Lizzie Borden Society Forum

Hi Everyone! I've just joined the society, although I spent a short time as a member a few years back. There was alot of information here at that time, but there's so much more now! And having access to primary sources is wonderful! Thank you to Stefani for making the inquest & trial transcripts available. Lizzie & the Borden murders have interested me for many many years & I've been recently re-reading some of the books, witness statements, Knowlton Papers, etc. As soon as I have a chance, I'll be back with a couple questions about this fascinating mystery! Meantime, just wanted to say hello & introduce myself.

Welcome Andrea
I'm sure you have a lot of catching up to do.
Just wanted to say Hi.

The REALLY BIG MYSTERY is who killed Kennedy and how did they get away with it. Now that is one mystery that will never be solved.

You do know that the first photograph shows Lee Harvey Oswald standing in the Book Depository doorway at the first shot?

Welcome Aboard, Andrea!


There is a lot here and the volume is growing. I've learned more than you can imagine in just the year I have been buzzing around the archives.

Dig in. Again, welcome aboard.

-1bigsteve (o:

The photo of Lee Harvey Oswald standing in the doorway of the Book Depository has been questioned as to whether it is a photo of Oswald's fellow Book Depository worker Bill Loveday who bore more than a passing resemblance to Oswald.

NOTE: This is not a disclaimer against a conspiracy. I'm only clarifying the debate about that one photograph.

Sorry Andrea, in all that, I forgot to say hello.

Hello and welcome to the club.

Welcome back to the zoo Andrea!

Hi Andrea!

Welcome to the Kennedy Assassination Forum!

Hello, Andrea, welcome to the circus!

Thanks for the welcomes & hellos - glad to meet all of you. I'm looking forward to getting the trial transcript into hard copy form (easier to curl up on the couch with). This will be my first foray into the actual trial transcript.... I'm so glad to finally have access to more than just Lizzie's inquest testimony, the witness statements (although I'm not sure the copy I bought awhile back is accurate), and the Knowlton papers. If only I had more time to spend on the Borden murders, let alone the Kennedy assassination I also find the Black Dahlia murder fascinating (but extraordinarily creepy & disturbing). Just out of curiosity, do any of you have interests in other true crimes/unsolved cases?

andrea @ Tue Jun 20, 2006 5:41 am wrote:Thanks for the welcomes & hellos - glad to meet all of you. I'm looking forward to getting the trial transcript into hard copy form (easier to curl up on the couch with). This will be my first foray into the actual trial transcript.... I'm so glad to finally have access to more than just Lizzie's inquest testimony, the witness statements (although I'm not sure the copy I bought awhile back is accurate), and the Knowlton papers. If only I had more time to spend on the Borden murders, let alone the Kennedy assassination I also find the Black Dahlia murder fascinating (but extraordinarily creepy & disturbing). Just out of curiosity, do any of you have interests in other true crimes/unsolved cases?

Hi, Andrea:

I just print the source documents from these archives and take them to bed with me.

I've been studying the Kennedy killing for well over 30 years (that man in the doorway was Billy Lovelady; Oswald was in the kitchen finishing his lunch and drinking a soda). I've never studied the Black Dahlia murder case myself but I just recently finished writing a poem about her called,"Black Dahlia (what were your dreams?)." I would like to post it soon on a seperate thread. I also finished a poem last night (finally) about the Borden killings called, "Lizzie, Lizzie."

One favorite murder case of mine is the murder of Christine Demeter. It has simular properties to the Borden killings. You can read about it in the book, "By Persons Unknown; The killing of Christine Demeter." She was a model who was killed by an unknown killer, hired by her husband, in her garage by blows to the head (hammer) late at night and no one heard a thing (her young daughter was in the living room watching TV). The killing took place on July 18, 1973.

The killing of Karen Silkwood I've studied as well.
Also the killing of William Desmond Taylor. The ensuing witch hunt destroyed the careers of Mary Miles Minter and Mabel Normand.
The Thelma Todd killing.
The Fatty Arbuckle case.
Right now I'm studying "The Death of Hitler" book. I don't see much mystery there. He just shot himself. No escapes on submarines and other wild such stuff.
Marilyn Monroe also.
Emelia Earhart too.
Abraham Lincoln.

There are probably others I've fogotten about. When I'm done reading the gore and details I read a kid's book to unwind my brain.

What other cases do you like, Andrea?

-1bigsteve (o:

1bigsteve,

Could your poem "Lizzie, Lizzie" be set to the tune of "Louie, Louie"?

"Every day, at ten, I slay her again",
"Hack that hag, all kinds of ways".

Sorry, I don't mean to poke fun at your effort, I just couldn't resist the impulse!!

Few people realize that the destruction of the airship Hindenburg is an unsolved mystery. I saw a documentary where scientists examined a rare piece of canvas covering from the airship and determined that it was highly flammable. So their conclusion is that a simple spark from the atmosphere could have ignited the ship. However, there are always rumors of Nazi spies, Allied sabateurs, intrigue, etc. It's a fascinating case.

