Lizzie Borden Society Forum

I have always dismissed the notion that Lizzie may have had a serious relationship with a man prior to the murders, usually deciding that no decent man worth having would abandon her in her hour(s) of need during the trial. I still tend to think this way about her life prior to the murders and her trial, but what about afterwards?

She wasn't hideous looking, and seemed to be kind to those who were kind to her.

I think she lavished a great deal of affection on her pets and on those who were decent to her-- in some cases her servants and in other cases people like Helen Leighton and others who staunchly maintained she was a kind, decent person.

Many take it to be fact that she was a lesbian due to nurses (and perhaps others) reporting she was more 'mannish' in her demeanor than feminine
and her friendship with (rumored to be lesbian, was it ever proven?) Nance O'Neil. Maybe she responded to Nance so kindly and generously as she was happy to have someone treat her decently and appear to wish to spend time with her. People who are unpopular and have few friends often do respond to positive attention in a manner such as this.

My point is... She might have been straight. Opinions aside-- it is certainly possible-- and in that era, she was more likely to marry if she had the chance to--straight or gay.

Many men do not really like to have a woman as a spouse/girl friend/etc who has more money than they do.... It can be a pride issue. I wonder if this was a factor in Lizzie's seemingly lonely love life? Or was she just so notorious no one really wanted her?

Although I doubt she was promiscuous, she did travel a great deal and could have met eligible men where she went-- or even taken lovers.

I also wonder a great deal as to what her day to day life was like.

The woman had to have had feelings and I would think she lived a personal hell in that big house of hers.

Lizzie had more friends than it's always said about her. She was so good to her staff, I would imagine that she had a fairly happy household.

She was nervous. That she writes herself in the note she wrote to her neighbor at Maplecroft about his bird she requests he keep quiet.

She loved to read out on the piazza in a steamer chair.

I don't think she was this lonely, sad old woman that most people surmise.

Personally, I think she was gay. I don't think it can be proven, unless we find some correspondence relating to the subject some day. It has been proven she has hung around with a lot of women friends, a lot of unmarried ones too, but it's never been said that she was on a date with a man. She went to the theatre at times with a married couple, but the man was not her date. That's just my personal opinion.

There was a lot of homosexuality in the Victorian era. Single women were sometimes encouraged to have female/female relationships to prepare them for marriage, but to keep it discreet.

It is strongly suspected that Nance O'Neil was bi-sexual. Even if she was, that doesn't prove her and Lizzie were lovers. It could have just been a strong friendship. I don't think we'll ever know. But every time Lizzie had a good friend, I don't think it meant they were a 'couple'.

I also wonder a great deal as to what her day to day life was like.
The woman had to have had feelings and I would think she lived a personal hell in that big house of hers.

--Audrey

I think she was rather sad- maybe depressed, when she was alone. She was eventually going thru menopause, probaby around age 42- say c. 1902+. I think since people did not live as long back then on average, menopause probably started earlier than now.
Even perimenopause can make her sad or anxious, including sleep disturbances, and that can be 10 years worth.

I think while she was still relatively young, she probably had a good time and that's when she made these new friends- Grace Howe, Helen Leighton, Nance O'Neil. Since Graces' husband consorted with the White House, an actress might not be hugely dazzling to Lizzie. I mean, Lizzie may have not been so overwhelmed by her celebrity, being infamous herself.

But, we have heard stories of Lizzie lounging on her piazza at Maplecroft behind her screening and overhearing what people said about her. It was also brought up that while in the Granite Street jail in that summer, she might have overheard out the windows. She might also have overheard Abby and Andrew discussing her thru her bedroom wall. (This is going backward in time, I notice).

I think overhearing what people said about her would be devastating. I could pcture her holding her head up as if she didn't hear or care- but she was one who wanted to speak to someone's face, and to overhear things must have been crushing. I don't think she showed it tho.

After a while, when one wears a public mask, it becomes hard not to become that mask.

For some reason I have always sensed that Lizzie was a sneaky child-- and maybe even a sneaky adult.

Audrey @ Sun May 21, 2006 4:29 pm wrote:For some reason I have always sensed that Lizzie was a sneaky child-- and maybe even a sneaky adult.

This is something I totally agree with.

Allen @ Sun May 21, 2006 4:32 pm wrote:

Audrey @ Sun May 21, 2006 4:29 pm wrote:For some reason I have always sensed that Lizzie was a sneaky child-- and maybe even a sneaky adult.

This is something I totally agree with.

I also see her as the type of child who pinched and pushed and liked to ruin the other kid's fun.....

Audrey, I agree about her probably being sneaky and pinching the other kids and all.

I wonder when her shoplifting started?

I'd think she was a bit spoiled by Emma, Abby and Andrew.

