Lizzie Borden Society Forum

Kat and I have been trying to come up with a reason for Uncle John's year long visit in 1875.

We know that Andrew valued his opinion on land transactions. Checking the back of Rebello for Andrew's land transactions Kat found a large sale of land Andrew made to the City of Fall River in May 1874, valued then at $30,000. That's roughly $600,000 in todays money, a considerable sum.

Maybe Andrew was trying to raise money for some new investment and sought Morse's opinion. But a whole year? That's a long time for Morse to stay.

I think that $30,000 attracted Morse like honey attracts bears!
And Morse could live off Andrew for a year because Andrew was flush with cash! (I hadn't thought of whether Morse supported himself during that year...)

I've never been convinced that Morse didn't borrow money from Andrew now and then...

Wouldn't it stand to reason that he made himself comfortable with Borden hospitality? No food bills, no lodging to pay for....

I have often wondered if he got a percentage of a deal Andrew profited from and which he advised him on.

Well, the men were supposedly congenial, so that probably rules out any reniging Andrew might have wanted to try. Maybe Andrew never reniged on a deal?

I saw a bio on Ron Howard last night and in his first homemade directorial film debut as a teen he had hired his little brother Clint to be in it- and Clint and Ron agreed he would get 1/2 the prize money. The film won $100, taking second place., And then Opie- Ron- tried to renig on the deal!
And that's brothers!

Technically there was no formal relationship between Morse and Andrew. Sarah had passed away over 12 years before and Andrew had re-married. Would Abby resent Morse, he acting as a reminder of Andrew's previous wife?

As the world turns in the Borden household!

If Morse was congenial towards Abby it may have been a welcome change from the open hostility exhibited by the other two reminders of Andrew's previous wife.

I can't tell if Abby liked Morse around.
It was one of those unsubstantiated things from the Nellie McHenry letter that supposedly gave Bridget's insider tales of Abby and Abby's thoughts on Morse- which were that he should get married and get out of her life- so to speak.

And she did leave him alone pretty much with Andrew, while Andrew walked in and out of the sitting room Thursday morning and she was doing her dusting in front of him. And she did go to bed early Wednesday night leaving the menfolk up. Granted, she had been ill.
When he arrived on Wednesday Abby practically made him sit down to eat. It may have been her effort to show some hospitality- but the funny thing is, they had been ill from the food!

So, I'm not sure what Abby thought of Morse...

Abby may have felt less than hospitable toward John Morse. I have to wonder how manipulative she really was. Lizzie's almost pointed avoidance of him on this occasion seems remarkable. Perhaps the only family members who enjoyed his presence were Andrew and Emma.

Abby may have gone to fix him a plate to get out of the room. If she didn't enjoy spending time with him, or was bored by his and Andrew's conversations she may have been glad to have an exuse to go do something else.

I just had another thought...

Maybe Abby knew what the men were talking about and knew it might cause even more conflict in the house and wanted no part of it..... So she left the room and went to bed in the only form of protest she had.

She may have been nervous and still upset the following morning and maybe she did direct Bridget to wash the windows, not thinking of the heat, distracted with her own thoughts and worries.

Then or now, it would benefit a rich man like Andy Borden to have a trusted confidential agent to research various business opportunities. A 'straw man' to buy up properties w/o anyone being aware of the true owner. Nowadays they use a dummy corporation or other agent to do this.
The film "Chinatown' shows how this was being done, then.

John Morse acting as Andrew's agent to reinvest the $30,000 might well explain an extended stay. Is there a record of Andrew's real estate investments during that period?

