Lizzie Borden Society Forum

I found this list of 14 reasons on the following website: http://www.law.umkc.edu/faculty/project ... dence.html

1. If not Lizzie, then who? Only Lizzie had a good opportunity to commit the murders. At the time of her mother's murder (around 9:30 A.M.), household guest John Morse was visiting relatives, sister Emma was out of town, Andrew Borden was running errands around town, and maid Bridget Sullivan was outside washing windows. Only Lizzie was known to be in the house at the time of Abby Borden's murder. To commit both murders (Andrew Borden was murdered around 11 A.M.), an outside intruder would have either have had to hide in the house for 90 minutes or departed and then returned without being seen.

2. It looks like an inside job. Police found no signs of forced entry into the Borden home (despite the fact that the Borden's habitually locked their doors) and nothing appeared to have been stolen. No stranger was seen entering or leaving the Borden house on the morning of the murders.

3. Although Lizzie claimed to have been downstairs at the very time her mother was violently murdered upstairs, she said she heard no alarming noises--this despite her mother having been struck multiple times with an axe and falling to the floor.

4. On August 3, the day before the murders, witnesses identified Lizzie Borden as having visited Smith's drug store in Fall River, where she attempted to purchase a poison, prussic acid. She explained that she needed the acid to clean a sealskin cape. The druggist refused to sell the prussic acid.

5. On the night before the murders, Lizzie visited a neighbor, Alice Russell, and told her that she feared that some unidentified enemy of her father's might soon try to kill him.

6. Lizzie told police that while she was alone in the house with her mother on the morning of the murder, a messenger came to the door with a note summoning her mother to visit a sick friend. Lizzie told people that she assumed her mother had left. Despite a thorough search of the Borden home, no such alleged note ever was found.

7. When Bridget Sullivan came back inside after having finished washing outside windows, around 10:30 A.M., she reported hearing a muffled laugh coming from upstairs. She assumed that it was Lizzie making the noise. (Lizzie, of course, denied being upstairs during this time period between her mother's murder and her father's murder.)

8. At the time of the murder of Andrew Borden, Lizzie claimed to have been in the loft of the backyard barn for 15 to 20 minutes looking for lead sinkers for a fishing excursion. Police found the loft so stiflingly hot that it was difficult to believe anyone would voluntarily remain in such a place for as much as 20 minutes. They also found no footprints in the loft that could substantiate Lizzie's story.

9. Lizzie had a strained relationship with her step-mother. They usually ate their meals separately. Some theorize that Lizzie resented the fact that her father transferred a Falls River property to Abby's sister, rather than to her. Police noted that during her interview, Lizzie insisted that Abby be described as her "step-mother," not her mother.

10. Although Lizzie appeared to have a somewhat better relationship with her distant and forbidding father, there were problems there as well. Lizzie was outraged, for example, when her father beheaded pigeons in the barn loft for which she had built a roost. (Her father thought the pigeons attracted neighborhood boys, who broke into the barn to hunt the pigeons.)

11. In the week before the murders, following an apparent family argument, Lizzie and her sister Emma left Fall River by coach for New Bedford. When Lizzie returned, she chose to stay in a rooming house for four days, rather than in her own room in the family residence.

12. In 1891, cash and jewelry were stolen from the master bedroom in the Borden home. It was an open secret that Lizzie was suspected as having been the thief. Lizzie also had been accused by several local merchants of shoplifting. (Yes, murder is far different that stealing--but it does suggest that Lizzie was hardly a model daughter.)

13. Immediately after the discovery of her parents' bodies, Lizzie sent various persons who came to help off on various errands. It seems strange that a woman would choose to remain alone in a house if she thought a murderer still might be nearabouts on the loose.

14. On August 7, three days after the murders, Alice Russell observed Lizzie burning a blue corduroy dress in a kitchen fire. When asked about it, Lizzie explained that she chose to destroy the dress because it was stained with old paint.

I guess that is the same site that Cynthia has been using lately for testimony of Alice.

It's a good test: count the errors and name them?

O.K. I will probably get an "F" on this, so go easy on Me Kat, remember I'm new, but here goes.

