Lizzie Borden Society Forum

I just finishe Victoria Lincolns Book last Night.
I was warned by some of the members here that it would confuse me
especially since I'm new in my research.
Boy was everyone right.
Although I did enjoy the book, I wasent real impressed.
I did not like the way she penned Abby, It seemed disrespectful to me, the way she almost name called her ( Fat, Waddley, eating her way thru life etc, etc)
And I just dident buy her theory on the epileptic episodes Lizzie had during Her ( Flea weeks).
Seems to me that if Lizzie suffered these episodes, especially when and IF She killed Abby, after the episode She would have no recollection of it.
Then she would have no reason to kill Andrew ( to cover up herself or whatever) because She would not remember Killing Abby. Unless She was still in Her episode during Andrews Murder.
If She came out of her episode after killing Abby, but before Andrew, and she had no memory of it, then she would think someone else killed Abby, and not herself??
Lincoln mentioned several times about others having these episodes, and they had no memory of them during it. Example: Like the young man who apparntely asked for a raise in his episode & got it, not remebering it later. Or She said like a person finding themself wandering on the other side of town eating a bag of doughnuts, and after they came out of it wondering where, and what they were doing.
If Lizzie did kill abby during these episodes, and cleaned herself up with the Birdseye napkins, and hid the hatchet in the slop pail ( as lincoln put it ) if she came out of the spell, clean and bloodless, maybe she would think that someone else had just killed Abby, if she had seen the Body before Andrews. But is she was out of the spell when she killed Andrew, and had no memory of Her killing Abby, How would she know where the hatchet ( Supposedly was hidden in the slop pail) was.
So Am I totally confused as everybody said I would Be ???
Help

Hi Matt,

We actually did a "review" of Lincoln's book sometime back. Here are those review threads. To lessen the confusion. read them in order. I hope it helps.

1. viewtopic.php?t=623&highlight=lincoln

2. viewtopic.php?t=644&highlight=lincoln

3. viewtopic.php?t=664&highlight=lincoln

4. viewtopic.php?t=684&highlight=lincoln

5. viewtopic.php?t=722&highlight=lincoln

6. viewtopic.php?t=805&highlight=lincoln


Tracy...

Tracy
once again thanks for the Tips
I read them and I also think That Lincoln has a hollier than thou attitude
I dident want to mention it at first because being a Newbie I dident want to put my foot in my mouth.
I certainly did not like her self proffesed, Codfish like uppidyness
I wonder what Lincolns body size was also ( She was probably actually self descibing her own looks) when she was bashing poor Abby.
I'm always for the underdog
I guess maybe some of my veiwpoints were not too many miles off base.
Thanks
Matt

it's an intriguing thing, well written in some ways. her memory of seeing the real lizzie is of some value. but when you get down to the details of the evidence, lincoln's primary theory about how she got away with it falls apart. she was writing before the trial records were so readily available, and prob. would not have expected the scrutiny we can give it now. she found a "hook" of sorts (a theory about the dress) and played it out, but evidence from witnesses don't support her. her whole theory hangs by the most delicate thread. this is one author i did take apart and concluded she had to be wrong.

to lincoln's credit, this was my introduction to the case -- and she is compelling at times unless you know better. it's one of those "classics" though that has to be read. i won't go into details here. i did it in an article--but what lincoln did was so confusing that it was difficult to clarify exactly what was wrong with her theory. i wish i had done a better job, but just take her book and delve into evidence and it's really something to see how she found something to grab hold of.

that's my view.

she was writing before the trial records were so readily available, and prob. would not have expected the scrutiny we can give it now.

--haulover

Didn't she claim to have read the trial?

Tracy has pictures of her and maybe she can describe Lincoln?

Being a novelist and having written a dozen or more books of fiction, I can only surmize that in writing " Private Disgrace" Victoria Lincoln could not help but embellish, and in doing so, successfully write a best seller for the masses. I dare say that with the countless theories on the case one was no more crediable than the next, thus, she pulled one out of her hat and being a fiction writer went to work embellishing. It's what fiction writers do best. Stretching the truth for a novelist is common place, especially when the truth is unknown.

