Lizzie Borden Society Forum

From the book, "Did Lizzie Borden Axe for It",

"Lizzie said she was in the barn loft during the time when her father would have been murdered. But is this believable? The only witneses who claimed that the barn was "cool" were two teenage troublemakers who were arrrested for breaking into a store a few months after the Lizzie trial.

The creditability of these juvenile delinquent's testimony is questionable at best especially when compared to statements of law- enforcements officers like Philap Harrington, Marshal Hillard John Fleet and Patrick Doherty.

Even Lizzie herself said that in the loft it was "very hot..close". Yet we are expected to believe she spent twenty to thirty minutes in such excruciating discomfort by her own will? That's simply to much to believe.

On August 4, 1892, in Fall River, it was a warm, though not very hot, day outside (only 22 degress celsus), but there was high hulmdity without wind, and high up in the cramped quarters of the barn loft--with the door and windows shut and the bad air and with the sun shining down on the roof with nothing to prevent it's rays-- one can imagine that the loft was much like a styffy boiling sauna in which the oxygen is sucked away.

Lizzie could not khave spent anywhere near twenty minutes up there as she claimed.

If she went into the barn, and it seems that she did, as witnessed by Luinsky, it was likely only a momentary visit Officer Medley, who came onto the scene very early and was probably the first one up there, examined the loft and found not foot prints in the thick dust.

Another LIzzie lie.
But there's more. what is even more interesting is that Lizzie claimed she went there to make "sinkers" for a upcoming fishing excursion, and there was indeed a basket full lead in the barn but inexplicably she didn't make any "sinkers". If that was the reason for going to the barn, then why didn't return to the house with her "sinkers".

The obvious answer is that her "sinker" story was a lie, her weak alibi for her fathers murder.

In the same way, her nine o'clock "ironing story was an alibi for stepmother's murder. Her initial claim that she was looking her iron to fix a screen was also proven to be a lie when it was found that none of the screens in the house needed fixing.

But that's not all. Lizzie just continued to trip over her riduculously faulty alibi. She said she climbed bup the ladder into the loft with three pairs (how she managed this without pockets and without three hands we shall never know) and ate them; four pears in all, if you count the one she said she had in the kitchen. These were not the smaller green pairs but four big, brown pears.
That's quite an appetie,Lizzie.... and perhaps too much for us to swallow.

Next she claimed that while up there eating her pairs she was looking out the window for almost the whole time and saw no one go in or out of the house during that brief time and cruical span of time when a killer would have to exit the side screen door-- if he did exist -- because the celler door andfront dorrs were locked. Yet no intruder or escaping assasin was seen by her or anyone else at all on busy Second Street in front of the Borden house or Third street behind it."

How many alibis did lizzie need, and why didn't the prosicution zone it on this? I mean it's like come lizzie where were you when all this was going on? Seems she gave different stories as to where she was and what she was doing one that day.

I know if I was being accused of murder, I think I would make sure I had my alibi straight, and I think I would know where I was at. Seems Lizzie didn't know where she was at or what she was doing . Looks awfully suspicous to me.

David Kent's "40 Whacks" is the one best book on this case. He tells how he used a stop watch to track Lizzie's reported movements in the barn. It didn't add up.

I suggest that the first answer (in the back yard) was the true one, before the return of Uncle John and the concoction of an alibi. Lubinsky said he was a woman walking from the barn (also from the back yard).

In some works of fiction, the point is made that a plausible story that sounds reasonable is one made up. The remembered truth can sound strange. But not Lizzie's first answer (in the backyard, eating pears). I'm told that pears on the tree are not ripe, you have to wait until they ripen after plucked. A pear on the ground may by suitable for eating.
Those who have a pear tree (like the Borden's) in their back yard in Fall River can best anwer this question.

I agree that Lizzie's alibi of being in the barn loft is, at the very least, questionable, with it being hot and close and no footprints were found in the dust.

When I think back to when I was a teenager, I don't recall that a warm humid day felt hot and close to me like it did to my parents. Teenagers and children do not seem to feel the heat or cold as much as adults do. Not only was it a warm humid day, the women in 1892 wore full length dresses along with petticoats. The loft does not sound like a place I would spend twenty to thirty minutes in on a warm humid day, even if I wore a short sleeved blouse with shorts!

