Lizzie Borden Society Forum

I have heard here and there that the Bordens owned two farms. One is the one in Swansea that has the little white house on it. If there was a second one, where was it?

I hope someone responds because this has been an ongoing question in my mind! Anybody know?

This portion of a map is from an 1895 Bristol County atlas. It shows the location of the 2 Borden farms. Note the "est." after Andrew Borden's name which probably meant "estate". Map information then, like today, was current at the time the map was created and although the atlas is dated 1895, the map may be earlier.

Note also the proximity of the Almy farms under "Mrs. Geneva (sic) Almy", widow of Andrew's former partner. Per Rebello's book her name was "Genevra" and she died in 1903 at the age of 77.

Oh good! I'm glad you came through here, Harry!

I had remembered that map. It was used as an illustration for my article on Ruby Cameron in the Hatchet last year -- and I intended to refer Augusta to that issue so she could see it -- but as so often happens, once I'd clicked on to another thread, I totally forgot all about this one.

I always wondered what made it a farm? Was there farmland? Any casual reader of Lizzie-history would know that there was a routine supply of eggs from the farm. Does that mean that Andrew had chickens? Did they have any other animals? How much farmland was there? Is much of that farmland now part of the surrounding neighbors property?

Is it also true that Marshall Hilliard, on the afternoon of the murders, travelled out to the Swanswea farm because he thought one of the farmhands may have been responsible for the murders? If that's true, he must have been absent from 92 Second during the hours after the murders and must have missed a lot.

Thanks Har! I think the farm house we always go see is the one on the left. But wait- that can't be. Mr. Hudner, in the paper, said when he bought the farm he could wave to the guy at the RR station, and that is on the right... Hmmm...

It looks like the other Farm might be a matter for Investigation for the Researcher's next Trip to Fall River. It would be nice if the original Structures are still there.

A "farm" would be any place that raises crops or livestock for sale.
It would not be subsistence farming.

Yes Fargo:

The area of the second Borden farm is all residential with none of the buildings that were there from 100 years prior. Most were built after WWII. Streets crisscross the entire area with small homes of an acre parcels plus or minus. Without looking at plot plans from the time the Bordens had possesion of it, one would not find anything or would there be anything to see. Just like the land around the Borden Farm which encompassed 50 acres or so. Other than the house all that is left is street after street with house after house. Nothing to see, really.

One note on the word "FARM." In Lizzie's time if you did not live in the city you lived on a farm. All the small towns around Fall River, Westport, Swansea, Somerset, Tiverton, etc., if you purchased property there it was most likely farm land. Everytime someone purchased land they purchased "FARM" ----------that is the way it was thought of.

When someone purchased a house lot in, lets say Westport, my parents would say, "oh they purchased a FARM," or "they moved out to the/a FARM. That was the general discription given to land outside the city, even if it was just a small house lot.

Now, it is probably likely that the Borden's came across some cheap land, especially with all of Andrew's real estate and banking deals. So he probably purchased the second 'FARM" land for a song. Andrew being Andrew and taking into consideration his glutinous need for money, he probably worked the properties as such, for farming. And really, there was very little reason for anyone to purchase land back then unless they were going to farm it, otherwise it just made you land poor. Farms were a business and meant to be worked as such.

The point I am making here is, just because they call it a farm does not mean that when someone of great wealth purchases it that he will continue to work it as a farm, thought Borden probably did-----it may have just been land that sat there for future investment. But, back then unless you were going to farm it what was the use of having all that land, unless, "unless," you got it (stole it) for a song. In which case then, "Buddy, you have yourself a FARM.

Is it possible that the second "farm" was the estate that Andrew gave the interest of to Abbys sister and husband? Remember the girls were very made at Andrew for giving some of the inheirtance away to someone not related to them. Or was that another piece of property Andrew gave to them?
Got my facts wrong maybe?

