Lizzie Borden Society Forum

It has been said that Lizzie had two bedrooms on the second floor of Maplecroft, one in the front of the house and one in the back of the house. One was Lizzie's summer bedroom one was her winter bedroom, I don't recall right now which one was which. I think it was also said that there is only one other bedroom on the second floor and that it is quite small compared to both of Lizzie's bedrooms. It was assumed that this other smaller bedroom must have been Emma's.

I don't know where that information came from, probably from friends I guess

What I don't understand is why Emma would, being half owner of Maplecroft let Lizzie have two large bedrooms for herself while she only has one smaller room. Lizzie could only sleep in one room at a time.

What I am wondering if Emma had one of the Larger bedrooms while she stayed at Maplecroft and if Lizzie took it over after Emma left.

If this has been mentioned already please let me know.

Wasn't Lizzie's 2nd bedroom part of the addition she added at a later time?

Also...Emma gave her larger room at 92 2nd St. to Lizzie and moved into the smaller adjoining room. At the moment I do not recall the date/reason.


Tracy...

She probably needed the space for her swelled head!

Yes, Audrey is right. The second bedroom on the back was added in 1909. After Emma left. Also added in 1909 was the back porch under the new bedroom and the garage outside.
I also don't know the source for the story that Emma had the smallest bedroom. Could it have been "Gramma?"
Her grandmother worked there for a short time.

This thread makes me wonder what type of house and floor plan Lizzie would have designed if she had been able to build a house to suit her from the ground up.

They did move in to a pre built house and I would imagine Lizzie took the 'master bedroom' for her own use and Emma was left to choose from the remaining rooms.

But can you imagine the difference to Lizzie between living in a house built in 1845, then living in jail for 10 months, then living in a home built in 1889, with one owner?
Wow, what a change!

Kat @ Wed May 10, 2006 9:59 pm wrote:Yes, Audrey is right. The second bedroom on the back was added in 1909. After Emma left. Also added in 1909 was the back porch under the new bedroom and the garage outside.
I also don't know the source for the story that Emma had the smallest bedroom. Could it have been "Gramma?"
Her grandmother worked there for a short time.

Wasn't it Mr. Dube's son that posted that information when he joined us here for a short while? Wish he would come back for awhile, so many questions about Maplecroft.

theebmonique @ Wed May 10, 2006 9:28 am wrote:Also...Emma gave her larger room at 92 2nd St. to Lizzie and moved into the smaller adjoining room. At the moment I do not recall the date/reason.

If I recall correctly, they switched bedrooms when Lizzie came back from Europe.

Lynn

Susan @ Thu May 11, 2006 4:00 am wrote:

Kat @ Wed May 10, 2006 9:59 pm wrote:Yes, Audrey is right. The second bedroom on the back was added in 1909. After Emma left. Also added in 1909 was the back porch under the new bedroom and the garage outside.
I also don't know the source for the story that Emma had the smallest bedroom. Could it have been "Gramma?"
Her grandmother worked there for a short time.

Wasn't it Mr. Dube's son that posted that information when he joined us here for a short while? Wish he would come back for awhile, so many questions about Maplecroft.

No, actually it was information passed on to me by the FRHS, a while ago.
I will scan and post it.
It's probably also in Rebello.

From the FRHS.
I think I posted this before, but I lost it from my computer.
Re-scanned.

Page 2

page 3- make sure to scroll all the way down.

That would explain it. I knew there was some kind of addition put on the back of the house but I thought it was just a back porch, I didn't know it was on the second floor as well. Sometimes with city records they have sketches of additions that are put on.

From what I understand the bigger of the bedrooms was next to Abby's bedroom and that Emma's distaste for her stepmother had grown so she didn't want to have to be that close to her stepmom so she and lizzie switched. At least thats what I understand it.

