Lizzie Borden Society Forum

While looking for info on Maplecroft I ran across this paragraph in Spiering's book, "Lizzie", page 202:

"In that basement, cut off from the world, surrounded by various small rooms for storage, she installed a billiards room with felt cue holders lining the walls."

To paraphrase the song from The Music Man -

Oh, we got trouble!
Right here in Fall River City!
Right here in Fall River City!
With a capital “T” and that rhymes with “P”
And that stands for pool!

Once again Lizzie defies the norms of society. Way to go Lizzie!

That is so cool Harry! At least we know she liked billards, or maybe it was to keep her actor friends occupied while she had them over.

Thanks Harry! That's pretty funny! I wonder when this game room came into existence- pre-Emma leaving or post-Emma leaving (?) and I wonder how the heck Spiering knew about it?'
As you know he was not averse to making details up.
Hmmm...

What a weird place for a billiards room! Not at all the kind of place she would have used to entertain guests, I think, "surrounded by various small rooms for storage". I'm also thinking of the conditions down there. I wonder how long a cue would stay straight in a damp environment. Do we know what the conditions of the Maplecroft cellar were like?
I would have no trouble believing the story if the billiards room had been placed in any other part of the house, but the basement.......?

Airmid.

This really has nothing to do with the murder mystery.
I once read that billiards became popular circa 1850 when touring English billiard players put on their spectacular shows. "Putting English on the ball" meant to use these techniques in place of the usual poke and push.
An offset hit of the ball would send it on a curve, etc.

Note that this moved "sports" into the home from the outside. A sign of larger homes with special use rooms for the new class of the very rich?

Some of the more well-heeled folk did strange things with their basements. Some people I know here in New Bedford found that half their basement was actually a ballroom dancing floor with the walls and support beam painted up like a ship.

This Wikipedia article has a picture of a historic billiard room in a house in Toronto:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Billiard_room

If Lizzie entertained down in the basement, it would have given her and her guests more privacy from spying eyes.

This site has some interesting billiard players listed:
http://www.byrne.org/pool/history.html

It seems Queen Victoria installed a billiard table at Windsor Castle in 1838, so I guess that would make the game pretty acceptable in society.

Maybe if true, it was for the use of her coachman?

nbcatlover @ Tue Jul 18, 2006 8:32 pm wrote:Some of the more well-heeled folk did strange things with their basements. Some people I know here in New Bedford found that half their basement was actually a ballroom dancing floor with the walls and support beam painted up like a ship.

This Wikipedia article has a picture of a historic billiard room in a house in Toronto:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Billiard_room

If Lizzie entertained down in the basement, it would have given her and her guests more privacy from spying eyes.

This site has some interesting billiard players listed:
http://www.byrne.org/pool/history.html

It seems Queen Victoria installed a billiard table at Windsor Castle in 1838, so I guess that would make the game pretty acceptable in society.

I believe the reputation of "pool rooms" derived from the public version, a hangout for bookmakers, pool sharks, and other disreputable persons (by the standards of that day). An all-male club, even today.
Was it in the film "Grapes of Wrath" where the land owners recruited thugs from the "pool room"?

I think the usage of the word is "pool sharp."

If you build a pool room, guys will come. Maybe it was a babe magnate?

Maybe it's why Emma left?

Reading through these posts, it dawned to me that we have quite different views on the game of billiards.
Perhaps I generalize too much, but it seems to me that the American view of billiards is as a lower class sport, while on the other hand, I, as European, tend to see billiards as an upper class sport. I would associate a "billiards room" with English country houses and mansions, and posh London gentlemen's clubs. I would see a billiards room as a status symbol, much like a library.
When I read about the possibility that Lizzie had a billiards room installed in Maplecroft, I wasn't surprised at all. It would be the logical thing to do if Lizzie wanted to add to her social status, especially if she wanted to entertain guests at Maplecroft. What seems odd to me though is the location, in the basement, an area of the house that would normally be the servants' domain.

So, I guess we represent two extreme views here! And what would Lizzies views have been, somewhere in the middle?

Airmid.

I think Lizzie would have enjoyed seeming a more sophisticated Euro-type!

But then on the other hand-- why do most Europeans think we are more sophisticated than Americans?