One of my favorite cases has always been the Lindburgh Kidnapping which, as far as I'm concerned, is still unsolved. I live about 10 miles away from where the trial took place (Flemington, NJ) and every year they do a trial recreation with some very good local actors.

I always wondered how a Lizzie Borden trial recreation would go. It would have to include Lizzie's inquest testimony since no dramatic rendition would be complete with Lizzie on the stand!

>Could your poem "Lizzie, Lizzie" be set to the tune of "Louie, Louie"?

Or to the tune of Rebel, Rebel by David Bowie:

"Andrew Borden, your face is a mess!
"Lizzie, Lizzie, don't blood stain your dress!"

Hey Big Steve

I would love to read your poem, are you going to post it ?
On Stay to Tea ?
Please let us know.
Thanks
Matt

matt kevin jones @ Tue Jun 20, 2006 10:14 am wrote:Hey Big Steve

I would love to read your poem, are you going to post it ?
On Stay to Tea ?
Please let us know.
Thanks
Matt

Hi Matt:

I'm just cleaning up my terrible puctuation and checking my terrible spelling. Maybe I should have paid more attention to my third grade teacher and less to that cute little brunette. I thought I would post both and see what you people think of them. I should have them up soon.

I'm working on one about the Titanic right now. I can't decide whether to use "propellors" or "screws." Screws sound's like something you discover when you visit the IRS.

-1bigsteve (o:

Richard @ Tue Jun 20, 2006 8:08 am wrote:>Could your poem "Lizzie, Lizzie" be set to the tune of "Louie, Louie"?

Or to the tune of Rebel, Rebel by David Bowie:

"Andrew Borden, your face is a mess!
"Lizzie, Lizzie, don't blood stain your dress!"

Not quite, Richard, although I did see a documentry on the history of the song and the singers. I guess it stirred a stink at the time with everyone assuming it was "dirty." I love the song myself but never paid much attention to the lyrics.

"Lizzie, Lizzie" is my working title, I'm not sure if I will use it as the finished title yet. I got several ideas floating around in my head.

Your first line started out OK but you need to flesh it out a bit. Here, try something like this:

Andrew Borden, your face is a mess.
Abby, you look as peaceful as a dove.
Lizzie, Lizzie, you have blood upon your dress.
Tell us, Lizzie, have you forgotten the meaning of love?

That is the best I could come up with on short notice. Play around with it and let me know how it goes.

-1bigsteve (o:

Richard @ Tue Jun 20, 2006 8:05 am wrote:Few people realize that the destruction of the airship Hindenburg is an unsolved mystery. I saw a documentary where scientists examined a rare piece of canvas covering from the airship and determined that it was highly flammable. So their conclusion is that a simple spark from the atmosphere could have ignited the ship. However, there are always rumors of Nazi spies, Allied sabateurs, intrigue, etc. It's a fascinating case.

One of my favorite cases has always been the Lindburgh Kidnapping which, as far as I'm concerned, is still unsolved. I live about 10 miles away from where the trial took place (Flemington, NJ) and every year they do a trial recreation with some very good local actors.

I always wondered how a Lizzie Borden trial recreation would go. It would have to include Lizzie's inquest testimony since no dramatic rendition would be complete with Lizzie on the stand!

I forgot about the Hindenburg disaster. There was a good film made about it some 30 years ago that I liked. Personally I think the skin of the ship ignited from the electricity in the air and "poof!"

I tried getting into the Lindberg murder case but the book I had bored me to tears. I should get a more recent book and re-try.

-1bigsteve (o:

I read David Wrone's book "The Zapruder Film". He is a professor at a Wisconsin ? college who has taught this as a course for 25 years. He found a picture of the guy who was a look-alike, but this individual was wearing a shirt with large checks. Wrone says two other people were across the street photographing the parade. Their films show neither Oswald or anyone else at the 6th floor south=east window. I'm taking his word for this. While 3 empty shells were found thrown by this window, the actual rifle was by the south-west window, covered with brown wrapping paper, and placed inside a pile of book cartons. Figure it out?

I apologize for bringing in a topic that is truly more important in the scale of things. You are free to disagree, of course.

Any unsolved murder is important.
It's just that we are not a Kennedy Assassination Message Board.

BigSteve - looking forward to reading the poetry....

Thelma Todd is another of my interests.

I downloaded & printed Vol. 2 of the inquest testimony - just started reading it. At the end of John Morse's testimony, I wanted to say "wait, wait Mr. Knowlton...don't stop now, ask him more questions" - LOL. Will be interested to see if the others will produce the same feeling.

Kat, we could start discussing the Single Hatchet theory! One hatchet hit Abby and then hovered in the air for a few hours, travelled downstairs, and then hit Andrew! Case closed!

Sorry about the diversion.