I can't see that Emma would have been THAT much further away from Abby just by switching rooms, as Abby's dressing room was right next to the smaller of the girl's bedrooms.

http://www.lizzieandrewborden.com/Crime ... Charts.htm





Tracy...

If we're back at Second Street, maybe Lizzie wanted to listen thru the connecting door- and maybe Emma was sick of that- what she'd been *hearing* for 18 years?

If Emma had such distaste for Abby, why didn't Emma get out more? Maybe she got out of the house a bit- but from what we know she didn't get out a lot and I don't think she joined anything which would give her reasons to be away from home to get away from Abby.

Kat @ Thu May 11, 2006 11:10 pm wrote:

Susan @ Thu May 11, 2006 4:00 am wrote:

Kat @ Wed May 10, 2006 9:59 pm wrote:Yes, Audrey is right. The second bedroom on the back was added in 1909. After Emma left. Also added in 1909 was the back porch under the new bedroom and the garage outside.
I also don't know the source for the story that Emma had the smallest bedroom. Could it have been "Gramma?"
Her grandmother worked there for a short time.

Wasn't it Mr. Dube's son that posted that information when he joined us here for a short while? Wish he would come back for awhile, so many questions about Maplecroft.

No, actually it was information passed on to me by the FRHS, a while ago.
I will scan and post it.
It's probably also in Rebello.

Kat, I found it! At least this was the first place I recall reading anything about Emmer's bedroom in Maplecroft. Heres the link to the page in the archives:

http://www.lizzieandrewborden.com/Archi ... FRTour.htm

And some of what DubiousMike posted about her bedroom:

"Emma's room was the only non servant bedroom wihtout a fireplace. "

"7. "Re: Tour"
Posted by Susan on Feb-26th-03 at 3:49 AM
In response to Message #6.
So, was Emma's room at Maplecroft as tiny and plain as her bedroom at Second Street? Have you ever found any Lizzie or Emma artifacts in Maplecroft at all?

8. "Re: Tour"
Posted by dubiousmike on Feb-26th-03 at 4:09 AM
In response to Message #7.
we found a commode. it was there from when Lizzie was there. it was not likely a servant's. after all, they can get their servant butt up and go to the bathroom, right?

The commode is white ceramic with designs (white on white). Original curtains in the dining room. Original wall paper in the dining room. Lots of other stuff, but I don't count stuff that is attached to the house in a perminant fashion, like sinks, stained glass windows. I suppose the wallpaper is attached, but it was the ONLY room with origianl wallpaper, so it meant something to us.

Emma's room is very small. The smallest non-servant bedroom.

When Lizzie passed, there was the rush for anything that was hers, much like with anyone who dies leaving things of value. Over the years, we were offered items that was Lizzie's for purchase, but often far more than what we fealt was a reasonable amount.

I'll ask my dad what else...

(Message last edited Feb-26th-03 4:13 AM.)

9. "Re: Tour"
Posted by Susan on Feb-26th-03 at 4:20 AM
In response to Message #8.
I was thinking of small things, like say, a hairpin that was maybe stuck between the floorboards. Those kinds of things that you always seem to find in the oddest places.

Sounds like our Emma had a thing for small rooms. I wonder how big her room was at the house she died in? Thanks so much for all your info, Mike!"

Thanks Susan!

My info on the Maplecroft additions, dates and cost came to me from the FRHS April 4, 2003 and I posted it but who knows where.

You're welcome, Kat, and by the way, thank you for posting your Maplecroft info. I read through the addition portion and couldn't quite tell what had been done? A 2 story addition and a 1 story addition? Would the 2 story be the back porch and Lizzie's summer bedroom (or was that the winter one?)? Then, what would the 1 story addition be, the re-do on the front porch?

My interpretation had been a second story bedroom in the back, 14x15, and a summer veranda (in the back) total cost $1000.
The other structure was the *carriage house* (or garage), single story, costing $1100.