Airmid @ Thu Jul 20, 2006 7:41 am wrote:Reading through these posts, it dawned to me that we have quite different views on the game of billiards.
Perhaps I generalize too much, but it seems to me that the American view of billiards is as a lower class sport, while on the other hand, I, as European, tend to see billiards as an upper class sport. I would associate a "billiards room" with English country houses and mansions, and posh London gentlemen's clubs. I would see a billiards room as a status symbol, much like a library.
When I read about the possibility that Lizzie had a billiards room installed in Maplecroft, I wasn't surprised at all. It would be the logical thing to do if Lizzie wanted to add to her social status, especially if she wanted to entertain guests at Maplecroft. What seems odd to me though is the location, in the basement, an area of the house that would normally be the servants' domain.

So, I guess we represent two extreme views here! And what would Lizzies views have been, somewhere in the middle?

Airmid.

Well, it's possible she may have wanted to fix the room up and started to do that then lost interest in fixing it up. Just got part of the job done. She could have then left it for the servants to use. Especially since other rooms may have been off limits to the servants. Lizzie had her study which may have been her room to relax and she seemed to have enjoyed sitting out on her porch too. So, in their off time the basement may have been where the servants went. Out of sight and out of the way.

Now it is possible that Lizzie may have also used the billiard room if she wanted privacy. Keep in mind that it was rumored that around the turn of the century that Lizzie may have had an affair with a married woman from Worcester County. So, that may have been a good place for Lizzie to "entertain" the woman.

quite simply, it may have been the only room of adequate size (in the basement) for the table. Maplecroft is/was not the 'mansion' many have termed it to be.

I think we need to keep in mind that there may very well have been no billiard table at all. Frank Spiering put things in his book that have later turned out not to be true. Does anyone know if Ernest Terry or another member of his family was ever found trying to sell a billiard table?

I don't think today that billiards or pool generates that much of a negative feeling. ESPN (the TV sports network) regularly carries tournements.

I don't think it was so much the game as it was where it was played. Pool halls were not exactly places to bring your children - gambling, drinking, etc.

Thomas Barlow, the "Me" of "Me and Brownie" testified for the defense at the trial (p1445):

CROSS-EXAMINATION.
Q. (By Mr. Knowlton.) What do you do, Mr. Barlow, for a business?
A. Work for Mr. Shannon, pool room.
Q. Where is Mr. Shannon's pool room?
A. Corner of Pleasant and Second Streets.
Q. What do you do in Mr. Shannon's pool room?
A. Clean up around there and set the balls up.
Q. And what times of the day are you employed at Mr. Shannon's pool room?
A. I wasn't working then.
Q. What were you doing then?
A. I wasn't doing anything then.
Q. When did you begin to work in this pool room?
A. I have been working there now about a month."

This testimony is totally irrelative to the case but I think Knowlton was trying to discredit Barlow by calling attention to his connection with a pool hall. Barlow, 16 at the time, was arrested 4 months later (October 1893) for breaking into stores.

If the story of Lizzie having a pool room is true, I would think it was for the benefit of the servants. Audrey makes a good point about the room size and probably the cellar was perfect for it. A lot of people today have a portion of their cellar converted into a playroom or den.

I would think that if Lizzie needed privacy for any reason while at Maplecroft, that any room with a door, perhaps a locking door even, would suffice.


Tracy...

Webster's International Dictionary (1891) provides the following:
SHARK: A rapacious artful person; a sharper.
SHARP: To play tricks in bargaining; to act the sharper.

Cassell's Dictionary of Slang says pretty much the same thing.

I could not find a definition for "Pool Sharp" - but an updated American Heritage Dictionary has a definition for "Pool Shark."

I could continue checking and would no doubt would come up with a definition for "pool sharp," but these darn dictionaries are so heavy I can't toss them around any more.

That "Worcester County" story all came about when Agnes de Mille put the following in her book: "A Dance of Death"

"The New England novelist, Esther Forbes, tells us that her father, William Trowbridge, Judge of the Probate Court in Worcester County, had a curious case at the turn of the century, of a man divorcing his wife on charges of lesbianism. The co-respondent named in the proceeding was Miss Lizbeth A. Borden, of Fall River. Judge Forbes dismissied the charges as frivolous, but the incident did point up the extreme vulnerability and notoriety in which Lizzie conitinued to exist"

Try as I might I could find no support for any part of the above statement. Until someone can convince me otherwise, I think the whole story was a sham perpetrated on poor Agnes.

william @ Thu Jul 20, 2006 1:22 pm wrote:That "Worcester County" story all came about when Agnes de Mille put the following in her book: "A Dance of Death"

"The New England novelist, Esther Forbes, tells us that her father, William Trowbridge, Judge of the Probate Court in Worcester County, had a curious case at the turn of the century, of a man divorcing his wife on charges of lesbianism. The co-respondent named in the proceeding was Miss Lizbeth A. Borden, of Fall River. Judge Forbes dismissied the charges as frivolous, but the incident did point up the extreme vulnerability and notoriety in which Lizzie conitinued to exist"

Try as I might I could find no support for any part of the above statement. Until someone can convince me otherwise, I think the whole story was a sham perpetrated on poor Agnes.