Andrew's land transactions are in Rebello, pages 549 thru 555.

~~~~~

I was wondering if Andrew put his foot down to make Abby show hospitality to Morse, or whether she liked him of her own accord.
A lot of people liked him, but some people also thought he was a bit strange.
He would be someone who had a lot of stories to tell, as he'd been quite well-traveled. Before TV, interesting and colorful conversation rated pretty highly.

I have a Rebello question if you don't mind...

I could swear I read in a recent post (which I of course can't locate for the life of me!) someone mentioning to be sure to buy the Rebello bible, and that he might have a few copies left....

Did I imagine this?

My library network doesn't have it & a quick glance on amazon puts it at $150 - too rich for my blood.

Is there an opportunity to buy directly from the author? Or the marketplace here?

You didn't imagine it, galacticgirl. I got my copy from the FRHS for about $58 shipped as I recall, probably within the past year or a bit over that. Unfortunately it looks as tho they no longer carry that title in the shop; it's not listed on the site, anyway. There was tho such a "direct buy" posting I'm sure. (I'm having no luck at finding it presently, however.)

I mentioned it. Unfortunately, I do not have his address right here with me, but i can look it up when I get home. Kat could possibly help you with this faster than I. It is THE book to have for good reference to the facts. It's not a novel, but the best resource book to date.

There are also SEVERAL good resouces, provided by Stefani, for our use, FOR FREE, at the LAB website:
http://www.lizzieandrewborden.com/LizzieABorden.htm

Subscribing to The Hatchet is also a very good idea:
http://www.hatchetonline.com/HatchetOnline/index.htm


Tracy...

Yooper @ Mon May 15, 2006 4:36 pm wrote:John Morse acting as Andrew's agent to reinvest the $30,000 might well explain an extended stay. Is there a record of Andrew's real estate investments during that period?

I doubt if Andy would let anyone get their hands on his $30,000 in gold.
But it seems quite likely that his trusted brother-in-law would be used to scout out reasonable properties for sale. Down-dressing has it uses.
Remember, 1873-on was a depression time, and distressed properties offered a good bargain.
All of this talk ignores the economic realities of those time, which would play a big factor in life, just as today.

Yooper @ Mon May 15, 2006 4:36 pm wrote:John Morse acting as Andrew's agent to reinvest the $30,000 might well explain an extended stay. Is there a record of Andrew's real estate investments during that period?

As a bank director (?) Andy would like to do favors for his fellow directors. If he wasn't interested in some property, some one else might be.
You do know the reasons for not buying out of state or other distant properties?

Andrew would not have to give John $30,000 to arrange a purchase. Andrew may not have wanted others to know that he was interested in a piece of property to prevent any unwarranted "inflation". All John had to do was inspect the property and determine the sale price. Anyone could purchase the property in Andrew's name, Jennings for instance.

I just talked to him but for once I didn't ask him how many copies he has left. I know a member just bought one this past weekend. If Len has any left he will sign it for you.
Tracy brought up the fact that this is a good book to buy in that topic where you said your next read would be Spiering.
Ad designed by Stefani Koorey.
This was last year. There are not 200 copies left- at all!

For any serious Borden enthusiast or reseacher, NOT having a Rebello is like going to school without a pencil.

It is an absolute essential tool and well worth it's $50 price. It can actually save you time as much of the research has been done for you and from sources not available to most of us.

And the books actually appreciates in value. Buying one on Ebay is more expensive than having your very own, signed by the author copy which you buy directly from him.

When I received mine I harkened (did I use that word properly?) back to my younger school days when I received a new textbook in a subject I loved and it made that wonderful noise when you opened the cover for the first time and had that wonderful new book smell.....

My brother in law drew my name for our Christmas drawing one year and I was very specific in my hint dropping and he got the book for me.

I want a Rebello now!!


I was wondering if Morse's visit for the year had something to do with Lizzie? she would have been 14/15 going through puberty, maybe she was or had become a handful. I may be wrong, but I sorta got the impression that Morse and Lizzie were close at some point, maybe he could handle her better then anyone, sometimes an Uncle can do that esp if Lizzie didn't trust Abby and felt she couldn't trust her Dad, of course she had Emma too. PLUS If Andrew came into all the money don't you think Lizzie might be champing at the bit to move up to the Hill......... Even at 15, or especially at 15 she new what was considered right and wrong, and she may have had troubles at school with other girls from the Hill......... picking on her and about where she was living. Maybe not getting invitations to parties or what not. I can only imagine Lizzie at 15. with her father's personality, and peer presure, and everything else.

StevenB

What do you mean when you say "Plus if Andrew came into all the money?"- referring to that time period.

Kat @ Fri Dec 01, 2006 8:21 pm wrote:What do you mean when you say "Plus if Andrew came into all the money?"- referring to that time period.

Kat found a large sale of land Andrew made to the City of Fall River in May 1874, valued then at $30,000. That's roughly $600,000 in todays money, a considerable sum.

The $30,000.00 I meant if Lizzie knew he had just made that money.

Steven

Oh OK, thanks.
Where did you come across that information?

Harry @ Sat May 13, 2006 10:59 pm wrote:Kat and I have been trying to come up with a reason for Uncle John's year long visit in 1875.

We know that Andrew valued his opinion on land transactions. Checking the back of Rebello for Andrew's land transactions Kat found a large sale of land Andrew made to the City of Fall River in May 1874, valued then at $30,000. That's roughly $600,000 in todays money, a considerable sum.

Maybe Andrew was trying to raise money for some new investment and sought Morse's opinion. But a whole year? That's a long time for Morse to stay.

From here.

StevenB

I wish I'd have known you were using Harry quoting Rebello.
Thanks again.

Kat @ Fri Dec 01, 2006 9:18 pm wrote:I wish I'd have known you were using Harry quoting Rebello.
Thanks again.

Sorry I'l be clearer in the future. I just figure people are following the thread down from the start.


StevenB