#3--It was a Hatchet, not an Ax
#4--Eli Bence identified Lizzie only by Voice recognition.
#5--Lizzie told Alice Russell, She thought something terrible would happen & She was afraid they would burn the House down around them, She never said "Kill"
#7--Bridget heard a muffled laugh from upstairs, as She was unlocking the Door for Mr Borden. ( assuming it was Lizzie )
#9--The property was deeded to Abby Borden, ( By Andrew ) not Abby's Sister
#12--Only Mrs Borden stuff was taken from Her dressing room I think, Gold watch Diamonds & streetcar tickets
#14--A cheap bedford Cotton cord, with a light blue background & dark small design ( Or somethinganother )

The site has both good and bad in it.

Personally, I like the fact that Uncle John's testimony is headed as "Robert V. Morse" in the Transcript Excerpts section. It keeps me thinking of the actor, Robert Morse, in "How to Succeed in Business without really Trying." I think someone's Freudian slip was showing.

Well, you are ever resourceful to have found a place where you can copy-paste testimony!

However, it does have me thinking that we may have to each identify the source of any testimony we post.

As for the *test*, anyone else wish to comment?
You have some time...

Ever notice the bibliography for that page section? 's well worth a peek.
http://www.law.umkc.edu/faculty/project ... iblio.html

11. In the week before the murders, following an apparent family argument, Lizzie and her sister Emma left Fall River by coach for New Bedford. When Lizzie returned, she chose to stay in a rooming house for four days, rather than in her own room in the family residence.

I have never heard this one before. Besides, there is testimony that Lizzie was at Alice Russell's the night before the murders, returning HOME around 9 p.m...not speaking to her father nor Uncle John who were in the sitting room.


Tracy...

Tracy,you know, I have heard that before but I don't know where it comes from.
I printed out the list and was just looking at it.

Matt did pretty well, and noticed at #9 something that passed me by. But I had read that before too- misnaming Abby's sister as benefitting from the house transfer rather than Abby. Good one!

It seems like you are getting them pretty much right until #12, Matt. I believe there was money stolen.

Other than that, at #12, it was not an "open secret" that Lizzie was suspected. In fact, neighbors, and Alice Russell, say they did not ever know about the theft.

#4: Lizzie supposedly said she wanted the prussic acid to put on the edge of a sealskin cape. Nothing about "cleaning."

#6: Lizzie did not claim that she knew a "messenger came to the door with a note."

#9: Lizzie did give permission to the questioner to call Abby her *mother* rather than what this list says which is the opposite.

#10: The pigeons were not "beheaded" but rather they were described by Lizzie as looking as if their heads had been twisted off.

Good thing I never once mentioned this list was accurate.

Because it isn't.

I thought it was interesting to see that someone had 14 reasons to blame Lizzie, when most of those reasons have at least one mistake in them.

Audrey @ Sun Jul 02, 2006 2:23 pm wrote:

Grow up, Vivienne Audree.

Elizabelle @ Sun Jul 02, 2006 4:01 pm wrote:

Audrey @ Sun Jul 02, 2006 2:23 pm wrote:

Grow up, Vivienne Audree.

?????

We have difficulties here deciding what the *rolling eyeballs* symbol means and that is why we are refraining from using it. Just a note of caution. Some think it means something else, and we get confusion out of its use. That's all there is to that.

It was an interesting list. It wasn't too bad.

theebmonique @ Sun Jul 02, 2006 12:52 am wrote:

11. In the week before the murders, following an apparent family argument, Lizzie and her sister Emma left Fall River by coach for New Bedford. When Lizzie returned, she chose to stay in a rooming house for four days, rather than in her own room in the family residence.

I have never heard this one before. Besides, there is testimony that Lizzie was at Alice Russell's the night before the murders, returning HOME around 9 p.m...not speaking to her father nor Uncle John who were in the sitting room.
Tracy...

I read that Lizzie and Emma both went away to Fairhaven. Uncle John came by, and Lizzie then went back to Fall River. Collusion?

