Lizzie Borden Society Forum

In some books I read, they talk about Abby being a shut-in, of planning to visit the outside world days or even weeks before she does. But in Lizzie's inquest testimony, she replies that it was common for Mrs. Borden to go out daily to get groceries.

I know that Abby could still have been a shut-in and gone out daily to get groceries since I have known people with agoraphobia who are comfortable with going within a few blocks of where they live. But doesn't her daily trips outside make it a little more credible that Lizzie was confused as to where Abby was between 9:30 and 11:00?

Lizzie was given multiple chances to say that she thought Abby had gone ahead and gone out to do the daily grocery shopping but instead she said she thought a note had called Abby away. Maybe Abby didn't usually go out so early as 9 or 9:30, so Lizzie could not use that excuse.
It seems Mrs. Emery did her noon meal shopping the minute Morse left. We alse see Mrs. Churchill returning from her noon meal shopping around the time Andrew was found dead- this would be about 11:10 for Adelaide and a bit later than that for Mrs. Emery because Morse lingered.

This tends to show a pattern of these women getting some fresh food around the 11 o'clock hour. So we might assume Abby did the same.
Lizzie is asked where the heck she thought Abby was from 9:30 or so until she was found. Thus the note story, possibly.

I always thought the condition of Abby being reclusive was over stated. In addition to the shopping we know that she visited her sister on Fourth St. She attended church, sometimes even accompanied by Lizzie.

Then we have the incident when she and Mrs. Dr. Bowen were returning home where Abby mentions her key being taken. And didn't Mrs. Bowen say Abby was one of her dearest friends.

Diana located a May 1891 document a while back which showed a "Mrs. Andrew J. Borden" as a member of the Women's Auxiliary of the Y.M.C.A. We have never been able to prove, one way or the other, that this Mrs. Borden was our Abby but it is not an impossibility. One of the other members of that group was the wife of Dr. Handy, the very same Handy who owned the cottage at Marion where Lizzie was supposed to go fishing.

I think Abby more or less followed Andrew's lead and shied away from social gatherings. He was a stay-at-home kind of guy which severely narrowed her opportunities outside the house.

Even though Abby had Bridget to help, I have always gotten the sense that she too worked around the house.

She may not have had much time for 'gadding' about.

I agree with Harry-- she wasn't a recluse and also-- her wasn't 'morbidly obese' like some writers like to state-- Her weight didn't keep her home.

My last read through of Lizzie's testimony made me feel like she was telling the truth, despite her contradictions. I would think that someone who is lying wouldn't make so many contradictions. She seemed like someone who was confused (which she admits at one point), willing to cooperate but a bit freaked out by Knowlton's aggressiveness, and perhaps very muddled by the stress and anxiety of finding your parents hacked to death.

I know this Forum has probably hashed and rehashed the issue a million times before, but it seems to me that the killer could have given Abby a note trying to get her out of the house so they could kill Andrew. And when it was obvious she wasn't leaving, killed her but aborted Andrew's murder because Lizzie was moving about the house and Andrew left for down street. Then when she went out to the barn, the killer took his opportunity to strike again.

Two curious bits of Lizzie's tesitomy is that she said the door to the guest room was closed (Abby was shutting up the room because she was going to have houseguests on Monday -- I wonder if we know who had been invited) and later when Mrs Churchill and Bridget went up the stairs to look for Abby, the door was open.

If the door had been closed when Lizzie went upstairs with her laundry and to "bast some tape on a dress", then the door must have been opened up again at some point. Perhaps the killer opened it again while Lizzie was in the barn?

Also Lizzie said she closed the screen door when she went to the barn, but when she came back it was opened.

Assuming she's innocent, doesn't this all indicate someone else moving about the house?

One last thing...if Abby was making up the guest room and closing it up for future guests, doesn't that imply that Uncle John would have been leaving before nightfall?

It's maddening to think that Lizzie's statement about Abby having guests the following week was never followed up on. I guess the guests and the messenger all got together and decided to remain silent! It was only a murder trial, after all!

I think, also, that we have Miss Lincoln to blame for a lot of the image as Abby as house-bound. It's essential to her theory (the note was a prop to get Abby out of the house to sign the property papers) that Abby be perceived as a shut-in, thus the necessity for the note, so that Lizzie won't suspect that Abby's up to something. Of course, Lincoln has Lizzie intecept the overly-blabby note, and it sets her off.