I tried to find that article where one of Lizzie's old teachers was interviewed on what she was like in school. She sounded quiet and lonely, like she was an outsider if I recall correctly what was written. Makes me wonder how much of that may have been Lizzie herself or was imposed on her; "We are Bordens, we don't associate with those who are beneath us."

Rebello, page 8 and 10. Some of it is Lizzie's old teacher and some is Mrs. Holmes and "unidentified friends:"

Says She is Innocent / A Former Teacher of Lizzie Borden Speaks About Her Case," Woonsocket Call, Woonsocket, RI.[ALSO:] See Kent, David, The Lizzie Borden Sourcebook, Boston: Branden Publishing Company, Inc., 1992, 271.

Mr. Horace Benson, who knew the Borden family and had Lizzie as a student said, " ... as a pupil she was an average scholar, neither being exceptionally smart nor noticeably dull. She was subject to varying moods, and was never fond of her stepmother. She had no hesitation in talking about her, and in many ways, showed her dislike of her father's second wife.

While living next door to the Bordens, he became acquainted with Abby Borden and "knew her as a kindly hearted, lovable woman, who tried, but ineffectually to win the love of the stepdaughters. Still, the household was far from being an unhappy one."

Note: Mr. Benson was first listed in the Fall River City Directories in 1874 as a principal of the Morgan Street Grammar School. He resided (boarded) at 84 Second Street, later renumbered to 194 Second Street from 1891 to 1903. He later moved from Second Street to 44 Morgan Street and resided there until 1909. Mr. Benson moved to Blackstone, Massachusetts.

"Lizzie Borden: Her School, and Later Life, Noble Woman Though Retiring," Boston Herald, August 7, 1892: 6.

Mrs. Charles J. Holmes and unidentified friends of Lizzie's were interviewed by the Boston Herald. A partial listing of comments are listed below.

"As a child, she was of a very sensitive nature, inclined to be non-communicative with new acquaintances and this characteristic has tenaciously clung to her all through life, and has been erroneously interpreted. ...At the usual age, she was sent to the Morgan Street School, embracing primary and grammar grades. ...As a scholar, she was not remarkable for brilliancy, but she was conscientious in her studies and with application, always held a good rank. ...She entered high school about 15 or 16 years old. It was then held in a wooden building on the corner of June and Locust Streets, which was removed when the present mammoth structure [Bradford Matthew Chaloner Durfee High School was dedicated on June 15, 1887] was presented to the city."

"Her life was uneventful during the few years following her leaving school. She abandoned her piano music lessons because, although making encouraging progress, she conceived the idea that she was not destined to become a good musician."

...
Pages 10 and 11:

"... We find her at the Morgan Grammar School when 14. Then she was a stout, blooming, strapping lass. Her great characteristic was keeping to herself. She had one and one only chum, a girl of about her own age, who is now married and lives in Rhode Island. Her exclusiveness was just because it was her nature. She had a sharp, sarcastic tongue, and was inclined to use it when not let alone.

At 16 she entered the high school, but got tired of going to school and quit during the course.

Page 11

While in high school, she was taking piano lessons. She remained at home and devoted herself to her music awhile after leaving school.

Her favorite historical character was Queen Elizabeth.

Her chief quality was her secretiveness. Such was Lizzie Borden the school girl. Lizzie Borden, the woman is just the same, her mental character unchanged except by one thing. The single influence that has changed Lizzie Borden is religion. How it has affected her only God and her pastor know."
.....
page 229

As a child, she was of a very sensitive nature, inclined to be non-communicative with new acquaintances, and this characteristic has tenaciously clung to her all through life, and has erroneously interpreted ... An unusual circumstance is that her practically having no choice of friends until she attained womanhood.

At the usual age, she was sent to the Morgan Street School, embracing primary and grammar grades. Her school days were perhaps unlike most girls in this lack of affiliation with fellow friends.

As a scholar, she was not remarkable for brilliancy, but she was conscientious in her studies and with application always held a good rank in her class. She was, however, a girl with anything but an enthusiastic idea of her own personal attainments. She thought people were not favorably disposed toward her and that she made a poor impression. This conduced to the acceptance of this very opinion among church people, and consequently the young woman was to some extent avoided by the young women of the church.

There was a remarkable change in her some five years ago and at the time she first began to fraternize with church people. Then, of course, when she was thoroughly understood, when the obnoxiously retiring manner was dissipated and the responsive nature of the girl came to view, she became at once popular and then came the acquisition of the friends who today sound her praises." Boston Herald, August 7, 1892: 6.

--This newspaper also described Lizzie as having "a wealth of black hair" and "dark, lustrous eyes."

Thanks for the wealth of info, Kat. Interesting that it was noted that she had only one girlfriend while in school. I keep thinking of that saying about not playing well with others.