Regarding

Quote:
11. In the week before the murders, following an apparent family argument, Lizzie and her sister Emma left Fall River by coach for New Bedford. When Lizzie returned, she chose to stay in a rooming house for four days, rather than in her own room in the family residence.

I believe Lizzie went to Marion when Emma was going to stay in Fairhaven (I don't remember this part clearly). On her return Lizzie stayed overnight in New Bedford at the Pool family's house on Madison Street. Mrs. Pool was the widow who owned the house. Her daughter Carrie and another relative were listed as boarders, and they probably did pay to help keep from losing the house. Carrie developed a form of consumption/TB (listed as phthisis on her death certificate and Lizzie went with Mrs. Pool and Carrie to visit Augusta (Pool) Tripp in Westport. The stay in "the boarding house" could have a hidden meaning or it could simply be an act of charity in assisting a very sick woman to complete a trip to her sister's house.

Carrie had been listed in New Bedford directories as a clerk at E. Anthony & Sons (publishers of the Evening Standard and distant cousins of the infamous David). She died several months later, and her mother moved to Westport. Mrs. Pool made a witness statement and, I believe, Augusta Tripp made a statement at the inquest.

theebmonique @ Sat Jul 01, 2006 10:52 pm wrote:

11. In the week before the murders, following an apparent family argument, Lizzie and her sister Emma left Fall River by coach for New Bedford. When Lizzie returned, she chose to stay in a rooming house for four days, rather than in her own room in the family residence.

I have never heard this one before. Besides, there is testimony that Lizzie was at Alice Russell's the night before the murders, returning HOME around 9 p.m...not speaking to her father nor Uncle John who were in the sitting room.


Tracy...

I should have been more clear as to what I hadn't heard before. It's the part about Lizzie staying in a rooming house for four days upon her return from New Bedford. THAT's what I hadn't heard before.



Tracy...

Yeah, that's when the rumor was that Lizzie had had her abortion in New Bedford....

There had been stories in the local papers (I have one in the Evening Standard being dated 7/21/1892) about a Fall River doctor, Ezekial H. Noble, who was being charged with criminal abortion regarding the death of Ella E. Hill. I believe this story fueled many of the stories about Lizzie and an unwanted birth. It was said that Lizzie came to New Bedford because she could no longer get one from Dr. Noble in Fall River.

Lizzie was in New Bedford on 7/25 and visited Mrs. Tripp on 7/26. I guess the dates were close enough to the Dr. Noble story to make people believe a rumor about Lizzie. I know of no actual proof of Lizzie's need but the abortion in New Bedford was the first story I heard about Lizzie when I was growing up, long before I even had read anything about the case. It seems to have made a deep impression on many people of the time. (And of course, plays into the McHenry/Trickey scandal.)

Maybe that's why Gramma used to caution us about the Trickey/McHenry story. She kept saying there might be more to the story- or at least *between the lines.* She probably had heard the rumors you refer to. I had never heard this before you brought it up.

Tracy, I think an author claims Lizzie stayed at a boarding house after returning to Fall River- correct? I mean that was what the writer meant- upon her return?

Posted: Tue Jul 04, 2006 2:25 am Post subject:

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Maybe that's why Gramma used to caution us about the Trickey/McHenry story. She kept saying there might be more to the story- or at least *between the lines.* She probably had heard the rumors you refer to. I had never heard this before you brought it up.

Tracy, I think an author claims Lizzie stayed at a boarding house after returning to Fall River- correct? I mean that was what the writer meant- upon her return?

That is what I am talking about...the idea of Lizzie staying in a boarding house for four days after she returned to Fall River from New Bedford. Is there any testimony to back this up ? I don't remember any, but that certainly does not mean it's not there. It seems like something that would have come up...that somebody would have mentioned it ?


Tracy...

Kat @ Tue Jul 04, 2006 4:25 am wrote:Maybe that's why Gramma used to caution us about the Trickey/McHenry story. She kept saying there might be more to the story- or at least *between the lines.* She probably had heard the rumors you refer to. I had never heard this before you brought it up.