Audrey @ Thu Jul 13, 2006 9:41 am wrote:Even though Abby had Bridget to help, I have always gotten the sense that she too worked around the house.

She may not have had much time for 'gadding' about.

I agree with Harry-- she wasn't a recluse and also-- her wasn't 'morbidly obese' like some writers like to state-- Her weight didn't keep her home.

I believe Abby spent time with her relatives, but I have no documentary proof. We know that Abby Borden Whitehead was supposed to visit there Thursday, but it was cancelled Wed night (after Uncle John arrived). That seems like there was secret meeting or business planned?

Sullivan, Robert. Goodbye Lizzie Borden
pg. 34-35:Penguin Books Great Britain, 1974
A distressing footnote was supplied by Mrs. Abby Potter, who told me:

"On the morning of 4 August, the day of the murders, my mother [Mrs. Sarah Whitehead], planning to attend the policemen's annual picnic at Rocky Point, was making arrangements for the care of my younger brother and myself. George was to go to [another aunt's house], and I was to spend the day with Aunt Abby at 92 Second Street. At the last moment there was a change in plans, and I was sent with my brother to [my other aunt's] house, which was next door to the home of Marshal Hilliard in another section of Fall River.
In the late afternoon while I was helping Aunt Lucy wash windows, Marshal Hilliard returned home, and, standing in the yard, informed Aunt Lucy of Aunt Abby's murder. The shock of the news was so great that Aunt Lucy dropped the window on my hand."

Sullivan recounts that the note was to Abby to go out on a sick call.
Bridget at the preliminary hearing says Lizzie said "She had a note, so it must be in town." (33)

I don't yet see in Sullivan, who took Abby Potter to Fall River from Providence, any claim that the note came from the Whitehead house. Lizzie seemed to think it was not the Whitehead's who sent for Abby.

Just checking.

Abby Potter was 89 when she spoke with Judge Sullivan. He mentions no one else had ever interviewed her. He also says there was some "family lore" involved.
I don't think Hilliard lived next door to Lil' Abby's aunt- but Harry would know.

Kat @ Fri Jul 14, 2006 1:46 am wrote:I don't think Hilliard lived next door to Lil' Abby's aunt- but Harry would know.

No, he did not. Just another author unwilling to make an effort and check the facts.

The aunt that little Abby stayed with was Lucy Cahoon. She lived at 28 Whipple St. Marshal Hilliard lived at 2 Durfee Street. Whipple Street is south of the Borden house, Durfee north of the house.

Abby Potter may have her names mixed up as there are quite a few people mentioned in the Borden saga who did reside on Whipple Street. There was police officer Albert E. Chace who lived at 34 Whipple. Chace was on duty when Morse buried the clothes behind the barn.

Eli Bence lived at 21 Whipple.
Thomas Kieran boarded at 38 Whipple
Two names in the witness statements, Ida P. Gray and Leander Winslow, lived at 27 Whipple and 28 Whipple respectively.

Note that Leander Winslow lived in the same house as Lucy Cahoon. He testified that he was standing at 95 Second Street the morning of the murders when the elusive Mary Wyatt told him of the murders.

Abby Borden Potter Whitehead was 89 when Judge Robert Sullivan interviewed her. How nice she lived a long happy life.
But sometimes the memories of children, and adults, get a little mixed up over scores of years. How she remembers it may not be 1000% accurate as to details.
But I believe her story about being originally scheduled to visit Aunt Abby. But suppose that was made up by her Mom to impress young Abby about the narrow escape she had? Her story does lack any corroboration, doesn't it?

Did I ever tell you about the time I was supposed to go into New York, but didn't, and the train fell into Newark Bay? That's how I remember it, don't ask me for documentary proof.

For it is impossible for anyone to begin to learn that which he thinks he already knows.
...Epictetus

And there you have it!
People who are sure they know the details will not look it up.
I'm not faulting little Abby, but maybe she remembers things that do not match the records. You can catch other authors in this mistake.

There was a time 30 years ago when my little 8-year old niece was over, and was looking at my closet. She then told her parents that I had a dress just like hers! Everyone laughed; my solid colored T-shirt did sort of look like the dress she had on.

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I don't get it?