As for Lizzie climbing up the ladder into the loft with three pears, goes - my grandmother and mother use to pick up the hem of their skirts in one hand, as this would make a pocket in the skirt; they could then carry all kinds of "items" - this is how I envision Lizzie managing to climb up the ladder to the loft - not only that, wearing a full length skirt, she would have needed to pick up the hem of her skirt in order to climb the ladder or she would have been stepping on or tripping over it. I can also envision Lizzie putting the hem of her skirt between her teeth while she climbed up the ladder; this would allow her two free hands or she could have climbed up the ladder using only one hand - I have climbed up ladders many times, using only one hand.

I find it most interesting that Lizzie seemed to feel she needed an alibi(s) that took her OUT OF THE HOUSE during the time Andrew was murdered but not for the time when Abby was murdered.

I'm not sure the way into the loft was a "ladder" ladder- but more of a set of steep steps.
There's a photo of the demolition of the barn and I believe the steps are visible in that.

I think a comment by twinsrwe is thoughtful:

"I find it most interesting that Lizzie seemed to feel she needed an alibi(s) that took her OUT OF THE HOUSE during the time Andrew was murdered but not for the time when Abby was murdered."

How does Lizzie get away with not being guilty of Abby's murder?

Here it is.
Rebello, pg. 43.



Harry and I have permission from the author to post photos from his book giving credit as source.

That's what I am talking about, Kat. The alibi was weak to begin with and she kept changing it and she felt she needed an alibi for when Andrew was murdered but not Abby's.

I think she knew she did it and was trying to get away with it. She didn't like her stepmom and she was mad at her father because he was stingy and was helping Abbys' people more than he was helping her and Emma.

Thanks for the picture, Kat... I stand corrected. In order for Lizzie to have gone up into the loft, using these steps, she still would have needed to lift up her full length shirt.

Her alibi's just don't add up. It's just one time she is in the barn and at the same time she is in the kitchen, nothing makes sense.

Actually, Lizzie places herself outside for Andrew's murder but you guys are on the right track that she is not really giving an alibi for Abby's. (But she is not in the barn and in the kitchen at the same time).
So where did she say she was when Abby was killed?
Was she asked that?

BTW: That outfit Lizzie said she had on that day- the Bengaline Silk- did have a *smooch* above the pocket of the skirt. If she did at least wear the skirt of that outfit that day, Lizzie may have stuffed pears in there. Or the *smooch* could just be some old stain that hadn't been removed yet...

Lizzie didn't need an alibi for Abby's murder because "She had a note. Someone in town was sick."

All the mind changing Lizzie did in her testimony, at the inquest, was thrown out at the trial. So the jury couldn't hear any of it.

It seems to me, tho, that Knowlton told about it in his opening statement, thinking it was going to be used in the trial.

Did Alice Russell testify at the trial that Lizzie said she was in the barn to get some tin to fix a screen? Did any of the cops testify at the trial that she said she was looking for sinkers? Sporadic testimony like this might have slipped by the jurors. If Knowlton brought her conflicting stories up in his closing argument, it probably came off as pretty weak considering there turned out to be no direct evidence against Lizzie.

Thanks for the picture of the stairs in the bahn, Kat! Now I've got a visual on Lizzie and the loft.

How do we know Lizzie was eating big, brown pears? Did we ever find out what kind of pears the Bordens had? (Besides rotten ones Andrew threw 'under the barn'?)

This link might be helpful. It identifies eight different pear varieties by their hues. The three most common "American varieties" (that is to say, those which we in the US would most readily recognize) are pictured - the Anjou pear, the Bartlett pear, and the Bosc pear.
http://www.usapears.com/fileData/images ... snames.jpg

From the descriptions, the Bosc would seem the most likely candidate, it being large, and brownish in color.

Thanks for the link Doug-OH and yes we don't know what kind, shape or color those pears were.

The murder of Abby did happen, tho, note or no note, and Lizzie was in the house, tho apparently not Bridget- so Lizzie should have/would have been asked where she was.
I suppose since the exact time of death can never be determined, Lizzie floating about the house is useless info.
But as someone said here recently- that sound of Abby being killed was probably audible anywhere in the house.

