Lizzie Borden Society Forum

Being A Newbie I've dug thru all the librarys in the area looking for different books reccomended by the Seasoned posters here on the Forum.
I've been very succesful in finding quite a few books.
The library is doing a state search for me for some of these books
( each library in the state can borrow books from the other )
I've been looking for a copy of the Knowlton Papers, But I'm having a little trouble.
Could someone refresh me with the exact title of the " Book"
Is it The Knowlton papers? or The commonwealth of mass vs lizzie Borden? is the Authors exact name Hosea Knowlton??
Can somebody let me know exactly the name and author?
The Librarian told me it would help with the EXACT information while doing her statewide search.
Sorry for being so GREEN on the subject.
any help would be appreciated.
Today I did manage to get Victoria lincolns Book & Arnold R. Browns
The Legend The Truth & the Final Chapter
Thanks
Have a good one
Matt

Matt, here is the information:

The Commonwealth of Massachusetts vs. Lizzie A. Borden;
The Knowlton Papers, 1892-1893.

Michael Martins and Dennis A. Binette, Editors.
Published by the Fall River Historical Society,
Fall River, MA, 1994.

"A collection of previously unpublished letters and documents from the files of prosecuting attorney Hosea Morrill Knowlton."

You can find an almost complete bibliography of all Borden books at our Lizzie Borden Virtual Museum and Library.

http://lizzieandrewborden.com/Resources ... m#booksnon

Harry
Thanks for the info
as you can tell I'm just starting to test the waters
Matt

Matt,

Use book search sites like bookfetch.com and some of the others. You can google up most of the book search sites I believe. Increase your chances and register with as many as you can. It's free. Plus, keep your eyes perma-peeled on eBay.


Tracy...

Personally I don't see any point in borrowing or reading The Knowlton Papers until the source documents have been read.
It's a bunch of letters from concerned citizens and cranks discussing their theories and speculations.
There are some interesting pieces between the prosecution characters, but anything there would be a bit benign and/or specialized.

The one best book on this case is still David Kent's "Forty Whacks". It will give you an overall picture. Then make a list of what is in your library system, and order by priority. In historical order is best.

Thanks Everybody
Yall still amaze me with your knowledge & Helpfulness.
Heres another stupid question I have for you.
Is there any difference in the following terms ?
Not Guilty & Being Acquitted ( Did I spell that right ?)
Is it the same thing? Does either one carry more stigma than the other. Is one a more negative term than the other, or are they the same, just two different words with the exact meaning? ( please dont laugh)
Some authors refer to Lizzie as being found Not Guilty, some refer to her as being Acquitted.
( You know all us Hillbillys up here in North Carolina need all the help we can get.)
Thanks Again
Matt

I attempted an answer to your question of not guilty/acquittal in your other thread on the subject, I hope it helps! It's one of those non-commutative relationships in mathematical terms, A*B does not equal B*A.

Some possibly interesting trivia concerning Hillbillies; the dictionary definition of Hillbilly referred to "people living in the Appalachian Mountains and parts of Northern Michigan" at one time. I haven't checked it lately, but that was the definition several years ago. That makes me a Hillbilly, too! In addition, my father's family is from Moore County, NC.

I meant no offense to the term Hillbilly
I am originally from Florida ( My family goes back many generations )
We are reffered to as Crackers down there.
After moving to North Carolina I have humored myself & others by calling myself a Hillbilly. Which in Florida the term Redneck carries almost the same meaning as Hillbilly ( minus the Hills of course )
Sorry dident mean to stray from the subject of Lizzie.

No offense taken Matt!! Most people don't realize the spatial reference to the term, it is usually assumed to be with reference to Appalachia. I was in charge of several survey crews a few years ago, some of them came from Kentucky, and they were the best workers of the whole group. Some of the people from Lower Michigan referred to them as "Hillbillies", which was certainly meant in a derogatory manner at the time. I showed the Michigan crews the dictionary definition, and the name calling mysteriously stopped!

matt kevin jones @ Thu Jun 08, 2006 11:28 pm wrote:Thanks Everybody
...( You know all us Hillbillys up here in North Carolina need all the help we can get.)
Thanks Again
Matt

I understand that the western part of No Carolina has the mountains, the east has the plains. W Va has the slogan "Mountaineers are always free".

That term seems to have been supplanted by "white trash", which only reflects bias on the speaker. I say "WT" only means a Caucasian who has been convicted, more than once. "Caucasian" mean a white person who has been arrested. It is NEVER used to refer to the rich!!

