Lizzie Borden Society Forum

It has been said that Lizzie may have been pretty nice to people of a lower class than herself. I am starting to wonder if that was really true or not. I am not saying she was mean to lower class people. She did leave some of her servants some money, but I am wondering if she was all that nice to the lower classes out on the street. I know some theories hinge on Lizzie having been involved with someone from the lower class and getting them to do the murder. Such as, Bridget, Hyman Lubinsky or a stranger. I can think of two incidents where Lizzie seems too much of a snob and too aware of her status to have stooped (in her mind) to being involved with someone she saw as lower than herself:


1. Calling Bridget by the name of Maggie when she knew it wasn't her name. I find the name thing to be rather condescending.

2. Going to Mr. Brow's drugstore and buying chloroform. He said that Lizzie, "asked for the stuff in rather a surly manner, and he answered her just as saucily." Rebello pg 81


So, was Andrew's daughter too spoiled and too much of a snob to stoop to being involved with someone from another class? Or would she hold her nose and use the person to help her with the murders then get rid of them later?

There is the story of a person waiting to see the tailor and hearing some big argument with pretty choice words from a lady towrds the shopkeeper, which impressed the onlooker. When the lady left, it turned out it was Lizzie Borden.
Can't recall the source. I bet someone here can.
That might be #3 in your list.
There's also the story of the bricklayer not doing a job to her satisfaction, and she railed at him as well. That might be #4.
I don't know if she just had a quick, explosive temper, or if she was at heart a snob.
It's an interesting question because I've always thought it's easy to seem nice to your servants who you are mistress over- and who live with you, and who are unmarried women.
It sounds like she didn't mind yelling at men.
(If these stories have the least basis in fact).

That is a good question! Working on the answer to that could really help us understand a big part of Lizzie's character.

Kat, I hadn't heard of the story of Lizzie in the tailor shop. That sounds good!
Does anybody have more details to that?

Yes, DWilly, she sure was good to her servants. And their children.

Animals, too. There's a story about her having her driver stop for an injured dog and she tried to help it.

A newspaper delivery boy in his later life said she was a good tipper.

There was a little girl who went to Maplecroft with one of her parents, who did a service for Lizzie (was it a milliner?), and Lizzie gave her chocolates or some really good muffins.

She hung up on reporters. I don't blame her.

I remember the clerk and the chloroform incident. I wonder if she knew the clerk was kind of cranky himself?

She refused to acknowledge Little Abby in the - was it in a cleaner's shop?. With the stuff Little Abby spread around about her, it's understandable.

She did a lot of church work before the murders - a whole lot. And she was a religious person. She cared that she had a Christian burial. I think she was benevolent toward others in a lower station than her. But that doesn't mean she couldn't have been a snob. Hmmm... Much to ponder.

Could it have been that she had a problem with low self esteem which manifested into a demeanor of superiority as a self defense...

That's possible. But in my opinion I don't think that was the case with Lizzie. I think she was much too assertive to have a problem with low self-esteem. Assertiveness helps one to overcome that, if they have that in a lot of cases.
Usually a person with low self-esteem will not be assertive. Not to say that her 'lowly' station in life that Andrew forced her into did not cause her embarrassment and longing to fit in with those above her in class, where she thought she should be. And she tried to fix that as best she could by joining in her church activities, where she was able to associate with a higher class of people.

But assertiveness and superiority are two different things. I don't think Lizzie felt 'superior' to people. I think she had lived commonly for so long (32 years) that relating to people of a lower station - such as her servants - came naturally to her.

I think she did want people to know that she was a lady of wealth. I think some that did not know her might have thought of her as a snob, but I don't think she was one underneath.

I think she got mad when she came across someone who had 'done her wrong'. And mad when she paid for a service and it was not up to snuff in her tastes. Superior, tho, I don't think so.

It's an interesting statement that Audrey made. Putting up a hard shell of superiority on the outside to protect the 'low self esteem' on the inside. I think that is a totally possible scenario. What's more, I know someone just like that. But my gut tells me this isn't the case with Lizzie either.