I think the reason Abby's murder was not solved was because of the Male-Dominated society at the time that made the death of Andrew more important. Lizzie's arrest was for killing Andrew.
Also maybe they blew a prosecution of anyone for Abby's killing because Andrew was found first, and Abby became a sort of fringe death compared to his.
I think they had a better chance of convicting Lizzie if they had gone after her only for Abby's killing, to start.

Pearson's "The Trial Of Lizzie Borden" mentions Bartlett pears as being ripe and falling from the trees in Fall River. He doesn't specifically say the Borden trees though.

That's a good source Harry. He was actually there.

Ooops- I thought you said "Porter."
Did Porter say anyhing about the pears?

Kat @ Sun May 21, 2006 1:55 pm wrote:Thanks for the link Doug-OH and yes we don't know what kind, shape or color those pears were.

The murder of Abby did happen, tho, note or no note, and Lizzie was in the house, tho apparently not Bridget- so Lizzie should have/would have been asked where she was.
I suppose since the exact time of death can never be determined, Lizzie floating about the house is useless info.
But as someone said here recently- that sound of Abby being killed was probably audible anywhere in the house.

I think the reason Abby's murder was not solved was because of the Male-Dominated society at the time that made the death of Andrew more important. Lizzie's arrest was for killing Andrew.
Also maybe they blew a prosecution of anyone for Abby's killing because Andrew was found first, and Abby became a sort of fringe death compared to his.
I think they had a better chance of convicting Lizzie if they had gone after her only for Abby's killing, to start.

I agree with you, Kat... I, also, think Lizzie would have been convicted if she had been arrested for the murder of Abby instead of Andrew.

Not only did Lizzie feel she needed an alibi(s) that took her OUT OF THE HOUSE during the time Andrew was murdered. It also appears that she felt the need to create an alibi for the time of Abby's death... It was Lizzie, and Lizzie alone, that claimed a "note" was delivered to her stepmother, which took Abby OUT OF THE HOUSE. Funny how that "note" disappeared!

It is very sad that Abby's death was more or less put on the back burner while Andrew's death became the point of focus.

Yes, it is sad that Abby was the Rodney Dangerfield of old Fall River. She got no respect back then, and generally does not get any now.

Kat - a "fringe" death? It's true, tho.

Abby might not have fallen to the floor with a big thump. Maybe it was more of a crumple.

I don't know how loud Abby's voice was, but I imagine she yelled during her attack initially. Maybe not a blood curdling scream, but something probably came out of her mouth. I don't think anyone outdoors would have heard it. Second Street was busy - and noisy.

Maybe the B & B would know what kind of pears the Bordens had?

But the note was never found. So all we have to go on is what Lizzie said. That's the reason why I think she needed an alibi. Nothing was ever recovered.

It's weird. It's like Lizzie thought a note that would have taken Abby out of the house, meant Abby wasn't killed in the house while she was there. But Abby was killed in the house while Lizzie was there.
It's like she's thinking: "I'll close my eyes, and if I can't see you, you can't see me." That's a child's way of thinking.

I suppose, since there was so much early controversy as to Abby's time of death, that contributed to Andrew's death also being more important, because he was so freshly killed- they concentrated more on him.

Lizzie needed to prevent her father from looking for Abby. She also was physically blocking his ascending the stairs, if Bridget is to be believed.

That scenerio gives me the shivers. What if Lizzie was prepared to strike if Andrew came up the stairs? And then she would have had to chase Bridget down too. I think Bridget probably was one lucky girl to have disappeared when she did to go up to the third floor totally away from Lizzie just before Lizzie was going to go after her father. I think the whole thing was unbelievably lucky for Lizzie because everyone was neatly where they should be for a tidy little murder to have happened the way it did. Little blood, no witnesses, no noise, no crossing paths with someone else. Whew!