There are similar terms, I believe, for the rural poor in other states.
In the grate state of NJ they use "pineys" for people living in the rural pine tree barrens (sandy poor soil w/ dwarf trees). I have heard somebody use "muleys" for the poor in central New York state.

I think the opinion of a person who lives in a rural area, raising crops and hunting, can only add to this board.
Question: if you hunt and kill a deer, how long before the blood turns black and clotted? You understand the reference?

matt kevin jones @ Thu Jun 08, 2006 11:28 pm wrote:Thanks Everybody
...( You know all us Hillbillys up here in North Carolina need all the help we can get.)
Thanks Again
Matt

I understand that the western part of No Carolina has the mountains, the east has the plains. W Va has the slogan "Mountaineers are always free".

That term seems to have been supplanted by "white trash", which only reflects bias on the speaker. I say "WT" only means a Caucasian who has been convicted, more than once. "Caucasian" mean a white person who has been arrested. It is NEVER used to refer to the rich!!

There are similar terms, I believe, for the rural poor in other states.
In the grate state of NJ they use "pineys" for people living in the rural pine tree barrens (sandy poor soil w/ dwarf trees). I have heard somebody use "muleys" for the poor in central New York state.

I think the opinion of a person who lives in a rural area, raising crops and hunting, can only add to this board.
Question: if you hunt and kill a deer, how long before the blood turns black and clotted? You understand the reference?

As far as Killing Deer, We dident kill many. I was raised the the everglades region of Florida & Around the Miami / Miami Beach area. Most of anything we killed as I remember growing up were Alligators. ( and of course some fishing along the Beaches) But once or twice I have been on deer hunting trips with my father. if I can remember correctly, because it has been probably more than 25 years since, (I would stabbingly in the dark say)it was about 1 hour for some serious clotting and the blood starting to turn darkish/brown. as far as turning black it could be near 10 hours or more.( this is just a recalled guess) About the same for Alligator blood. But after a alligator was killed, it wasent very long, maybe within the hour, that it would be skinned and cut up and ready for cooking and the freezer. We or (I)
really dont recall paying that much attention to it.
( Mainly because in that day, Alligator hunting was still illegal and everyone was always in a hurry to get the Hell out of there, in the fear of being caught by the authorities) it was a kill/Cut/slice & dice/ get out of there sort of thing. But I would honestly say within the hour the blood would clot & seriously thicken and start to turn brownish, Keeping in mind the intense heat of a florida day/night, it could even take less than that
Matt

My relatives in agricultural or rural NY state would never admit to doing illegal. Even if it may have happened. Getting a deer is over 120 pounds of good meat. "Deerburgers" are made with cheap hamburger meat. Grind the deer meat and mix w/ hamburger for a better burger.

Before the 20th century there were no hunting seasons. Shooting a turkey would provide food for the family. Shooting foxes or weasels would preserve chickens and their eggs. Dogs would scare away racoons and other small vermin. No coyotes in those days; they hunt dogs!

My cousin said that it takes about 40 minutes for deer blood to turn dark and clotted. And this is winter hunting. CLotting = jelly-like or not liquid.

RayS @ Sat Jun 10, 2006 2:37 pm wrote:My relatives in agricultural or rural NY state would never admit to doing illegal. Even if it may have happened. Getting a deer is over 120 pounds of good meat. "Deerburgers" are made with cheap hamburger meat. Grind the deer meat and mix w/ hamburger for a better burger.

Before the 20th century there were no hunting seasons. Shooting a turkey would provide food for the family. Shooting foxes or weasels would preserve chickens and their eggs. Dogs would scare away racoons and other small vermin. No coyotes in those days; they hunt dogs!

My cousin said that it takes about 40 minutes for deer blood to turn dark and clotted. And this is winter hunting. CLotting = jelly-like or not liquid.

We live in WV and my husband is an avid hunter and fisherman. I've learned since being married to him that something is always in season, and he is always out there after it. I dispise deerburger. But I personally know people who love it. As well as deer sausage, and deerham. Which I also dispise. I do however like the tenderloins which deer season usually guarantees, at least for a time.

My husband said that deerblood clots within 20 minutes btw, and that it doesn't always turn black.

***Personally I don't see any point in borrowing or reading The Knowlton Papers until the source documents have been read. ***

_________________________


i could not agree more. the trial documents are essential in the first place. letters are letters. letters and notes on the defense side would be more telling -- but the court documents contain the actual evidence, in three parts. and the police records. without this info, you're lacking a compass.