Tracy, I think an author claims Lizzie stayed at a boarding house after returning to Fall River- correct? I mean that was what the writer meant- upon her return?

A few years back I got my MA in history. Now, that doesn't make me an expert on Lizzie Borden, because I am not. I am still learning about this case I do however, know that if I walked into any History department and said that I was going to use Ruby Cameron, "Gramma" and the Trickey/McHenry as a source for a book/article I would be laughed out of the department. They're way too unreliable. That's why I can't understand why some people keep going back to them as a source. Would you really be willing to attempt to have an article published with them as your source?


Anyway, here's a few questions I have:

1. Did the Trickey/McHenry article ever state that Lizzie had an abortion? Or is that idea something new?

2. Did Ruby Cameron ever say Lizzie had an abortion?

3. Could you, please, post any articles written in 1892, or 1893, that states or implies that Lizzie had an abortion.

4. Who was the father? What is your proof? Who are you quoting that says that person was the father?

5. Who supposedly performed the abortion? Again, what is your proof?


6. Where and when did these rumors first appear? Can you, please, cite your sources?

7. I too recall reading that Lizzie stayed at a boarding house. However, I don't recall any story about an abortion being the reason. As a matter of fact the impression I got was that Lizzie was simply angry with her parents. Where are you getting the abortion from?

8. If you do have a source that claims Lizzie had an abortion then what it that's source connection to Lizzie? How would they know?

I seem to recall Gramma speculating that Lizzie had an abortion on or about the day of the murders.....

IMHO Lizzie Borden could not have had hidden the fairly heavy bleeding which would have resulted from such a procedure from the jail matrons-- and it would have gotten out.

Unless it is in legal testimony-- there are simply no sources to cite for anything other than the not guilty verdict that information leads us to.

Exactly......We know what happened with the Trickey-McHenry deal...and I understand that Gramma has some strong heart-felt/familial connection with Ruby's story, but what about the legal and most reliable proof...testimony ?


Tracy...

theebmonique @ Tue Jul 04, 2006 1:12 pm wrote:Exactly......We know what happened with the Trickey-McHenry deal...and I understand that Gramma has some string heart-felt/familial connection with Roby's story, but what about the legal and most reliable proof...testimony ?


Tracy...

From what I understand the so called witnesses that Trickey/McHenry alleged were going to testify never did. As a matter of fact as far as I know none of them were even found to be real people. To top it off Alice Russell, who did testify under oath, contradicts the Trickey/McHenry time line. The whole abortion thing stems from people with over active imaginations reading "between the lines" and coming up with a story they like. Of course many of them will fall back on that famous line...."Well, it could have happened"

This story, believe it or not, is not something everyone subscribes to. It is pretty much a local phenomenon. It is interesting in that area natives had even heard this story and recount it. That's all. I don't wish to interrogate any local who takes the time to recount what they had heard back in the days they were growing up- and we can all decide for ourselves, I believe, as to what weight we may give it.
It shouldn't be automatically discounted, and it shouldn't automatically be believed- but we all know how this works by now, right?
Also, if a community, or part of a community thought something like this happened, an abortion, then that colors the perception of the community, and gives more background on the *history* part.

Kat @ Tue Jul 04, 2006 6:17 pm wrote:This story, believe it or not, is not something everyone subscribes to. It is pretty much a local phenomenon. It is interesting in that area natives had even heard this story and recount it. That's all. I don't wish to interrogate any local who takes the time to recount what they had heard back in the days they were growing up- and we can all decide for ourselves, I believe, as to what weight we may give it.
It shouldn't be automatically discounted, and it shouldn't automatically be believed- but we all know how this works by now, right?
Also, if a community, or part of a community thought something like this happened, an abortion, then that colors the perception of the community, and gives more background on the *history* part.

This is too vague for me. Which natives? Can you name names?Did they know Lizzie or is this more in line with Victoria Lincoln type stories? She claimed she "knew" things too. There are a lot of Lizzie legend stories out there. Many not even true. When I start to see actual evidence and not merely vague talk and local gossip that springs mainly from people who didn't even know Lizzie and weren't even around at the time of her trial then I'll start to consider the story. Right now the way things stand there is no evidence of a pregnancy or an abortion.