The reason for the note has always been clear, in my mind at least. I do think she used it as an excuse to keep Andrew and Bridget from looking for Abby. By saying Abby had gotten a note to go to a sick friend she is placing Abby out of the house, not herself. That's true. That's why I think it makes sense that it was used as an excuse. I can see her talking to Andrew and thinking "OH my GOD what if they go looking for Abby?" She would have to think up something on the fly. Maybe she didn't realize that Bridget would overhear her telling him that, or wasnt thinking that far ahead. She could've just paniced and blurted out something to keep them from looking for Abby. The it escalated from there.

If Lizzie held on to the hatchet after killing Abby, she probably didn't care if Bridget knew. She may have been prepared to kill Bridget, too. She had jumped in the deep water when she killed Abby and you can only drown once. She had no way of knowing with any certainty whether she would have the opportunity to kill Andrew in addition to Abby. That would have been taking quite a chance to retain the murder weapon if she cared about being caught. I wonder where she might have stashed it between killings, assuming there wasn't a second hatchet.

I was thinking today about what we might call *survivor syndrome.* That's where the lone survivor of a horrific event just goes nuts trying to ask "Why Not ME?" They wonder why they were not killed. They feel guilty to have survived. They are so wound up tight in that guilt that it can consume them. Just burn them out. We don't hear Lizzie screaming and crying and hanging onto Dr. Bowen's lapels or sobbing to Morse- "Why Not Me? Why was I spared?"

Bowen commented to Lizzie about how fortunate she was not to have been in the murderer's way. Someone, possibly Mrs. Churchill, testified that Morse's first instinct upon hearing of the murders was to look for Lizzie. Others were aware that Lizzie and Bridget were the only survivors. Lizzie seemed unaware of her good luck, at least no comment from her along those lines is recorded. Coupled with her lack of emotion in general, this probably seemed very suspicious to investigators. Her first consideration was to send for a doctor rather than go herself, he was right across the street! Her second consideration seems to have been her choice of undertakers, something most people would have to be reminded of by someone else under the circumstances. She really managed to distance herself from the proceedings, right from the start.

Yooper @ Tue May 23, 2006 8:16 pm wrote: Her first consideration was to send for a doctor rather than go herself, he was right across the street!

That's very true. Dr. Bowen was living just right across the street. Why did she feel the need to send Bridget after him instead of just running over there herself, unless she just wanted Bridget out of the house. I think this is the reason she sent Bridget instead.

I also think that Lizzie wanted Bridget out of the house for what ever reason. I also think that Lizzie was lazy... Why should she run for Dr. Bowen when she had a servant to do the running for her?

However, if I had found my father in the condition that Lizzie found Andrew, I would not have wasted time by calling a servant down from her room to run across the street for a Doctor. I would have been out of that house in a shot.

Lizzie didn't seem to be concerned that the murderer might still be lurking about somewhere in the house, either. Sooner or later, that thought would have occurred to most people. She didn't leave the house immediately after the murders. Common sense tells me she knew exactly where the murderer was.

I think the important point is that her actions speak louder than her words. What she DID, especially immediately after the murders, is more telling than what she SAID about the murders.

Why did it never cross her mind to send/look for Abby? She could have searched the house herself or called out for her if she thought Abby had returned.

Yooper @ Wed May 24, 2006 8:47 am wrote:Lizzie didn't seem to be concerned that the murderer might still be lurking about somewhere in the house, either. Sooner or later, that thought would have occurred to most people. She didn't leave the house immediately after the murders. Common sense tells me she knew exactly where the murderer was.

I totally agree! That is why I would have been out of that house in a flash.

Yooper @ Wed May 24, 2006 8:50 am wrote:I think the important point is that her actions speak louder than her words. What she DID, especially immediately after the murders, is more telling than what she SAID about the murders.

AMEN!

Bridget was washing the sitting room windows when Andrew returned. If Lizzie was in the kitchen when that happened, where was she when Bridget brought her cleaning items into the sitting room immediately before? The sitting room is the one room on the first floor with access to every other room except the rear hallway and sink room.

While it is possible that Abby might have left on an errand while Bridget was in the barn getting fresh water and Bridget could have missed seeing her, what are the odds of that occurring?

I don't understand why Lizzie would have bothered with 'the note' story in the first place. Libby was known to do the (daily) marketing and allegedly asked Lizzie what kind of meat she wanted for the noon meal - so why not just go with the easy story - one that wouldn't seem out of the ordinary or require hard proof?