Anyway, that's my point about Lil' Abby. Memories get mixed up. Sometimes people slightly misremember a story and in the retelling it gets what I call *written in stone*. Ever after, that becomes the truth as the person sees it.

Lil' Abby also told that story about Lizzie and the cat and she sounds like she hated Lizzie.
I don't know how someone can live to age 90 full of hate like that?

I have never read about Abby being a shut in. Is there any proof-- medical proof I mean. I have just never heard that before.

Snok...by medical proof, do you mean a diagnosis of some form of agoraphobia ?


Tracy...

I never heard any one claim any medical proof that Abby had agoraphobia.

I have never heard that claim either, Richard. I have not read or heard about Abby having any chronic physical or mental conditions which would make it necessary for her to be homebound. Other than her acute case of being sick within a few days of the murders...I know of nothing else...not yet anyway.

Tracy...

I believe I first used the word Agoraphobia (see above). I was only saying that many of the Borden writers have made Abby into a shut-in who rarely went out and I commented that Abby did indeed go out often, if only for small domestic errands. I commented that I have known people with agoraphobia who were able to go short distances for crucial day to day things like groceries.

I think her not going out was more likely a by-product of Andrew not being a very friend-oriented person. It doesn't seem like he really had many close friends or many social contacts outside of business and money. He kept his daughters on a tight leash (they never dated it seems) and I can imagine him not prefering his wife to have a rich social life. Abby no doubt followed her husband's lead in keeping things close to home.

Yes Richard, I did read your post beginning this thread. I should have acknowledged in my post, my comments on the possibility of agoraphobia were a rehash of what you had already mentioned. I sincerely apologize for not doing so.


Tracy...

Ooo, not a problem. I was trying to think of why I mentioned it in the first place. I don't have the Frank Spiering book on hand, but since that was, sadly enough, the only book on Lizzie Borden I had read in a ten year time period (before discovering this forum a few years back!) a lot stuck in my head which I needed to subsequently unstick.

Kat @ Sun Jul 16, 2006 4:29 am wrote:
I don't get it?

Anyway, that's my point about Lil' Abby. Memories get mixed up. Sometimes people slightly misremember a story and in the retelling it gets what I call *written in stone*. Ever after, that becomes the truth as the person sees it.

Lil' Abby also told that story about Lizzie and the cat and she sounds like she hated Lizzie.
I don't know how someone can live to age 90 full of hate like that?

I'm sure that Abby's relatives filled Little Abby's head with stories about that mean old Lizzie, who was probably guilty but paid off the judges, etc. etc.
I don't know much about A.B.P. Whitehead, but I suppose she had children who may still live there?

Angel @ Fri Jul 14, 2006 3:12 pm wrote:

Audrey @ Fri Jul 14, 2006 2:49 pm wrote:did she see you in the closet or have you come out of it?

Documented proof!

Thanks for preserving Audrey's comments (you can judge her mindset).
But a man's solid color T-shirt (maroon?) must have looked like a dress to an 8-yr old.

Why are you showing a man who is nude below the waist? Is this some kind of weird story? (Remember that Archie Bunker episode?)

Richard @ Thu Jul 13, 2006 9:55 am wrote:My last read through of Lizzie's testimony made me feel like she was telling the truth, despite her contradictions. I would think that someone who is lying wouldn't make so many contradictions. She seemed like someone who was confused (which she admits at one point), willing to cooperate but a bit freaked out by Knowlton's aggressiveness, and perhaps very muddled by the stress and anxiety of finding your parents hacked to death.

I know this Forum has probably hashed and rehashed the issue a million times before, but it seems to me that the killer could have given Abby a note trying to get her out of the house so they could kill Andrew. And when it was obvious she wasn't leaving, killed her but aborted Andrew's murder because Lizzie was moving about the house and Andrew left for down street. Then when she went out to the barn, the killer took his opportunity to strike again.

Two curious bits of Lizzie's tesitomy is that she said the door to the guest room was closed (Abby was shutting up the room because she was going to have houseguests on Monday -- I wonder if we know who had been invited) and later when Mrs Churchill and Bridget went up the stairs to look for Abby, the door was open.

If the door had been closed when Lizzie went upstairs with her laundry and to "bast some tape on a dress", then the door must have been opened up again at some point. Perhaps the killer opened it again while Lizzie was in the barn?

Also Lizzie said she closed the screen door when she went to the barn, but when she came back it was opened.