You are right, Dwilly. I was not insinuating it was a true rumor. Ruby Cameron's story has nothing to do with an abortion or pregnancy that I know of. I don't know about Gramma insinuating anything about McHenry/Trickey; it was before my time here.

I am just stating that this story was told to me the very first time I learned about Lizzie Borden. I was 10 or 11. I am just saying that the fact (and it is fact) that a Fall River doctor was indicted around the time of the murders for criminal abortion played into the McHenry/Trickey story where a man called Frederick Chase (or his wife) says they overheard Andrew confronting about her pregnancy.

I do not believe that I stated that an pregnancy/abortion was fact. I am saying a factual story about Dr. Noble was used to give credence to the rumor which was started locally about Lizzie and became incorporated into the McHenry/Trickey story.

I had never, until this day, heard that she stayed at a boarding house in Fall River. The boarding house, locally, has been her stop at the Pool house on her return trip from Marion. I had had the street where the Pools lived pointed out to me in my teens as the place where Lizzie got rid of her baby. Please note: my teens were well before Roe vs. Wade. The Lizzie story came up frequently among high school girls contemplating uses for wire coat hangers or throwing themselves down flights of stairs. Perhaps the continuing problems concerning teen pregnancy account for the popularity of this story at a time when all abortions were illegal. They understood a sense of desperation and powerless which they believed Lizzie shared. It created a sense of empathy with Lizzie.

My retelling it was meant to show how other local events came to color the Lizzie story. It was meant to stimulate creative thinking about how we look at events in the Lizzie story. It was not meant to create hostility.

And in regard to facts, even our police and court system build cases on circumstantial evidence.

I will say...

There is FAR more we do not know about Lizzie Borden than we ever will know...

Everyone has secrets. Every family has dynamics unseen to the outside world. Theirs, mine and yours.

Somewhere, sometime, someone knew something we don't.

Well said Auds...very well said.


Tracy...

nbcatlover @ Tue Jul 04, 2006 9:14 pm wrote:You are right, Dwilly. I was not insinuating it was a true rumor. Ruby Cameron's story has nothing to do with an abortion or pregnancy that I know of. I don't know about Gramma insinuating anything about McHenry/Trickey; it was before my time here.

I am just stating that this story was told to me the very first time I learned about Lizzie Borden. I was 10 or 11. I am just saying that the fact (and it is fact) that a Fall River doctor was indicted around the time of the murders for criminal abortion played into the McHenry/Trickey story where a man called Frederick Chase (or his wife) says they overheard Andrew confronting about her pregnancy.

I do not believe that I stated that an pregnancy/abortion was fact. I am saying a factual story about Dr. Noble was used to give credence to the rumor which was started locally about Lizzie and became incorporated into the McHenry/Trickey story.

I had never, until this day, heard that she stayed at a boarding house in Fall River. The boarding house, locally, has been her stop at the Pool house on her return trip from Marion. I had had the street where the Pools lived pointed out to me in my teens as the place where Lizzie got rid of her baby. Please note: my teens were well before Roe vs. Wade. The Lizzie story came up frequently among high school girls contemplating uses for wire coat hangers or throwing themselves down flights of stairs. Perhaps the continuing problems concerning teen pregnancy account for the popularity of this story at a time when all abortions were illegal. They understood a sense of desperation and powerless which they believed Lizzie shared. It created a sense of empathy with Lizzie.

My retelling it was meant to show how other local events came to color the Lizzie story. It was meant to stimulate creative thinking about how we look at events in the Lizzie story. It was not meant to create hostility.

And in regard to facts, even our police and court system build cases on circumstantial evidence.

Here are a few of my observations:

1. There were around Fall River rumors regarding Lizzie Borden and Nance O'Neil having a lesbian relationship. Victoria Lincoln even wrote about some of the "dirty old men" talking about it. Yet, posters here demand proof of such a relationship. Which is fine and I happen to agree that there should be more proof other than town scuttlebutt. However, in regard to this whole pregnancy and abortion thing it seems "circumstantial evidence" is now enough. One story demands proof and the other story doesn't. And what's funny about that is there's more evidence pointing to Lizzie having had an affair with Nance than ever being involved with David Anthony.