Nuts! I also wanted to ask about FR police patrols...were there regular foot patrols on the streets of FR back then? The fact that this happened on 'clam-bake day' seems to be quite the coincidence as well. If I was innocent, my first impulse would be to get out of the house ASAP and contact the police - not a doctor. But if I knew there were none around.....

galactic girl

The note would have kept Andrew from being suspicious of an "unauthorized purchase" of food when there's
plenty of rapidly decomposing mutton available for dinner. It would have prevented his looking or calling out for Abby.

Oh yes, that yummy mutton broth...mmmm mmm good.

But still - with Morse in town, an extra mouth to feed - in case he would be returning for dinner (cough!). I think it would be easier to explain than a mysterious nameless sick friend (although men never do tend to ask follow-up questions that a woman would - so maybe Andy left it at that - if he really was told about a note)

I was quite surprised to read about bananas being on the menu - esp. with that pear tree/orchard out back. A tropical fruit seems like a wasteful expense - but maybe they were dirt cheap back then!

Did Fall River have a storm sewer system in 1892? Apparently there was a sanitary sewer system in place, along with a water distribution system. If I was Bridget and I was looking to dispose of a hatchet or hatchet head, a storm drain might be a good place. So would the back of a passing wagon.

The hatchet head with the handle stub, the one with the ashes found on it, looks like the handle was sawn off. It looks too "clean" to be a break. Has anyone examined the hatchet head to see if it is indeed broken rather than cut? If it is sawn off, it might be a "trial run" to see how long it takes or how difficult it is to dispose of a murder weapon. The ashes could be the result of hiding the hatchet head (chimney base) from other household members (Andrew) who might demand an explanation for a broken hatchet.

galacticgirl

I think the one thing guaranteed to wave a red flag at Andrew was the concept of "spend". Consider the autopsy findings concerning the state of digestive activity of Abby vs Andrew. I don't think he could bring himself to part with ANYTHING before it was absolutely necessary!

Sewers, privys, wells - I don't see how any of them could have been thoroughly & properly searched - no bilge/sump pumps, microscopic cameras, etc

Even in this day & age it is pretty easy to hide things from police searches (the Bernardo case here in Canada springs to mind - video tapes hidden in a ceiling lamp fixture).

You get to know your house & environs pretty well - I'm sure half of us here could find a hiding place for a hatchet and have it go undetected by police.

Yooper @ Wed May 24, 2006 1:47 pm wrote:Did Fall River have a storm sewer system in 1892? Apparently there was a sanitary sewer system in place, along with a water distribution system. If I was Bridget and I was looking to dispose of a hatchet or hatchet head, a storm drain might be a good place. So would the back of a passing wagon.

The hatchet head with the handle stub, the one with the ashes found on it, looks like the handle was sawn off. It looks too "clean" to be a break. Has anyone examined the hatchet head to see if it is indeed broken rather than cut? If it is sawn off, it might be a "trial run" to see how long it takes or how difficult it is to dispose of a murder weapon. The ashes could be the result of hiding the hatchet head (chimney base) from other household members (Andrew) who might demand an explanation for a broken hatchet.

Don't try this at home!!! In one detective novel from the 1940s, they explain its SOP to search all the sewer openings within a mile or so of a crime to search for a discarded weapon. And I'm sure this is true to life, like other features from Erle Stanley Gardner's works.

PS AFter consideration, I believe the sawed-off hatchet handle at FRHS was a recreation of the original, assuming the head is the original.
Where is its provenance?

galacticgirl @ Wed May 24, 2006 2:34 pm wrote:Sewers, privys, wells - I don't see how any of them could have been thoroughly & properly searched - no bilge/sump pumps, microscopic cameras, etc
...
You get to know your house & environs pretty well - I'm sure half of us here could find a hiding place for a hatchet and have it go undetected by police.

And I am just as sure that a vigorous search would find any thing that wasn't nailed down. Ever notice how freshly pounded nails can be distinguished from older nails?
Don't forget modern electronics, like those wands used at airports. These are available to County Detective, not necessarily the local uniforms.