Her favorite historical character was Queen "Lizzie". Big surprise!

As a child, she was of a very sensitive nature, inclined to be non-communicative with new acquaintances and this characteristic has tenaciously clung to her all through life, and has been erroneously interpreted. ...At the usual age, she was sent to the Morgan Street School, embracing primary and grammar grades. ...As a scholar, she was not remarkable for brilliancy, but she was conscientious in her studies and with application, always held a good rank. ...She entered high school about 15 or 16 years old. It was then held in a wooden building on the corner of June and Locust Streets, which was removed when the present mammoth structure [Bradford Matthew Chaloner Durfee High School was dedicated on June 15, 1887] was presented to the city."

Can some Fall Riverite tell me where the high school on June and Locust was in relationship to the Horton Homestead? Thanks.

As a child, she was of a very sensitive nature, inclined to be non-communicative with new acquaintances and this characteristic has tenaciously clung to her all through life, and has been erroneously interpreted. ...At the usual age, she was sent to the Morgan Street School, embracing primary and grammar grades. ...As a scholar, she was not remarkable for brilliancy, but she was conscientious in her studies and with application, always held a good rank. ...She entered high school about 15 or 16 years old. It was then held in a wooden building on the corner of June and Locust Streets, which was removed when the present mammoth structure [Bradford Matthew Chaloner Durfee High School was dedicated on June 15, 1887] was presented to the city."

Can some Fall Riverite tell me where the high school on June and Locust was in relationship to the Horton Homestead? Thanks.

I have heard of what was called in that time period
" A Boston Marriage " ( Quiet but accepted Gay women couples )
If I'm not mistaken, lesbianism was a Hush, but common thing among Victorian Women.
Wondering if Lizzie was Gay, could that be the reason Her sister Emma abrubtly left their new home, never to see Lizzie again. ( possibly catching her in the act with the Actress?? I cant remember her name??)
Could this also be a possible motive for the killings, ( the fear of being outed or disinherited by her father and Mrs Borden )

matt kevin jones @ Wed May 31, 2006 11:15 pm wrote:I have heard of what was called in that time period
" A Boston Marriage " ( Quiet but accepted Gay women couples )
If I'm not mistaken, lesbianism was a Hush, but common thing among Victorian Women.
Wondering if Lizzie was Gay, could that be the reason Her sister Emma abrubtly left their new home, never to see Lizzie again. ( possibly catching her in the act with the Actress?? I cant remember her name??)
Could this also be a possible motive for the killings, ( the fear of being outed or disinherited by her father and Mrs Borden )

In my opinion Lizzie was a lesbian. Although, she probably had never even heard of the word and she probably was confused by her feelings. Adding to her feelings that she was a bit "queer." Also, back in 1892, she did not have many role models and in all likelihood she did not even act on those feelings until after her parents were murdered. That said, I doubt it was the motive. I think money was.

[quote="matt kevin jones @ Wed May 31, 2006 11:15 pm"]
Wondering if Lizzie was Gay, could that be the reason Her sister Emma abrubtly left their new home, never to see Lizzie again. ( possibly catching her in the act with the Actress?? I cant remember her name??)
quote]

I can definitely see that happening. Emma may have been able to keep herself in denial all those years concerning Lizzie's idiosyncrasies or murderous tendencies because she never really saw anything. But if she actually caught Lizzie and Nance in the act, she would be unable to deny what she saw with her own eyes, and her senses may have been so shocked and offended and she had to get out of there.

***I also wonder a great deal as to what her day to day life was like.***

this above (from audrey) i think is one of the RIGHT questions to ask. meaning there are big clues there if you can find a realistic door into it.

I think Emma's leaving Maplecroft had to have been caused by a major breach of some sort. Emma seems to have been less outspoken and less likely to act on anything when compared to Lizzie. Except for the change of address, Emma's life seems to have gone on the same way after the murders as before them. She strikes me as extremely tolerant, almost to a fault. The big question is what would she not tolerate? Homosexuality or murder might cross her lines.

She had to distance herself from something at Maplecroft. She could have compelled the sale of Maplecroft if she wanted to, if Lizzie refused to buy her out. Apparently she didn't want to do that for some reason.

Leave it to Andrew's daughters to get it in writing before they split. Who would pay who how much, etc.
Makes one wonder if Andrew really died without a structured will. Obviously the girls listened to the lessons learned...

That might be one of the reasons why Emma left because of the sexual activities going on in the house. She didn't really approve of Lizzie's actor friends, and maybe Lizzie was gay or bi sexual. I personally think she was bi sexual, and I think she was comfortable with her sexuality. It was Emma that was having a fit over everything; and you have to keep in mind that back then, actors were consider no better than prostitutes.