In Rebello, the additions are listed thusly:

Page 287

"Note: Charles M. Allen sold the French Street property to Emma and Lizzie Borden for $11,000. It had been on the market for awhile.
Two additions were added: (1) August 15, 1909, a 14' x 15' two story addition, cost $1,000; and (2) September 18, 1909, a 14' x 213' one story wrap around porch. (see The National Register of Historic Places, A Tour Through
Maplecroft, Damelle Medeiros, August / 1992, on file at the Fall River Historical Society and Building Inspector Records, Permit # 363, Government Center, Fall River, Massachusetts) A 28' x 37' garage was constructed by James Allardice in 1911 for $3,000. (see Building Inspector Records, Permit # 117, Government Center, Fall River, Massachusetts) Maplecroft (306 French Street) was placed on the National Register of Historic Places on February 16, 1983."

Rebello has more information than my document. I noted earlier that the info was in Rebello, so here it is.
I'm glad you asked, because I was wrong about the garage.
It seems the garage was built in 1911.
I think my document is missing a page.

This is all so very interesting. I found Maplecroft for sale in Realtor.com for $729,900.00 today. It says it was built in 1893 but the building permits you have show otherwise. The listing makes no mention of it being on the Historical Register, I wonder why? Looks like it needs a paint job. With four or more fireplaces, I wonder why there was none in Emma's room? Back at 92nd Street, maybe Emma got tired of Lizzie going through her bedroom to get to her own and decided to switch for privacy reasons. As you get older you do change.

I suspect Lizzie liked having the privacy of a back of house bedroom in summer as the trees shield the back yard and noise from the street is less with the windows open. It is a comfortable room but not as large as the front of the house bedrrom over the entry and parlor. This front room looks very like an upstairs reception room as you go through a pair of French-type doors. There is a window seat under the triple window gable from which I understand Lizzie enjoyed watching the street below through lace curtains. The fireplace with its famous poem is on the front wall, central and I imagine the day bed or bed would have gone on the left side of the room.
Emma's room is smaller in comparison , but not nearly as small as the Second Street room. I imagine she enjoyed the hearth room and connecting bookstack room of the library across the hall too.

And yes, when Lizzie put her twin bed cattycorner up by the radiator in the house on Second St., it is very easy to hear every word through the keyhole into Andrew's room- you can even see through it! How convenient if you want to keep tabs on someone. I have always believed this switch was no accident and imagine she got some "notions" about decorating while on the grand tour with those velvet portieres over the bed and desk.

The lovely thing about Maplecroft is the woodwork and little touches like an etched B in the back porch glass and brass B in the entry door-although I think it was the DaSilvas who knocked out the middle bar in the B to make a D. The Terry family still has some of the lovely monogrammed silver and diningroom service items down in Kentucky.

Curiously Lizzie chose a firescreen for her summer bedroom which has a salamander on it. Knowing Greek mythology- this is the only creature which can go through fire unscathed! Was this a message for us?- or just popular taste! I suspect Maplecroft is full of little clues if we look hard enough- it was, after all, her House of Dreams.

Thank you, Shelley for the info on Second St. acoustics and the wonderful little salamander on the firescreen. She may well have chosen them with a message in mind. (She came through the fire, but the smoke still gave her trouble.)


Lyddie

Does anyone think that there had been a closet in Lizzies room at 92 2nd St. and also in the sitting room where the built in book cases now are? When I talked to Lee-ann, she seemed to suspect so, but was not sure. The bookcases looks like to be more modern fabrications. The diagram of the 2nd floor posted previously on this thread seems to show a door in Lizzie's room where the book case should be.

Yes, there was a closet in Lizzie's 1892 bedroom where the bookcase and built-in drawers now stand. She kept her chamber pot in it among some things- and there was a pale blue curtain drawn across it. A very detailed description of Lizzie's room was given by a lady reporter who mentions this closet.The sitting room also had the vestiges of a once-upon-a-time closet where now the shallow bookcase stands. This closet would have backed up upon the kitchen closet from which the famous dress emerged on Sunday!