William, with all due respect I did make it clear that it was a rumor. I never posted it as a fact. Pray tell, why is it when I post a rumor or speculation about something dealing with rumors about Lizzie being a lesbian you feel you just have to clear things up and yet, when Kat posts about Lizzie and the coachmen or some other guys you say nothing? Are you going to point out to Kat that you found nothing about guys going up to Maplecroft to play pool? Do rumors bother you or only certain ones?

william @ Thu Jul 20, 2006 1:07 pm wrote:Webster's International Dictionary (1891) provides the following:
SHARK: A rapacious artful person; a sharper.
SHARP: To play tricks in bargaining; to act the sharper.

Cassell's Dictionary of Slang says pretty much the same thing.

I could not find a definition for "Pool Sharp" - but an updated American Heritage Dictionary has a definition for "Pool Shark."

I could continue checking and would no doubt would come up with a definition for "pool sharp," but these darn dictionaries are so heavy I can't toss them around any more.

The definition of a 'sharp' is a person who "just falls within the letter of the law". Who can cheat and not be found out.
Since such a term might constitute libel or slander, the "shark" word was used (sounds like). IMO

william @ Thu Jul 20, 2006 1:22 pm wrote:That "Worcester County" story all came about when Agnes de Mille put the following in her book: "A Dance of Death"

"The New England novelist, Esther Forbes, tells us that her father, William Trowbridge, Judge of the Probate Court in Worcester County, had a curious case at the turn of the century, of a man divorcing his wife on charges of lesbianism. The co-respondent named in the proceeding was Miss Lizbeth A. Borden, of Fall River. Judge Forbes dismissied the charges as frivolous, but the incident did point up the extreme vulnerability and notoriety in which Lizzie conitinued to exist"

Try as I might I could find no support for any part of the above statement. Until someone can convince me otherwise, I think the whole story was a sham perpetrated on poor Agnes.

Yes, it sounds like another "legend of Lizzie" unless they can name a date, time and place (preferably in a legal document).
Are charges in a divorce suit always true? (Your own experience.)

DWilly @ Thu Jul 20, 2006 12:53 pm wrote:

william @ Thu Jul 20, 2006 1:22 pm wrote:That "Worcester County" story all came about when Agnes de Mille put the following in her book: "A Dance of Death"

"The New England novelist, Esther Forbes, tells us that her father, William Trowbridge, Judge of the Probate Court in Worcester County, had a curious case at the turn of the century, of a man divorcing his wife on charges of lesbianism. The co-respondent named in the proceeding was Miss Lizbeth A. Borden, of Fall River. Judge Forbes dismissied the charges as frivolous, but the incident did point up the extreme vulnerability and notoriety in which Lizzie conitinued to exist"

Try as I might I could find no support for any part of the above statement. Until someone can convince me otherwise, I think the whole story was a sham perpetrated on poor Agnes.

William, with all due respect I did make it clear that it was a rumor. I never posted it as a fact. Pray tell, why is it when I post a rumor or speculation about something dealing with rumors about Lizzie being a lesbian you feel you just have to clear things up and yet, when Kat posts about Lizzie and the coachmen or some other guys you say nothing? Are you going to point out to Kat that you found nothing about guys going up to Maplecroft to play pool? Do rumors bother you or only certain ones?

As far as I am concerned ... For me-- because Kat doesn't seem hell bent on shoving her opinions of Lizzie's sexuality on us with each post.

DWilly @ Thu Jul 20, 2006 1:53 pm wrote:...
William, with all due respect I did make it clear that it was a rumor. I never posted it as a fact. Pray tell, why is it when I post a rumor or speculation about something dealing with rumors about Lizzie being a lesbian you feel you just have to clear things up and yet, when Kat posts about Lizzie and the coachmen or some other guys you say nothing? Are you going to point out to Kat that you found nothing about guys going up to Maplecroft to play pool? Do rumors bother you or only certain ones?

In my opinion, some of the posters are more equal in knowledge and experience, while others may just have an axe to grind (no pun).
Your comments are welcome, of course. Best to cite some published work for background. Certain authors are less equal than others for sources.

Just my personal opinion, but I doubt very much that Lizzie had a pool table.