Also, I believe the fact that she was from Fall River gives her little advantage over other scholars of the time who may have studied the case. True, she did come to Fall River to research the book and being born here may give the illusion that she knew more than the average
student on the case, but I don't know if that is necessarily true.

I believe late in her career that A Private Disgrace was an easy, fun project for her, and being from Fall River, how could she resist. It was one of the last books she wrote. If I'm not mistaken the last. She was working on a biography called "Teresa a woman" before she died in 1981 which was finished by her family and published in 1984.

That Lincoln was compelling is easily understood when you take her profession into account, that is, spinning a yarn. When I first read Radin I was convienced he was onto something. Even Brown got me to think.

This being said, I must read Lincoln's account once more since it's been
years since I last read it, before I can fully subscribe to the idea that Victoria herself did not have total belief in her own theory.

A terrific book, but ultimately untrustworthy. With a novelist's zeal she tries to wrap up everything in a neat package (this includes rolled-up blankets in closets, and chips of wood supposedly picked up by daughters on their way back from trips to the barn). With a writer's skill she plants ideas which later seem to be bourne out by testimony, and she throws out opinions which read like facts ("...even in the darkened room, the old calico showed up").

I adore this book, and will re-read it every few years until I die, but I'm not blind to the author's gambits any more.

I read A Private Disgrace before I became interested in the Borden murders. I thought it was a great read - still do.

I realize today that Victoria was guilty of blatant errors and downright untruths when she composed her novel.

This said, to make amends with the dear girtl, I would like to say as far as a fictional narrator of the case she was probably the best of the bunch.

Yes, I do have som photos of Ms. Lincoln. I wish I could post them, but I agreed not to do thatin order to get them. It is possible that sometime in the future I will be able to do what I need to do to legally share them on the forum. I would like to take some time to review over the pictures again so that I can present an accurate and appropriate description.


Tracy...

Maybe my description of Lincoln was a little nasty
All in all I really enjoyed the book.
She just came across to me as a know it all.
And we all know that only one person really knows it all ( Lizzie ).
I'm over it all now.
I'm halfway through The legend, the tuth & the final chapter. Its very interesting & informative.
I cant wait to finish so I can form my opinion.

Ms. Lincoln was an classically attractive woman. Her photo from later in life fondly reminded me of a portrait of my Grandmother. I think she really wanted to be connected to Lizzie more than she actually was.

We discussed once on this forum about how she didn't "technically" live "on the hill", but a block or so (?) below. It seems like she thought that was close enough to call it good.

From what I have learned about her so far, I believe she was a talented writer, however I think she wasn't as "high society" in Fall River as she wanted to be...and that maybe she felt even 'any' connection with Lizzie would give her the needed boost.

Maybe I would feel differently if I had had the chance to talk with her...or if I could learn more about her.


Tracy...

I believe her grandfather was Leotine Lincoln, who was a big deal. Her father was Jonathan T. Lincoln, also an author tho I heard he was an alchoholic.
Someone correct me if I'm wrong?

Leontine Lincoln's father was also named Johnathan Thayer Lincoln.
http://history.rays-place.com/bios/bris ... oln-jt.htm


Leontine Lincoln had a son he named after his father.
http://history.rays-place.com/bios/bris ... coln-l.htm

-----------------------------------------------------------------


Provenance



The papers of Victoria Lincoln were donated to The Johns Hopkins

University by her daughter, Mrs. Louise Lowe Kittredge, February

1991. The Accession Number is 90-91.29.



Biographical Note



Victoria Lincoln was an American writer of fiction and

journalistic articles. She was born in Fall River, Massachusetts

in 1904, the daughter of Jonathan Thayer Lincoln (1869-1942) and

Louise Sears Cobb Lincoln. She was the granddaughter of Leontine

Lincoln (1846-1923), a prominent manufacturer of cotton and silk

machinery. Miss Lincoln graduated from B.M.C. Durfee High School

(Class of 1922) in Fall River and received her B.A. from

Radcliffe College in 1926. She lived in Fall River until 1927,

and the influences of her native city found expression in some of

her writings.