Michael is right about the definition of a farm. I was just having this conversation this evening!
I was told the Bordens probably harvested some hay, and of course they had eggs which means chickens and maybe they had their own milk too, which means a cow or 2.
There was a structure or house of some kind on the other farm but is long gone.
I'm getting closer to finding out where it was. I've heard it said it was closer to Luther's 4 Corners- but that doesn't look like what is on this map.
We will check this out when we go.

snokkums @ Wed Jun 28, 2006 1:45 pm wrote:Is it possible that the second "farm" was the estate that Andrew gave the interest of to Abbys sister and husband? Remember the girls were very made at Andrew for giving some of the inheirtance away to someone not related to them. Or was that another piece of property Andrew gave to them?
Got my facts wrong maybe?

Morse said that Andrew said something about giving one of his farms as an old ladies home- or something like that. You're not too far off. The house on Fourth Street is the one where Abby's people lived and Andrew/Abby bought that 1/2 and put it in Abby's name.
After that he had to give Lizzie and Emma the Ferry Street house.

Thanks for the find, Harry! You so smart.

I am almost positive that Almy's wife was named "Geneva" but can check it. Still have not unpacked my stuff up here, and all my Lizzie books are still downstairs. That needs to change soon.

Thanks for thinking of me, Diana. You're sweet. Thanks, also, for mentioning the Ruby Cameron article. I never read it/them and really wanted to, so will find that issue today and enjoy!

Excellent post, mb. I thought that was the case, and your interesting post set things straight with the "farm" meaning.

Also, a "farm" can be vegetables growing and having no animals at all. My Merriam-Webster says: "A tract of land used for raising crops or livestock." But mb's explanation of the word is probably the closest to what it meant in Lizzie's time.

Richard - I am pretty sure you're right about Hilliard but can check it out easily. I know which book that's in, and I gotta start lugging some of them up anyway.

That would be great, Kat, if you guys looked more into that second farm while you're out there. I'm sure anything you found out about it would be new to us, at least me.

augusta @ Thu Jun 29, 2006 10:54 am wrote:I am almost positive that Almy's wife was named "Geneva" but can check it. Still have not unpacked my stuff up here, and all my Lizzie books are still downstairs. That needs to change soon.

Well, unless Rebello and the FRHS are wrong, it's "Genevra".

Like Kat, I had been told the 2nd Borden farm was in a different place (close to the R.R. notation for the railroad), but this atlas map makes more sense as to why they would refer to the upper and the lower farms.

Also, didn't Andrew donate some land for the purpose of build a railroad station in Swansea, with the stipulation that the land ownership would revert back to him if it ceased to be used for a railroad station?

At one time UMass had a substantial amount of documentation on the Borden Case online. The link no longer exists.

However, I printed much of this information out back in 2001, when I first got interested in Lizzie. It includes about 40 copies of transactions (both buying and selling) of land in Fall River and Swansea.

There are 6 pages just listing BORDEN FAMILY LAND PURCHASES with Grantor/Grantee info from 1844 to 1891. There are also book and pages for 4 additional transactions with no labeling which occurred after after Andrew's death. When I get some time, I'll try and retype this info for posting and see if I can match up which are the Swansea parcels and which are the Fall River. Some of you may find this info helpful.

nb - In Rebello, Appendix C, page 549, is a list of "Land Transactions of Andrew, Emma and Lizzie Borden". But not everyone has Rebello. And it would be interesting to see if there were any difference between that list and yours.

The U of MA site is gone??? Rats.

Harry, I stand corrected. Mrs. Almy was indeed "Genevra".

Bear in mind that a century ago people were not too finicky with names. My aunts were known by their anglicize names.

augusta--thanks for reminding me. I had forgotten Rebello had a list. I've been looking through it, and I think they are the same. The UMass site had the Vol. and Page numbers at the Taunton Registry if you wanted to look up the primary sources.

It also had copies of the handwritten transactions and then the same info typed out for easier reading. I copied some of them, but I don't think I did them all--there were too many.

Some of the property descriptions are vague. One example is the purchase by Andrew and William M. Almy from Albert Chaset et al on 5/31/1871 of property in Swansea for $4350.00

"Description of property: Land in Swansea' situated on "Gardners Neck" so called, containing 50 acres and buildings thereon. Situated north along Cole's River."

