May 30, 1893).

I still wouldn't stay in a house where two died bodies were nor where a murder had been committed. Think I would have been out of there. But, if I were the one that did the murder, then I wouldn't been worried about staying in the house.

Well, I didn't do it, but I might stay in the house now.

as for staying the night in the house now -- for some reason, i see myself in the guest room and taking a trip down the front stairs about 3 am. and waiting for sunrise on the sitting room sofa.

Not only did Lizzie stay in the house that night, but Uncle John Morse slept in the bedroom where Abby was murdered. The blood stains must have still been on the floor. I'm a little more concerned about how Uncle John could stay in that room, than how Lizzie could have stayed in the house.

If the police felt the need to protect members of the family, it was more easily accomplished with everyone remaining together. The Borden house would have to be guarded in any event, occupied or not. Remaining in the house also would have prevented the police from doing the most thorough investigation possible. I'm sure some sort of "safety in numbers" mentality existed among the occupants.

It's been shown in testimony that upon asking, we find that Morse moved to the little room in the attic after the killings.

I guess the story of Morse staying in the guest room was an urban legend. I can't remember what book I read that in.

Oh that's very possible -it adds a sensational aspect to the story!
Somewhere around here is a topic with the testimony as proof. I really should bring it out- but maybe you can find it?
Thanks for trusting me.
But anyone, please check me up anytime.

I have also wondered how they could stay in the house. Couldn't the police have protected them at a local hotel in adjoining rooms just as well? Didn't the Borden sisters hire a detective to follow the police to make sure there was no "planted" evidence? Seems some self-preservation there. If I had found my father butchered on the sofa, I would have screamed, passed out and when I came to, run like heck to the nearest door. Not stayed at the rear door and yelled I think someone has killed father to Mrs. Churchill. I would have been in the yard probably throwing up! So many strange things in this case.

I think I would first run to my father, check for signs of life- getting blood on me- then run hollering outside.

And yes, throw up.

{Like Bridget}.

I would think seeing half his face bashed in and half an eye hanging out and blood everywhere would be enough evidence that he was dead. I doubt I would pick up his arm to try and get a pulse. I'd run like crazy, screaming as I'd be afraid the murderer was still there.

Lizzie said she only saw blood and never entered the room. She did not know he was dead.
So if all she saw was a bloody facial area, then all I might see is a bloody facial area.
She wanted a doctor. She wouldn't need a doctor if she knew he was dead.
The eye was split in two, but not *hanging out* as quoted elsewhere.
I'm just going by what Lizzie said she saw.
So I would go closer to see him and yes touch him.
The doctor touched him to decide life was extinct.

Well, looking at the picture they took of the body, it would be enough for me to assume he was dead if I saw it. The doctor would have to check to see if there was a pulse so he could sign the death certificate.

The view we have in the photo is straight on from the south side of the room. My approach, if I were she, would be from the dining room doorway, from the north and then around the corner. Admittedly, she would be closer. Maybe in color it would be less obvious as to the extent of the wounds. There might be more contrast in the b/w photograph?
She at one point said she heard a groan before entering. If she thought she heard a groan, we might assume she did not know Andrew was yet dead.

But then if she was in on it and knew he was dead, she would say she heard a groan and have a doctor sent for etc. But I still say with a face half gone and no sound of struggling breath, she would have assumed he was dead. though if someone else killed Andy then she might have heard a groan as the first strike from the weapon hit. But could not the groan have been made by the killer as he/she swung the weapon?

I was thinking about your question: What is the bonafide evidence that Billy Borden was the illegitimate son of Andy? I would say there doesn't have to be any. If Billy Borden was brought up by his mother to believe it or if he just put two and two together about his mother shacking up with Andy and then he was born and decided on his own. It is Billy's mental state where the proof might lie. If HE believed it then he would believe that Andy wronged him and Abby did by marrying Andy instead of his mother. His belief could trigger the tragedies even though there wasn't any physical evidence ie birth certificate or Andy's acknowledgement etc. Just food for thought. Another way of looking at it.

Yooper @ Wed May 10, 2006 10:28 am wrote:Come to think of it, immediately after the fact, with a murderer as near the house as they will ever be, Bridget runs for the doctor, returns to the house, runs for Alice Russell, and returns a second time. Odd behavior for someone concerned for her own safety.