Miss Lincoln was married briefly to Isaac Watkins. In 1934, she

married Victor Lowe, then a graduate student at Harvard. She was

the mother of three children, Penelope Watkins, Louise and Thomas

Lowe. The Lowes moved to Baltimore, Md. in 1947 when Victor was

appointed to a faculty position in the philosophy department, The

Johns Hopkins University. Miss Lincoln wrote from her home in

Baltimore and combined her writing career with the equally

demanding role of wife and mother. In an interview with

Collier's, Feb. 19, 1944, Miss Lincoln reflected that "[Anthony]

Trollope couldn't have known just how much doggedness is required

of a woman writer who is also a mother and housekeeper."


http://www.library.jhu.edu/collections/ ... ms313.html

There is more information about Victoria Lincoln at the link above than what is posted if anyone is interested in reading the complete biographical note.

Yes, middle-aged because someone in their 20s or 30s w/ children will not have a lot of spare time. Unless they can hire servants.
I doubt that anyone here is in their 20s or 30s and working in K-Mart or Walmart.

I am only half-way through the book (got side-tracked by that "Chloroform: The Quest for Oblivion" mentioned here - very interesting! So easy to kill with chloroform, not sure why anybody would bother with the bludgeoning bit - ). I am also finding the cruel remarks a bit rough going. But I digress....

I have a REALLY dumb question:

VL keeps mentioning Lizzie's changing/3 phase alibi - I don't really understand why this is so important - the move from the yard to the barn to the loft.

Also, not really specific to just her book....but it reminded me:
I don't understand the burying of the blood-stained clothes. This seems really odd to me - why wouldn't they have been burned or thrown away? This can't have been a common practice back then, can it?

galacticgirl wrote:I am only half-way through the book (got side-tracked by that "Chloroform: The Quest for Oblivion" mentioned here - very interesting! So easy to kill with chloroform, not sure why anybody would bother with the bludgeoning bit - ). I am also finding the cruel remarks a bit rough going. But I digress....

I have a REALLY dumb question:

VL keeps mentioning Lizzie's changing/3 phase alibi - I don't really understand why this is so important - the move from the yard to the barn to the loft.

Also, not really specific to just her book....but it reminded me:
I don't understand the burying of the blood-stained clothes. This seems really odd to me - why wouldn't they have been burned or thrown away? This can't have been a common practice back then, can it?

Hey Galaticgirl
I new here to, but I think the burying of the bloody clothes was a symbolic gesture. ( since the bodies were autopsied & parts removed, they were not buried right away) to give respect to the dead, they buried their clothes to pust something to rest, until the bodies could be completely buried.
Please dont quote me, because I'm certainly no expert & very new in my research.

Galacticgirl,

You may also want to check the following past discussions concerning Ms. Lincoln's book and some of our reviews of it.

theebmonique @ Sat Jun 10, 2006 6:03 pm wrote:Hi Matt,

We actually did a "review" of Lincoln's book sometime back. Here are those review threads. To lessen the confusion. read them in order. I hope it helps.

1. viewtopic.php?t=623&highlight=lincoln

2. viewtopic.php?t=644&highlight=lincoln

3. viewtopic.php?t=664&highlight=lincoln

4. viewtopic.php?t=684&highlight=lincoln

5. viewtopic.php?t=722&highlight=lincoln

6. viewtopic.php?t=805&highlight=lincoln


Tracy...

Tracy...

Actually, I think we've found that things were buried back then...probably buried or burned. We don't yet know what kind of formal trash disposal they had on Second Street in 1892- so when we ask why something wasn't *thrown away* we have to consider what throwing something away entailed.
It might have meant a trash pit in the yard, or a burning barrel. There might have been a *rag-man* who made the rounds periodically.