Another transaction by Andrew from Charles W. Gardner on 9/22/1871 for $2500.00

"Description of property: A certain lot of land situated in Swansea containing 18 acres more or less and bounded by land of A. J. Cook and William Pearse."

If you didn't already know where the property was, good luck in finding it from some of the descriptions.

At least, in the city, it might say Go northerly from the corner of A St. and B Street for 20 rods, etc. so you have a precise starting point.

I know I looked at one in Swansea that begam at the shoemaker's shop and proceeded to a wooden stake in the ground--must be great for surveyors today trying to determine property lines.

(Sigh!) Well, maybe Mr. Almy called her "Gen" when they were alone, but her name was 'Genevra'.

Yes, it was.

I heard the farm was once big- "shore to shore."

Wow - you are doing such great research, nb! Those page numbers and references back to the primary sources are invaluable.

Well, it looks like those are the two farms then. And what he paid for them.

Vedddy interrrrrresting ...

Kat--I think you are correct. There are more Swansea transactions. In 1873, Andrew is the one who sells property to E. M. Thurston on Harry's map.

There is also 450 acres Andrew bought on 3/8/1871 for $3000.00 from Wm. H. Pearse.

"Description of property: 450 acres located in Swansea. Beginning at the NE corner near the store of J. H. Luther, thence South 68 ? West 20 rods by the highway, thence South 1 1/2 ? West 9.4 rods, thence North 89 1/2 ? West 8 rods, then North 3 1/2 ? East 6.44 rods by land of J. E. Easterbrooks, thence South 69 1/2 ? West 9 rods by the highway to a high ledge, thence South 1 ? East 12.25 rods, thence South 11 1/2? West 2 rods, thence South 2? West 19 rods, thence South 32 1/2? West 17 rods, thence 14 ? West 9.24 rods, thence South 11 ? West 3.28 rods, thence South 17 1/2 ? West 764 rods, thence South 1 ? West 16 rods, thence South 81 ? West 8,72 rods by land of John Mason, thence South 1 1/2 ? rods West 40 rods by land of S. W. Hull, thence South 78 ? East 32 rods to the highway by land of grantor, thence northerly by said highway 27 1/2 rods, thence across the highway to a corner, thence East 33 rods by land of grantor, thence North 2 ? East 32 1/2 rods by land of grantor, thence South 77? West 3 rods by land of Chas. W. Gardner, then recrossing highway about 134 rods to the first named corner."

The question marks are in the typed transcript as probably difficult to cypher from the written document. It seems to be a very irregular shaped parcel, perhaps following the coastline? This probably needs a referral back to the original source. Its Vol. 312, Pg. 256 from Registry of Probate and Registry of Deeds for Bristol County in Taunton, Massachusetts.

I think this is the other farm.

There are also additional purchases and sales in Swansea. It would probably be easier if you could refer to the Town Assessors Plot and Lot map at the same time.

Kat @ Fri Jun 30, 2006 12:23 am wrote:I heard the farm was once big- "shore to shore."

Helen Pierce said that.

Thanks for all the info, Cynthia!

Note: Luther's Corner in Swansea is at Old Warren Road and Pearse Road.

Stefani and I were there last year. We were looking for Riverby and talked to the mailman outside Luther's 4 Corner Museum.

Yes nbcatlover: Luther's Corner is no where near the Gardner's Neck Road Borden Farm but indead a couple of miles away to the west/north west. Just before purchasing the house I live in I looked at a small farm house (with an apartment) on Luther's Corner, right across from the small museum. Nice area with a handful of historical homes.

We felt really drawn to that place for some reason. Stef and I had dropped Harry off at the Providence airport and had time until our flight. We met with Augusta/Sherry and her family at Roger's in Somerset for lunch and then Stef and I drove by the farm house and ended up looking for Riverby, as I stated. We stayed outside Luther's 4 Corner for quite a while, and it wasn't even open. It was a restful place.

Harry--I wonder if your 1895 atlas includes a map of this area that you could post. Some of the "old names" might still be on it.

