Lizzie Borden Society Forum

I recall reading in various places that Lizzie either was there or wasn't there when the robbery occurred - is there a definitive answer somewhere? If she wasn't at home that day, do we know where she was? Other than this incident and the later Tilden-Thurber "theft" (she settled privately with the store I think?), was there ever any other suggestion that Lizzie might've stolen things?

Yes Lizzie was there at the time of the robbery. This is from Alice Russell's trial testimony. page 378, in regard to what Lizzie told her the evening before the crimes:

"....."Well," she says, "they have broken into the house in broad daylight, with Emma and Maggie and me there." And I said, "I never heard of that before." And she said, "Father forbade our telling it." So I asked her about it, and she said it was in Mrs. Borden's room, what she called her dressing room. She said her things were ransacked, and they took a watch and chain and money and car tickets, and something else that I can't remember. And there was a nail left in the keyhole; she didn't know why that was left; whether they got in with it or what. I asked her if her father did anything about it, and she said he gave it to the police, but they didn't find out anything; and she said father expected that they would catch the thief by the tickets. She remarked, "Just as if anybody would use those tickets."

Harry @ Fri Jul 07, 2006 12:27 pm wrote:Yes Lizzie was there at the time of the robbery. This is from Alice Russell's trial testimony. page 378, in regard to what Lizzie told her the evening before the crimes:

"....."Well," she says, "they have broken into the house in broad daylight, with Emma and Maggie and me there." And I said, "I never heard of that before." And she said, "Father forbade our telling it." So I asked her about it, and she said it was in Mrs. Borden's room, what she called her dressing room. She said her things were ransacked, and they took a watch and chain and money and car tickets, and something else that I can't remember. And there was a nail left in the keyhole; she didn't know why that was left; whether they got in with it or what. I asked her if her father did anything about it, and she said he gave it to the police, but they didn't find out anything; and she said father expected that they would catch the thief by the tickets. She remarked, "Just as if anybody would use those tickets."

THIS can explain why they kept the doors locked during the daytime.
Or is they another reason before this?

I think this is exactly the reason Andrew's stairway door was locked. The door between Lizzie's and Andrew's rooms might have been locked out of respect for privacy. The key being kept on the mantle, in plain view, seems to send no message to anyone innocent of the robbery, but to someone guilty of the robbery it says "go ahead, try it again!".

Without knowing the details of their life, just ask if children today like their privacy, and their parents too. Yes? Then that's why they have locks on bedrooms, but not closets. (And why parents have that long thin key to unlock a bedroom door.)
What was your experience as a child?

Andrew kept his bedroom door locked that was off the back hall, and yes the connecting door between what had once been Emma's room but was now Lizzie's was locked.
We've discussed a reasonable *Why?* as to his bedroom door and the exposed key on the mantle.

Kat @ Sat Jul 08, 2006 1:07 am wrote:Andrew kept his bedroom door locked that was off the back hall, and yes the connecting door between what had once been Emma's room but was now Lizzie's was locked.
We've discussed a reasonable *Why?* as to his bedroom door and the exposed key on the mantle.

But the connecting door lock to Lizzie's room was just a hook and eye!!! A chest of drawers could be easily pushed open by an adult.

Lizzie said that connecting door took a key to open.
On her side was a hook and eye, and it took a key. She said it would take 2 keys to get from her room out into the back hall from the elder's bedroon, imlying his bedroom door on the back hall used a different key than the connecting door to her room, and that the connecting door key could be used from either side.
Do you ever read any testimony? Just wondering?

Thanks Harry for the testimony from the trial - I haven't got that much of it printed out yet (computer issues ). There seems to be so much misinformation presented by the various theorists. I do find it fascinating to read the inquest testimony, witness statements, etc.

I suppose all the locks used in the house does appear to be overkill, but then we all have our idiosyncrasies. Kat - was the reasonable *Why* of the door-locking discussed recently? I will have to look for it.

Yes, in the distant past when Edisto was around, we had discussed that the Borden house was sometimes used as a place of business. Andrew had meetings with people on business at his home, around 11 until dinner. If your home invited strangers in then you might lock all your private doors. We had also compared this to Dr. Kelly next door. He had an office in his home, or at least visiting nurses came there- they had to admit the public, so to speak. I suppose Dr. Bowen did too?

So if I were Lizzie, I'd keep my room locked- especially after that robbery. I think Abby would also, and probably so would Bridget. That covers the rooms on the second floor and Bridget's attic room. I do believe the remaining rooms in the attic were also kept locked but Bridget seems to have had that key or keys. As for the cellar- Sawyer says he locked the door to the cellar on the murder morning, because he thought there might still be someone down there- he was being cautious. But we don't know if it was already locked in some way of which he might not be aware.