2. Speaking of "circumstantial evidence." I have yet to see any in this talk of Lizzie being pregnant. You are making one long stretch when you attempt to connect Lizzie to this doctor who was caught giving abortions. There were also taverns in Fall River does that mean Lizzie was a drunk too? I suppose there was even a man or woman who pimped a few women about Fall River. Does that mean Lizzie was a prostitute? Of course not.

3. The alleged person called Fredrick Chace and his wife (as far as I know) never testified in court. Matter of fact, has anyone ever found this so called couple? And what do you think about the fact that Alice Russell contradicts the time line?

I know you're not trying to be hostile and neither am I. I just happen to think this whole pregnancy theory is based more on what some people would like to believe and so what they do is try to find ways to (at least in their mind) make the story work.

Perhaps I am just a bit dense--- But I see no post where anyone stated they believed the pregnancy theory to be absolute fact.

Pardon me, and correct me if I am wrong-- but it seems you take offense to any theory or post that may indicate Lizzie was in any way involved in any heterosexual relationship or sexual activity.

We're talking town rumor. Everyone here probably realizes it is town rumor. It's not writen down anywhere. It might be laughable. I do not know what the big deal is. It's like protecting Lizzie's reputation is more important than trying to find justice for the victims.
I understand they are all dead. That is precisley why we can legally discuss this.
I think it is important to try to protect even dead people's dignity and reputation, and that's fine. If the objection was because it seems slanderous to Lizzie without proof- that is one thing. That could be an issue we should keep in mind. But it was a segment of a town talking, not Cynthia.

The books that include town rumor, and neighborhood anecdotes are usually the ones people find most interesting: Like Casebook of Family and Crime by Joyce Williams (the back section), and de Mille's Dance of Death, where she and the famous lawyer go 'round to the descendants of key characters and interview them for stories.
This stuff is fascinating. But no one says that is etched in stone either and yet it is actually published *information.*
As I said before- we are adults and we can trust ourselves and we can decide what emphasis to give things like this in our own minds.

Audrey @ Wed Jul 05, 2006 12:39 am wrote:Perhaps I am just a bit dense--- But I see no post where anyone stated they believed the pregnancy theory to be absolute fact.

Pardon me, and correct me if I am wrong-- but it seems you take offense to any theory or post that may indicate Lizzie was in any way involved in any heterosexual relationship or sexual activity.

Audrey, I have in the past discussed whether or not Lizzie may have been involved with Dr. Bowen. What I object to is:

1. The double standard on proof.

2. Liking a theory first and then trying to twist things into fitting it.


I thought this board was about being able to discuss parts of the Lizzie Borden case. Agreeing and disagreeing with fellow posters. Asking questions about various theories and, yes, at times both challenging other posters and in return being challenged on my own opinions. I was wrong.

Its interesting how many will reject Arnold Brown's solution, which is based on the Hawthore-Eagan memoirs, but will swallow any fanciful tales which have no independent verification!

Those who have "notes" from Hawthorne should first get them authenticated by a Questioned Document Examiner to verify the writings (no typing), the paper, and the ink. Then they can pursue whatever they want. Brown mentions his difficulty in assessing the notes, out of order, etc. by a man who was not a professional (salesman?).

I welcome any independent investigation as long as I don't have to pay for it. IF they can publish a book that outsells Brown, that would be an accomplishment.

DWilly @ Wed Jul 05, 2006 10:36 am wrote:

Audrey @ Wed Jul 05, 2006 12:39 am wrote:Perhaps I am just a bit dense--- But I see no post where anyone stated they believed the pregnancy theory to be absolute fact.

Pardon me, and correct me if I am wrong-- but it seems you take offense to any theory or post that may indicate Lizzie was in any way involved in any heterosexual relationship or sexual activity.