I don't have the actual atlas itself just some pages that I captured from the sales on eBay. I think this page shows Luthers but I am not familiar with the area. It does have the intersection of Warren and Pearse roads. You may have to click on the map several times to enlarge it.

Note the Vinnicum Road way on top left and the residence of a G. W. Vinnicum. Morse said he visited William Vinnicum on Wednesday but I couldn't find a residence with that name.

Thanks, Harry. That's great! J. G. Luther's property is labeled at Luther's Corner, which is supposed to be the NE starting point. Pearse's property is labeled at the foot of Pearse Road, by the water. Maybe I can better figure out the property description with this. Thus far, I know a rod is 5 1/2 yards in length.

Thanks again!

P.S. You can find Vinnicum Road in the North End of Harry's map, where John Vinnicum Morse's uncle had property (exact location around road unknown), though a G. W. Vinnicum is noted on map. (Why do I think his uncle's name was Samuel?).

What a wonderful map, Huh Harry? If you look on the last map you supplied; to the center bottom it says S W A N S E A
C E N T E R. The second "S" in SwanSea is in the middle of the road, Pearce Road. Follow the road "Up" to the next intersection. That is the intersection of Maple Ave, Pearce Road and Old Warren Road. You are on Pearse Road till you get to the intersection. Drive right through the intersection and it turns into Maple Ave.

At that intersection, just to the right, is a little red or purple building. That is the Luther Museum.

Now if you continue through that intersection you are on Maple Ave. The next intersection you can see a church on the right. That church is still there. This today is at the corner of RT 6. If you take a left, as it shows on the map, this is the road to Providence, RT6. (It's a tall conservative church, Wood building, white, with a very tall spire.)

(If you have driven up RT6 you cannot miss the church. If you are driving on Rt 6 from Fall River it is right after the Swanse Mall on the right, right after you cross over interstate 195 )


OK, we leave the first intersection and continue up to/down Maple Ave. As per the Map once you continue up Maple Ave towards the next intersection, the one with the church, you cannot take a right. The road to the right (RT6) has not been constructed yet according to the map. But if you could take a right, a quarter of a mile down is the Swansea Mall. (just to the left) This is Rt6 which for about 3 miles or less will take you over the Brightman Street Bridge into Fall River.

NICE HARRY!

OMG does Harry know Rt. 6 !!!!!
I think it haunted his dreams for a week after his return home last year!

This is getting more strange!
We have Terence's collection here at my house. The pile is 3 feet high. I had some of his papers out tonight to look for an old LBQ in his stuff that I was missing. I put a small stack of papers aside with Ter's handwriting on it- because I wanted to look at it later- it looked like some genealogy.

Well, I just looked at the topmost page and on the side written vertically against the lines, is:
"Maple & Pearce
Old Warren & Schoolhouse."

do-do-do-do....do-do-do-do...

Just out of curiosity...does anyone know if the George Manchester on the map (property near Andrew's farms) has any connection to Bertha Manchester?

Kat @ Sat Jul 01, 2006 6:03 am wrote:This is getting more strange!
We have Terence's collection here at my house. The pile is 3 feet high. I had some of his papers out tonight to look for an old LBQ in his stuff that I was missing. I put a small stack of papers aside with Ter's handwriting on it- because I wanted to look at it later- it looked like some genealogy.

Well, I just looked at the topmost page and on the side written vertically against the lines, is:
"Maple & Pearce
Old Warren & Schoolhouse."

You need a filing cabinet with folders to arrange the items by date. Also another index to correlate subjects with date.
I'm not volunteering.

I think my system is going to be that I'm the only one who will know what's in his collection.

Aw, come on, Kat! Give us some teasers from Terence's collection. He did an awful lot of research. Look at Jordan Fiore's stuff, look at Ruby's missing boxes...if you don't share it, it just disappears into thin air!

I've posted a few things already.
I'm not going to not share- I'm just saying it's going to be too hard to catalogue it. Once I've gone over everything a few times I will really know what's in there.
I think I posted actually quite a few pages I scanned over in The Heritage Project.
No one seemed to notice...