My take on Lizzie is that she wasn't exactly a snob, because as it has been stated, for the first 32 years of her life she had no reason to be a snob. She wasn't exactly living in a mansion on the hill. I rather think she could just be petty and self absorbed. She could be kind to her servants because they were no threat to her. She decided their fate to a certain extent by being the employer, not the other way around. They also did just as she asked them to, whenever she asked them to do it. This is what they were paid for. No friction there. Lizzie got what she wanted from them, no questions asked. I think this was a source of her 'affection' for them. The same goes for animals I think. They offered no threat to her, and couldn't exactly tell her what to do.

This is an interesting tidbit in the witness statements. To me it seems that the practice of ignoring someone was Emma and Lizzie's favorite weapon when they weren't happy with them. They did it to their parents by not taking meals and the like with them. The bold face was added by me.

The Witness Statements page 13-14 from the notes of Dougherty and Harrington:

We then went to Mrs. Geo. Whitehead, on Fourth street. She said " this property was owned in part by me and my mother. My mother wished to dispose of her interest. I could not purchase it, and did not want to sell; so in order that I might keep my place, Mrs. Borden, my step sister, bought the other interest. This the girls did not like; and they showed their feeling on the street by not recognizing me. Lizzie did not like Mrs. Borden."

They also did this to each other in their later years, after their split.

I do think Lizzie was proud of her fine name-- and probably had aspirations to be a snob....

I think she would have liked to be thought of as a fine lady from a fine family.

I have always though and probably always will think that Lizzie felt she lacked something. That she wasn't quite good enough to be what she wished she was. Maybe not low self esteem in it's general presentation-- But I think she felt inferior to the people who's opinions she valued.

Snob? Probably not. Haughty in her demeanor, More than likely.

People of good breeding and impeccable manners are not snobs. Whenever I think of a true snob I think of dreadfully prejudiced people with a sense of entitlement. They feel they are entitled to be treated better than others, they look down on people for a variety of reasons-- race, wealth, family name, etc.

Lizzie, for the most part was looked down upon by most people-- mainly because they perceived her as guilty of the crime. She was probably also a shoplifter and I suspect she was a 'coveter'.

Borden may have been a fine family name in Fall River-- But being Andrew Borden's daughter may have been more of a hindrance than a help. He wasn't the most popular of men.

Andrew Borden didn't give to Fall River. He took. He did nothing to set his family up as well respected members of Fall River society-- thus, Lizzie probably knew she didn't have a snobby leg to stand on.

This past week, Dr. Phil said something about drugs and people's development.

He said that once a person starts taking drugs or alcohol regularly, their mental development stops. Their character is no longer evolving- it becomes stuck at that age.
I don't know if once a person stops substance abuse, they can catch up to their real age. Probably not. It's like stopping any more evolution of the intellect, or IQ, or morals or ethics- all the things that form character.

Anyway, I'm not suggesting Lizzie took drugs at age 16, and that stopped her development- but I think something happened that stunted her around that age and she just never really grew up. So even the older Lizbeth with spectacles seems like a 16 year old in an older woman's body, to me.

(I wanted to throw that Dr. Phil thing in here somewhere...I thought it was interesting).

I think that is the thing we sense is missing in Lizbeth- that she didn't grow up.

Allen - That is so true. The 'girls' did dole out the silent treatment as punishment. I only thought of them doing that to Abby. But as you pointed out, it was a part of their makeup. Even to each other. I hadn't tied all that together before.

I have this friend (and, no, it's not me...) who quit smoking pot after many, many years. He actually went thru physical withdrawal. (I didn't know you could do that with pot.) Before he started smoking it heavily, he had an IQ of 166. It was like 2 when he was smoking. Now that he's quit, he's soooo smart again. I didn't know him before he started, and I don't know if he is smartER, just as smart, or less smart than he was. But what a difference in him! Really amazing. Whut wuz he thinkin'?