Thanks for the info Shelly. I think Lee-ann said she might try and restore the closet in the sitting room if she had proof that one had been there. I don't know about Lizzie's room. It is a really nice book case! I wonder if the Mcginn's had made these modifications.

Not in Martha's time. I can't speak for Miss Josephine's though. Really, the existing closet in the sitting room on the south side is so deep, I wonder why they even needed a second closet in that room. The one that used to be on the fireplace wall may have been shallow for coats or something. The diningroom, front foyer at the foot of the stairs and Emma's room closets are super shallow. I cannot imagine what they could have gotten in them, especially since the girls had the dress closet off the front upstairs landing which is now a bathroom. I do love that the original lathing strips with the ghosts of hook holes are still visible on the third floor bedrooms and third floor landing area! I am picturing those famous seal skin sacques hanging there in their muslin bags waiting for Prussic acid!

When I was researching the modifications to the house for my Hatchet article, as companion piece to Mark Amarantes' wonderful photo spread of the tearing down of the Leary Press, Issue June/July 2005, pg. 36, I found that Mrs. McGinn Sr. (as I called her), John's mother, was given the second floor as her apartment. What was the latter day *Lizzie bedroom* became the senior Mrs. McGinns' dining room and it was probably at that time that the little closet was made into her buffet, with shelves and cupboards for china storage.
--Per phone interview with Bill Pavao, former curator of the Bed and Breakfast Museum.

When Lizzie and Emma purchased Maplecroft, I'm not sure that is what Lizzie wanted. They could have rushed into it. The property was much smaller than it is today. No garage, no back porch or bedroom.

Especially since she had to purchase another entire house, next door, to build the garage.

Lizzie made so many changes that Maplecroft became her own.

But, for not much more, she could have purchased a much larger property with land and privacy right in Fall River.

That's a good point. I hadn't thought of that.

Len showed us consecutively larger *Allen* houses that he built around Fall River and they all had the nooks and crannies and odd-shaped rooms. Maybe Lizzie was attracted to that?

Good points all. I thought maybe it was Maplecroft because the timing was right for the sale, it had a distinguished address, was really "high" up on the hill and was not too over the top size wise. To have bought a really enormous property might have seemed flaunting it. I wonder how much input Emma had in the purchase? Of course having Maplecroft engraved in the top step negated any impression of conservative good taste in house choice!

Many people who come into large amounts of money all at once go on shopping sprees. It must have been like Emma & Lizzie won the lottery! They had been repressed and living with Scrooge Andrew for so long, now they can indulge themselves. As for Maplecroft, I wonder how many homes were for sale at that time from which they could choose? How different their lives would have been if they had gone to Boston or New York City instead of staying in Fall River.

I suspect that it was a closet in Lizzie's room, but more of a cupboard type closet where hat boxes, gloves, fans, etc. might be stored as opposed to a closet to hang dresses. Note the width compared to the closet in Andrew and Abby's room.

Also, is that a typo on the National Register Form? It has E.L. and L.A. Borden listed next to Water Dept. for April 1, 1889.

In Rebello's book, Lizzie Borden Past & Present, he has info on the homes rumored to be bought by Emma and Lizzie, pgs. 281+:

In Search of a Home

"It is understood that about $15,000 was paid for the William H. Chace property on Rock St.
The Misses Borden are said to have offered that figure, but the purchaser had a previous option." Fall River Evening News, June 27, 1893: 8.

Note: Mr. William H. Chace, an agent for the Union Belt Co., resided at 99 Rock Street in Fall River. The family moved to 118 Rock Street in 1894.
_____

Have Not Purchased a House

"There was a rumor about today that Misses Emma and Lizzie Borden had purchased the house on Underwood Street formerly owned by Rev. Dr. Mix and now owned by Mrs. Peabody of Salem. [Massachusetts] This rumor has been denied on good authority. It was proposed by the Borden family before the tragedy to purchase a house in some other part of the city, probably on the Hill and the sisters may not give up the project, but they have not as yet purchased a house." Fall River Evening News, June 28, 1893: 8.