These tables were big carved wood and stone affairs, elabarotely done, not easy to move, someone would have mentioned it somewhere if it did exist; and I don't mean Spiering. When it came to the truth Spiering is basically a fabricator.


And, I believe I heard the following from someone on this site, that being: When Spiering was doing his reasearch for his book he approached a well known antiquarian book dealer in N.J. who told Spiering that there were several of Porter's books floating around, but when he wrote his book Spiering still insisted on stating that only 3 existed. When Spiering's book came out even I knew that at the time. Sensationalist.

That is why in doing research it is vital to go back to the earliest appearance of informaiton. Where did Spiering come up with this "POOL PALACE?

The basements of most big homes in Fall River were used for little else than for storage and laundry. Many were divided into little rooms, for the boiler, coal storage, etc. From what I witinessed in many of these buildings when they were build, little else was done with the basements. I find it very doubtful that Lizzie had a pool room in the basement.

Audrey @ Thu Jul 20, 2006 2:21 pm wrote:

DWilly @ Thu Jul 20, 2006 12:53 pm wrote:

william @ Thu Jul 20, 2006 1:22 pm wrote:That "Worcester County" story all came about when Agnes de Mille put the following in her book: "A Dance of Death"

"The New England novelist, Esther Forbes, tells us that her father, William Trowbridge, Judge of the Probate Court in Worcester County, had a curious case at the turn of the century, of a man divorcing his wife on charges of lesbianism. The co-respondent named in the proceeding was Miss Lizbeth A. Borden, of Fall River. Judge Forbes dismissied the charges as frivolous, but the incident did point up the extreme vulnerability and notoriety in which Lizzie conitinued to exist"

Try as I might I could find no support for any part of the above statement. Until someone can convince me otherwise, I think the whole story was a sham perpetrated on poor Agnes.

William, with all due respect I did make it clear that it was a rumor. I never posted it as a fact. Pray tell, why is it when I post a rumor or speculation about something dealing with rumors about Lizzie being a lesbian you feel you just have to clear things up and yet, when Kat posts about Lizzie and the coachmen or some other guys you say nothing? Are you going to point out to Kat that you found nothing about guys going up to Maplecroft to play pool? Do rumors bother you or only certain ones?

As far as I am concerned ... For me-- because Kat doesn't seem hell bent on shoving her opinions of Lizzie's sexuality on us with each post.

Sometimes it's easy to come away with the wrong idea of what posters are doing. Sometimes I think some posters are trying to "shove" opinions. I just make my little posts and I'm pretty good about making it clear that it's either speculation, rumor or just my opinion. In this thread I posted maybe the billiard table was for the servants or maybe the author was wrong. There were other things I put in the post. Btw, did you read my posts about Lizzie and Dr. Bowen? Like I said, sometimes things just seem a certain way to us. I post about many things. Did you read my post about the Mayflower book?

I think the queston about Lizzie's sexual habit should be broken into two time periods. From birth to 1900, and then afterwards.
As far as I know, there was no proof available before she turned 40.

Afterwards she may have been looking for friendship wherever she could find it. Would a "respectable" couple or family have associated with anyone with that reputation? Look at the attitude to the 'not guilty' OJ today. Common law says you are considered innocent until proven guilty. One association with a money-hungry adventuress isn't enough for me, no matter what any can claim afterwards.

You are free to post any facts to the contrary.

I think there is about an equal amount of *boyfriend* material to draw upon as *girlfriend* when it comes to Lizzie.
Personally I don't care, as long as it doesn't affect the case- the killings.
I admit I feel like throwing more boyfriends in now that I've noticed a real soft spot.
I never thought William was puhing anything in that direction, and even if he was, I'd listen gratefully and respectfully because he is a grand man and we are lucky to have him! Also, when I claimed a pool table as a *babe magnate* I hoped that would be construed as either sex.

As for pool tables and *pool halls* my uncle actually spent time in those in Fall River during his young Navy years. He did not want to admit to me that he did hang out there- so I think he was referring to the other activities that might be related to a pool hall. But he was a great pool shooter as was I.
The stigma of a pool hall atmosphere leads me to believe that it would not be something our Miss Lizbeth would countenance, if she felt like a society lady or wished to be perceived as such.

The basements of most big homes in Fall River were used for little else than for storage and laundry. Many were divided into little rooms, for the boiler, coal storage, etc. From what I witinessed in many of these buildings when they were build, little else was done with the basements.

Yes, exactly! I grew up in a very old new england home, and that's exactly how our basement (and all my friends/relatives basements) were. Using basements for recreation is a fairly modern concept.