Audrey, I have in the past discussed whether or not Lizzie may have been involved with Dr. Bowen. What I object to is:

1. The double standard on proof.

2. Liking a theory first and then trying to twist things into fitting it.


I thought this board was about being able to discuss parts of the Lizzie Borden case. Agreeing and disagreeing with fellow posters. Asking questions about various theories and, yes, at times both challenging other posters and in return being challenged on my own opinions. I was wrong.

I think this board would be best w/o any speculation on "new facts" that are imagined. A section would be ok if marked "Current Speculations".
Just to set a standard between 'published facts' (right or wrong) and any person's speculations. Like "Emma & Lizzie hired the ice cream salesman"!!! !!! Who know what previously uncovered facts may occur, but anything too far out doesn't belong w/ factual comments.

Kat @ Tue Jul 04, 2006 4:25 am wrote:Maybe that's why Gramma used to caution us about the Trickey/McHenry story. She kept saying there might be more to the story- or at least *between the lines.* She probably had heard the rumors you refer to. I had never heard this before you brought it up.

Tracy, I think an author claims Lizzie stayed at a boarding house after returning to Fall River- correct? I mean that was what the writer meant- upon her return?

Arnold Brown says there was something in that story. Lawyer Jennings could have sued the Boston Globe, but settled for something else. Maybe he didn't want a two-front war? Or afterwards? I'll have to reread Brown, he and Radin do mention this in detail.

nbcatlover @ Tue Jul 04, 2006 1:21 am wrote:...
Carrie developed a form of consumption/TB (listed as phthisis on her death certificate and Lizzie went with Mrs. Pool and Carrie to visit Augusta (Pool) Tripp in Westport. The stay in "the boarding house" could have a hidden meaning or it could simply be an act of charity in assisting a very sick woman to complete a trip to her sister's house.
...

"Phthisis" is the Greek word for Tuberculosis or consumption (a euphemism). I think it means "wasting", the loss of weight. Probably used so people would not be scared needlessly. TB was the PRIME cause of death from the Civil War to after WW 2. It is a "social disease" cause by oppression and poor food. Recall the adulterated foods produced by the rising class of corporate grocery manufacturers. (Upton Sinclair's "The Jungle" is still the masterpiece about those times.)
Being contagious, mentioning TB could put that rooming house out of business. Ever hear people talk about a house where there was a murder?

DWilly @ Wed Jul 05, 2006 9:36 am wrote:

Audrey @ Wed Jul 05, 2006 12:39 am wrote:Perhaps I am just a bit dense--- But I see no post where anyone stated they believed the pregnancy theory to be absolute fact.

Pardon me, and correct me if I am wrong-- but it seems you take offense to any theory or post that may indicate Lizzie was in any way involved in any heterosexual relationship or sexual activity.

Audrey, I have in the past discussed whether or not Lizzie may have been involved with Dr. Bowen. What I object to is:

1. The double standard on proof.

2. Liking a theory first and then trying to twist things into fitting it.


I thought this board was about being able to discuss parts of the Lizzie Borden case. Agreeing and disagreeing with fellow posters. Asking questions about various theories and, yes, at times both challenging other posters and in return being challenged on my own opinions. I was wrong.

I thought that was all I was doing-- challenging.

I do not have a 'theory' of the crimes.

I fail to see this double standard you keep going on about...

I also fail to see it.
Responsible posters doubt much and do not try to force facts to fit a preconceived theory. There would be no point to that. We try to consider most sides and most approaches.

Just my own nickel’s worth here, but I wonder if the confusion here might be because there’s so much folklore interwoven with the “facts” of the case – “fact” I use here meaning:

That which is or may be judged as “fact” because we have credible, incontrovertible evidence at hand to support it. We know both Andrew and Abby Borden were horribly murdered, for instance. Supporting the “truth of the matter” are among other things photographic evidence, the existence of two autopsy reports, and “first person” evidence in the form of statements given by people who were present in the house that day, several of whom saw one or both bodies with their own eyes.

This is one class of “proof.”

On the other hand, regarding the “Lizzie had a…” –
insert almost anything here, be it boyfriend, girlfriend, what have you – stories are out there, but fall more in the line of folklore than history, in that they are “often unsupported notions, stories, or sayings that is widely circulated.”