This is just an overview of our discussions. We were going by what we knew, rather than what melodramatic scenes an author might create.

We also asked Lee-ann, a member here, and owner of the B&B, how many keys were turned over to her when she bought the place!

[Edit here]: And Morse was asked about locking doors and he said the Borden's were always careful about that. But you might check whether he meant only exterior doors.

We had thought the key on the mantle might be because Abby and Andrew shared it. That one might leave it there for the convenience of the other and a stranger would not know what it was for. Also, if the key was gone from the mantle, everyone in the house could assume one or other of the elder Borden's were in their bedroom. So if Abby was home and up there, the key would be gone from the mantle. Maybe that's why Andrew supposedly asked where Abby was. Because Abby didn't greet him and the key was still there?

It's interesting when Morse points out that the Bordens were careful about locking the doors. (Inquest, 102)

Doesn't it seem strange then, that Andrew left by the side door (as John indicated was his habit)? Morse says at the inquest that when he left by that exit on the morning of the murders, Andrew hooked the door. He says the screen door was "always" kept fastened. (Inquest, 102)

Both Lizzie and Bridget say they didn't see Andrew leave that morning. But if he did leave by the side door, then he would have to have left an exterior door unlocked when he went.

I'm guessing he left when Bridget was out in the yard being sick. Possibly he looked over at her and figured she'd be back in the house soon enough that the screen could be left unsecured temporarily.

Thanks Kat for bringing me up to speed I hadn't thought about the fact that Andrew's normal practice was to do business at home - the locking of doors to private areas would be common sense under those circumstances.

My husband & I recently bought a house built in 1902, with many original features still intact. Every interior door has a lock requiring a key - so it appears to me that it was the norm for interior doors to have the option of being locked. Perhaps this was part of the Victorian sensibility? I've not noticed interior door locks as much in contemporary homes.

Diana, that's an interesting point you brought up - I wonder if Andrew had everyone so well-trained that he didn't have to worry about locking up outside doors himself. The side door was Bridget's responsibility, I believe...

Kat @ Sat Jul 08, 2006 3:05 pm wrote:Lizzie said that connecting door took a key to open.
On her side was a hook and eye, and it took a key. She said it would take 2 keys to get from her room out into the back hall from the elder's bedroon, imlying his bedroom door on the back hall used a different key than the connecting door to her room, and that the connecting door key could be used from either side.
Do you ever read any testimony? Just wondering?

The house that I grew up in had those old style locks, a round stick key with a square on the end. Easily picked open with a skeleton key. But in those days, as today, locks only kept out honest people. Burglars go to reform school (prison) to learn how to pick locks and be a better burglar.
Watch the movie "Niagara"? See how they left the key in the outside door for customers? Those were the days!
(I wonder if that was true or just part of the movie plot?)

andrea @ Mon Jul 10, 2006 8:26 pm wrote:Thanks Kat for bringing me up to speed I hadn't thought about the fact that Andrew's normal practice was to do business at home - the locking of doors to private areas would be common sense under those circumstances.

My husband & I recently bought a house built in 1902, with many original features still intact. Every interior door has a lock requiring a key - so it appears to me that it was the norm for interior doors to have the option of being locked. Perhaps this was part of the Victorian sensibility? I've not noticed interior door locks as much in contemporary homes.

Diana, that's an interesting point you brought up - I wonder if Andrew had everyone so well-trained that he didn't have to worry about locking up outside doors himself. The side door was Bridget's responsibility, I believe...

Simple folk lived in one-room cabins. Doors were for privacy, also to keep the heat in. Victorian habits were another thing. Today's open spaces in a home are not good for controlling heat or coolness.
My family always used the back door, the front door was for visitors or special events as it led to the "parlor" or living room.

In "Bowling for Columbine" Michael Moore made the point that Canadians seldom locked their front doors. Was that just a trick in a movie? Canadians have a higher rate of gun ownership than Americans, common in agricultural communities.
Growing up in 1940s & 1950s we never locked the doors except at night. A locked door doesn't make sense when children are always coming in or out. An that was in a small city.
I have relatives in a rural village (north of Williamsport) who never lock their doors. (One reason is that burglars won't break windows to get in when nobody is home.) The other is that strangers are rare, children are behaved (strap or paddle).
But I can't speak about things since the 1980s.

I was re-reading my response to andrea and got to wondering about that key on the mantle. If our theory is correct that Abby & Andrew shared the bedroom key and if it was gone off the mantle that would show any household member one or the other elder's were in their room- when Lizzie supposedly said *will you look- I thought I heard her (Abby) come in*- it would have to be known she was not in her room because there is Andrew dead and the key not gone from the sitting room.