I think the bloody things were buried on the property to:
Keep an eye on them- so they could not be taken by the curious.
Because it was August and getting smelly.

Personally, I think I would have locked that stuff up in the barn, until finding out if any of it was needed.

I would suspect that the clothing and/or linens were buried primarily for two, perhaps three reasons:

1. As Kat has mentioned, discouraging souvenier seekers.

2. Not burying them would be much like issuing an open invitation to village rodentia and other assorted wildlife.

3. Left to the open air - as in the barn - those things would have likely (with time and Summer heat) kicked up such a stench as to make dear brother Billy's alleged odor smell like Chanelle Number 5 by comparison.

I have a dim recollection that several things were in fact buried in a sealed metal box of some sort - things that included clothing, linens, the guest room carpet, etc. I am perhaps wrong in that, but it seems to me that the stuff was in fact put in some sort of a sealed box, then buried either by or under the direction of John Morse.

I hadn't thought of critters!
Ok the barn is out. Good call.

The stuff that was buried, Witness Statements, pg. 42:

ALBERT E. CHASE

Fall River, Mass. August 5, 1892. The following articles and wearing apparel were this afternoon taken from a washtub in the cellar wash room of the Borden House by orders of the City Marshal and Medical Examiner, and were buried under my direction in the yard back of the barn.

1 sofa pillow and tidy, one large piece of Brussels carpet, one roll of cotton batting, one sheet and several pieces of cotton cloth, three towels, one napkin, one chemise, one dress, one pair drawers, one skirt, two aprons, one hair braid and several pieces of hair from Mrs. Borden's head from five to eight inches long, one neck tie, one truss, one piece of black silk braid or watch guard.

I also found mixed in with the hair of Mrs. Borden a piece of bone, which from it nature I took to be a piece of Mrs. Borden's skull, it was cut so smooth, that I thought it might be of use in determining what kind of instrument was used, as the bone and hair both had the appearance of being cut with a very sharp instrument; I gave this piece of bone to Dr. Dolan.

About the middle of the next week Dr. Dolan ordered all the articles dug up. After taking out pieces of clothing and of the carpet, they were ordered buried again. This time they were all put in a box.

--I think it was just a box. Not anything airtight or anything. There is another reference to this somewhere else- in testimony maybe? I recall Dolan saying this was not done under any direction he gave.

galacticgirl @ Thu Jun 15, 2006 1:36 pm wrote:...
I have a REALLY dumb question:

VL keeps mentioning Lizzie's changing/3 phase alibi - I don't really understand why this is so important - the move from the yard to the barn to the loft.
...

There are no dumb questions, just dumb answers.
But a wise man always has an idea about the answer before asking a question.
I think this provides a message that Lizzie will continue the cover-up by claiming to be where she wasn't (some would call that perjury). IMO
See David Kent's book for his timing of Lizzie's claims. He also points out that few had accurate wristwatches to keep track of their every minute.

I've made my own timeline- I prefer that to someone else's, although mine might have some input from a source like that.
Anyone can do it. It is very helpful in learning the case to do one.

You can find mine at the website:
http://www.lizzieandrewborden.com/Crime ... Lizzie.htm

Victoria Lincon's book is placed in the Biography section of my library. Good, that keeps it arouind longer than True Crime, some of which were discarded since last year.

VL's book is her memoirs of the case, refreshed by her research. You can look up "memoir" as opposed to a history from an outsider. It contains personal views, which may not agree with others. Politicians are famous for this. So maybe she did live further away. Ever visit a place you didn't see since you were a child? Notice how small everything looks now? (Like your old neighborhood.)

Just be aware that her diagnosis of "epilepsy" has no medical basis. It is merely an invention that tries to convict and acquitted defendant. The story of Fall River society shunning her after the shoplifting incident had another explaantion, IMO.

Every place I've lived that I re-visited since I was a child has been just as I remembered.
One in Sacramento was even bigger than I recalled.
Maybe that's an old wives tale.