Note: Rev. Dr. Eldridge Mix was pastor of Central Congregational Church from 1882-1890. He resided at 12 Underwood Street in Fall River until he moved to Boston, Massachusetts, in 1891.

_____

Newspapers reported that Emma and Lizzie acquired the Alfred D. Butterworth's estate. Artists from several newspapers soon arrived to sketch the Bordens' new home. The real estate office reported that negotiations were incomplete as Emma and Lizzie were out of town.
. . . .

"The owners of the Butterworth estate do not care to sell to the Bordens at the price the latter offered, but negotiations are still in progress. Yesterday, the Misses Borden called on Mr. Prentiss' home on High Street and later inspected the Annette Borden house on Underwood Street, as well as the Butterworth house."


--That's quite a few houses. That's good info- have to thank Mr. Rebello for that.
That Mr. Butterworth committed suicide before his house went up for sale.

I used to babysit for a family of "Butterworth"'s in Boston.

Thanks Kat, that is great and interesting information. Seems Emma and Lizzie had number of options in Fall River. Seems funny they would haggle with the prices when they had so much money but then I guess they picked up a few things from Andrew! As for the Butterworths, I never liked their syrup! ha!

Thanks for the information, Kat. It would be so interesting to see, if the houses still exist, what they look like in comparison to Maplecroft. I have to wonder if with some of the homes that they made offers on if the refusal wasn't so much the amount they offered but having Lizzie's name in there?

Davo, I was thinking the same thing about the syrup!

I think during the girls' hunt for a house at some point they attracted a crowd and they ducked into the Bowen house?
Does anyone remember this story?

Davo @ Mon Jul 31, 2006 3:59 pm wrote:This is all so very interesting. I found Maplecroft for sale in Realtor.com for $729,900.00 today. It says it was built in 1893 but the building permits you have show otherwise. The listing makes no mention of it being on the Historical Register, I wonder why? Looks like it needs a paint job. With four or more fireplaces, I wonder why there was none in Emma's room? Back at 92nd Street, maybe Emma got tired of Lizzie going through her bedroom to get to her own and decided to switch for privacy reasons. As you get older you do change.

How does anyone know which room was Emma's? Does it have her name on the door? I wouldn't trust information from the Dube's because teh son said the home was bought by Andrew Borden, not true, and second apparently they are telling people the wrong construction date too......


StevenB

By process of elimination of rooms on the second floor, it is pretty easy to know which is Emma's-there are not very many. The placement of the room we have been told is Emma's also makes sense. LIzzie's library is a good -sized space, actually two rooms joined by a french door. The front bedroom-reception room is very large- going the full width of the house. Lizzie's back bedroom, which is something she added on, goes over the back porch. That leaves Emma's room on the left side of the hall (west side of the house) across from the library. It is not a huge room, but comfortable and bigger than Second St.

Shelley @ Fri Dec 01, 2006 7:43 am wrote:By process of elimination of rooms on the second floor, it is pretty easy to know which is Emma's-there are not very many. The placement of the room we have been told is Emma's also makes sense. LIzzie's library is a good -sized space, actually two rooms joined by a french door. The front bedroom-reception room is very large- going the full width of the house. Lizzie's back bedroom, which is something she added on, goes over the back porch. That leaves Emma's room on the left side of the hall (west side of the house) across from the library. It is not a huge room, but comfortable and bigger than Second St.

Cool! I was just wondering I know nothing about Maplecroft.

Thanks,

StevenB

Did "gramma" talk about this? Her grandmother worked there for a short time I believe.

Edit here: I see I'm being redundant. I already posted this on the first page from the spring. I guess I am asking someone to dig out the discussion and give a link if they can.