Assuming she's innocent, doesn't this all indicate someone else moving about the house?

One last thing...if Abby was making up the guest room and closing it up for future guests, doesn't that imply that Uncle John would have been leaving before nightfall?

Congratulations on thinking for yourself and not parroting any one book.
I once read a "courtroom drama" novel, and the defense lawyer said an honest person will often mix things up and contradict themselves. Its only the guilty who prepare a story and stick with it.
Also, unaided memory can play tricks on a person.

My interpretation, is that the Secret Visitor was introduced into the house that morning when people were saying goodbye to Uncle John at the back door, away from the front door. The Visitor was to meet with Andy after Abby was sent on a mission (sick call).
Things went awry, as they often do in real life.

Richard @ Thu Jul 13, 2006 9:55 am wrote:My last read through of Lizzie's testimony made me feel like she was telling the truth, despite her contradictions. I would think that someone who is lying wouldn't make so many contradictions. She seemed like someone who was confused (which she admits at one point), willing to cooperate but a bit freaked out by Knowlton's aggressiveness, and perhaps very muddled by the stress and anxiety of finding your parents hacked to death.

I know this Forum has probably hashed and rehashed the issue a million times before, but it seems to me that the killer could have given Abby a note trying to get her out of the house so they could kill Andrew. And when it was obvious she wasn't leaving, killed her but aborted Andrew's murder because Lizzie was moving about the house and Andrew left for down street. Then when she went out to the barn, the killer took his opportunity to strike again.

Two curious bits of Lizzie's tesitomy is that she said the door to the guest room was closed (Abby was shutting up the room because she was going to have houseguests on Monday -- I wonder if we know who had been invited) and later when Mrs Churchill and Bridget went up the stairs to look for Abby, the door was open.

If the door had been closed when Lizzie went upstairs with her laundry and to "bast some tape on a dress", then the door must have been opened up again at some point. Perhaps the killer opened it again while Lizzie was in the barn?

Also Lizzie said she closed the screen door when she went to the barn, but when she came back it was opened.

Assuming she's innocent, doesn't this all indicate someone else moving about the house?

One last thing...if Abby was making up the guest room and closing it up for future guests, doesn't that imply that Uncle John would have been leaving before nightfall?

I think Lizzie was confused because she didn't expect to be questioned as much as she was. I think she thought the police would pretty much take her story as is and then go off looking for someone else. That and maybe some of the morphine that Dr. Bowen gave her may have mixed her up a bit.

Also, I can't see some other killer wanting to get Abby out of the house but not Lizzie and Bridget. Why not just try and lure Andrew off some place alone and kill him there? And why the over kill on Abby? I would think if it were a man who simply wanted Abby out of the way he could easily over power her and a few hits to the head would be enough. To me nineteen hits on an over weight, defenseless old woman is a bit much for a young man. I see too much emotion in that killing. The killer ( Lizzie) hated Abby.

I fully agree that Lizzie expected to be treated with respect and have her words taken for fact without question.

I think Lizzie was confused because she didn't expect to be questioned as much as she was. I think she thought the police would pretty much take her story as is and then go off looking for someone else. That and maybe some of the morphine that Dr. Bowen gave her may have mixed her up a bit.

Also, I can't see some other killer wanting to get Abby out of the house but not Lizzie and Bridget. Why not just try and lure Andrew off some place alone and kill him there? And why the over kill on Abby? I would think if it were a man who simply wanted Abby out of the way he could easily over power her and a few hits to the head would be enough. To me nineteen hits on an over weight, defenseless old woman is a bit much for a young man. I see too much emotion in that killing. The killer ( Lizzie) hated Abby.

Your reasoning assumes that murder was planned or premeditated.
I suggest the reason for getting Abby out of the house was to facilitate a meeting with Andy. (As per Brown's theory.)
Doesn't this make more sense? The Secret Visitor went crazy when discovered by Abby.
"How in God's name did this happen?" The best laid plans of mice and men still go awry.

Yes the question becomes why kill Abby because she is *in the way* but not Lizzie and Bridget?
We have to take into account why not.

Maybe since Abby and Andrew did not appear to *entertain*, they did not expect to be entertained. Meaning not invited anywhere because there was possibly an unstated agreement they would not reciprocate. Those kinds of manners were crucial back then.