I think Lizzie was a condriction in terms. She might have been nice to servants and animals, but she might have been snotty to people she thought did her wrong. You know, tit for tat. People did kinda forget about her after the trial. They supported her during the trial then dumped her. She might have reacting to that, so she might have gotten a reputation as a snot.

I've read that Lizzie was treated pretty badly by her old friends after the trial. I agree, Snookums - she probably stuck her nose up in the air to those. People moved from their church pews when Lizzie went to her old church. People would cross the street if they saw her on their side of it in town. Kids would throw stuff at her door and yell stuff like "Witch!" (She called the police on them.)

Some friends did stick by her, tho. Mrs. Brigham did. The Holmes's did.

I was surprised to read that the ministers (Mr. Buck & Mr. Jubb) who so staunchly supported her during the trial dumped her afterwards. The Buck family remained close with Emma, tho.

Attorney Jennings even dumped her after the Tilden-Thurber incident, I believe. Someone recently posted about that on another thread.

Some of her neighbors liked her a lot. And she made what sounds like a lot of friends once she crawled out of 92 Second Street and started moving in the theatre and more cultured circles. Some of her friends were well-known in that era.

I have had the idea for some time that Lizzie was a spoiled brat who never outgrew it. Why should she?

Some parts of her life were diametrically opposed. She may have been willing to accept Abby as a substitute for her mother at an early age, but Emma likely pulled her the other way. Her father, whose hard-headed and miserly habits created the family fortune set one example, but Lizzie's friends gave her other ideas.

So many contradictions, so little time! Let's just grab the hatchet and end this tug-of-war!

i view lizzie's interest in theatre and theatre people as a sign of individualism on her part -- an indication of real interest in people who were "supposed" to be beneath her. realizing she was involved in conventional things too -- she just doesn't seem to draw class distinctions. and this is one thing in radin's book from his interviews that has always struck me -- something that seemed to be stated very deliberately -- that lizzie was NOT "prejudiced."

Haulover @ Mon May 22, 2006 9:23 pm wrote:i view lizzie's interest in theatre and theatre people as a sign of individualism on her part -- an indication of real interest in people who were "supposed" to be beneath her. realizing she was involved in conventional things too -- she just doesn't seem to draw class distinctions. and this is one thing in radin's book from his interviews that has always struck me -- something that seemed to be stated very deliberately -- that lizzie was NOT "prejudiced."

On the one hand I do somewhat agree with you that Lizzie was not "prejudiced." She did teach Sunday School to Chinese Children and she taught a Chinese man English at one point. However, that doesn't mean she hung out with the lower classes on a daily basis.

As for theater people, well, actually for the most part it was a couple of actresses she hung out with when she was older and perhaps lonely. Nance may have struck a cord with Lizzie in someway. I don't really know.

'Lady Bountiful' teaching Chinesed children can be ever so prejudiced.... It depends on her attitude towards her pupils.

Lizzie spent time with Alice Russel. Although Alice was a fine person-- and probably too good for Lizzie she wasn't a socialite or from a fine FR family.

my point about the theatre people is that they were considered low-class by the snobs, and yet lizzie entertained and took interest in them. where is real evidence of her snobbishness? she seems to have been moody and possibly had temperamental outbursts -- but is this snobbishness? i'm guilty of this, and i'm not a snob.

what is snobbery? a committed belief that there is a class beneath one's own station. she and emma called bridget maggie. i don't know what that means. bridget said she didn't mind it. it was never explained.

it's more apparent that lizzie was the recipient of snobbery in the post-murder world. when did lizzie have an opportunity for practicing snobbery?

we do know that she valued her privacy and we don't know who she was friendly with. let me put it this way -- if you are the scourge of the town, are you going to tend to be a "snob?" it would be kind of a joke for her to try to be a snob under those circumstances. we don't know her ourselves, but she was a human being. unless she was a monster.

Robinson said if the jury believed her to be the murderer, they must believe she is a fiend! Does she look it?