In this instance of course, the only “proof” we have is the existence of the tales themselves, by virtue of the fact that they were either written down or otherwise recorded. Absent in these stories oftentimes of course is supporting evidence. Without that, we have little more than a barrel of apocrypha.

Weems' tale of George and the cherry tree comes to mind here.

Is there a “double standard”? I would say yes there is. But it’s a necessary standard which we use in order to remind ourselves which direction is “Up” in studying this case.

Just because Mrs. Tusic Toucanella said it doesn't make it true. An unimpeachable source she may be - but what about her sources? How reliable are they?

Reading these posts with interest, I see Audrey touched on the one fact that everyone seems to forget when speculating on whether Lizzie was pregnant or had an abortion at the time of the murders. IF, and I'm only saying IF, Lizzie had had an abortion around the time of the murders, she would have definitely been bleeding very heavily for several weeks, much like giving birth. Obviously she wasn't. IF she'd had an abortion, it would have to have been several weeks prior to the murders. I'm sure all the rumors were just that..rumors! I'm sure there were all kinds of wild stories about Lizzie going around at the time.

Those are good points you guys.
Let's ask tho- do we know that Lizzie wasn't bleeding "very heavily?" We don't know if the Poole family was asked. We do know there were bloody towels in a bucket the week- or day- of the murders.
But yes, we have identified some stories as rumors, I agree.
They become part of the legend. If we don't air them, we do a disservice, as long as they are identified as such.

Occam's Razor still cuts thru the BS.
Was this mentioned at the time in the newspapers?
IF not then, when. Anything invented after Lizzie's death is scrap.

It's probably fall-out from the Trickey/McHenry bogus article.
If the question is about the bloody cloths in the pail, they were identified as Lizzie's- I think the defense stipulated at trial they were hers from her menstuation and that had ended Wednesday night.
Knowlton would not accept any answer about those cloths at the preliminary hearing, but by trial he did.

Kat @ Thu Jul 06, 2006 5:50 pm wrote:.
But yes, we have identified some stories as rumors, I agree.
They become part of the legend. If we don't air them, we do a disservice, as long as they are identified as such.

And if we air them then we must also show what's wrong with the rumors and the tactics used by those who want to continue to spread those rumors. For example:


1. The Trickey/McHenry story about Lizzie allegedly being pregnant is riddled with major problems. First off is the story about a man named Fredrick Chace. In this article it is claimed that Chace and his wife over heard an argument between Lizzie and her father. The problem is no Fredrick Chace was ever found. Neither he nor his wife ever testified in court. As far as I know no one ever found this so called "Chace." He and his wife remain only in Trickey and McHenry's mind and in the mind of those individuals who want to believe the story. This is simply a bad source. It would not be accepted in any respectable article.

2. Alice Russell, who did testify in court and we know is a real person, contradicts the time line Trickey/McHenry gave.


3. Using really bad connections. In other words posting that just because Fall River had a doctor who got caught giving abortions that some how that means Lizzie may have gotten one. I would love to see someone try to pass this off in a history department. This isn't even circumstantial evidence. It's just an example of bad logic.


So, if rumors are going to be allowed then those rumors can and should be questioned.

Kat @ Thu Jul 06, 2006 5:50 pm wrote:Those are good points you guys.
Let's ask tho- do we know that Lizzie wasn't bleeding "very heavily?" We don't know if the Poole family was asked. We do know there were bloody towels in a bucket the week- or day- of the murders.
But yes, we have identified some stories as rumors, I agree.
They become part of the legend. If we don't air them, we do a disservice, as long as they are identified as such.

Do we even know if she was in fact bleeding at all? What if she just made up the whole story about being on her period to explain away the blood on the rags?

then too, the "bleeding heavily" thing really (I can almost hear the Tonight Show audience of old, How heavy was it?) has to be "watched" for lack of a better term. One person's heavily might just as well be another's well, not much. know what i mean? there's no means of objective, "observable" measurement.

What is the timeline I keep reading about here?