Wrong again!!! If there was a murder in a house, you are safest outside in the street.
About 20 yrs ago A. Kellerman concocted a report about gun safety in the house. "Having a gun made it 43 times more likely a person in the home would be killed than an intruder". That was a lie. Somebody looked into the statistics where people died when there was no gun in the house: it was 99 times more likely a person in the home would be killed than an intruder.
Kellerman used little-known statistics. There are about 3-4 times more suicides than murders, and most suicides take place in the home. Most murders take place between people who know each other. Contrary to some liars, most children are much safer in school than in their homes. There are always exceptions to the rules.
Abby and Andy would be alive if they both left the house at 9am, and didn't return until 5pm. But Andy had business at home, so he returned about 10:40. (I hope my memoory didn't fail here.)

Davo @ Mon Jul 31, 2006 4:44 pm wrote:I have also wondered how they could stay in the house. Couldn't the police have protected them at a local hotel in adjoining rooms just as well? Didn't the Borden sisters hire a detective to follow the police to make sure there was no "planted" evidence? Seems some self-preservation there. If I had found my father butchered on the sofa, I would have screamed, passed out and when I came to, run like heck to the nearest door. Not stayed at the rear door and yelled I think someone has killed father to Mrs. Churchill. I would have been in the yard probably throwing up! So many strange things in this case.

Today the family would be removed while the detectives and criminalists gathered evidence. People would not be allowed back unescorted. SOP
But this didn't happen with the Ramseys. did it?

Davo @ Tue Aug 01, 2006 11:12 am wrote:I was thinking about your question: What is the bonafide evidence that Billy Borden was the illegitimate son of Andy? I would say there doesn't have to be any. If Billy Borden was brought up by his mother to believe it or if he just put two and two together about his mother shacking up with Andy and then he was born and decided on his own. It is Billy's mental state where the proof might lie. If HE believed it then he would believe that Andy wronged him and Abby did by marrying Andy instead of his mother. His belief could trigger the tragedies even though there wasn't any physical evidence ie birth certificate or Andy's acknowledgement etc. Just food for thought. Another way of looking at it.

Yes, it could be an imagined fact. I wasn't there to examine and can't say for sure. Didn't I also mention this before. The missing birth certificate speaks for itself. I would also claim that there could have been other offspring of Andy.
PS
I also asked if Little Abby's story of being sent there that Thursday could have been made up after the fact. No documentary proof!!!

Yes, too bad DNA couldn't be done on Andy & Billy to know the truth.

I could never figure out why Lizzie did not take the 10 steps to the front door, fling it open and yell for help. The house is sitting right on top of the street with many people going by. Instead, she calls upstairs to Bridget. How did she even know Bridget was alive? The killer could have gotten her too whilst Lizzie was "in the barn". The killer could have been in the parlor, second floor landing, or downstairs in the cellar near the door where Lizzie calmly leaned looking out the screen. I agree with the cop who said "I don't like the girl"- and other comments indicating what Lizzie said and did was just not normal.

The killer obviously had selected the victims. If there was someone in the house who Lizzie knew and they were there she still would have run. If there was someone there she knew and she knew they had left, she would act the way she did as she knew she wasn't in any danger. If she didn't do the murders, then she was also in shock at what had unexpectedly happened.

Would Lizzie have been around when Andrew was an undertaker?
If so, death and dead bodies would not be out of the ordinary for her.
Had a friend whose father owned a funeral home and they lived above. She would ride her bike around the coffins and not think a thing about it.
Creeped us all out though. But was second nature to her.

Yes but it is a different thing if it's someone you love that's dead. And murdered so fouly.

It's my understanding that "undertaker" means something quite different in 1892- not an embalmer or mortician. The Montgomery version got that wrong. I have seen a receipt Andrew wrote out for his services which included placing an obituary in the paper, chairs for the guests, ice to pack the body and the pressing of a suit, etc. Undertakers then supplied items neccessary for a funeral. It is highly likely, being a carpenter that he at one time constructed wooden caskets.

There is an old newspaper ad for sale on eBay advertising Borden and Almy's undertaking business right now. Cue Twilight Zone music.......

http://cgi.ebay.com/BORDEN-ALMY-AD-Unde ... dZViewItem