Lizzie Borden Society Forum

I had heard Stefani during one of her lectures in FR pronounce 'Nance O'Neill's' first name as 'Nancy'.

When I've read Lizzie stuff, I would read her name with the 'e' silent.

How do we know 'Nancy' is the correct pronounciation?

how do we know Stefani's pronunciation is not correct?

According to theatrical historian Miles Kreuger (you may know him as the fellow who knows more about SHOW BOAT than any man alive), the actress may have spelled it "Nance," but she pronounced it "Nancy."

Better than my sister Nancy, who spelled her nick-name "Nanc" and pronounced it "Nance," no?

My name is Jeff, but the second "f" is silent.

That's deep!

Its a Secret Society
The last letter of our names is Silent

Matt

I am an artist formerly known as "Scott".

Some time ago I did a story on Nance's place in Tyngsborough. The newspapers were very specific about the sounded "E." (Until then I always rhymed her with "pants"--still do unless I remind myself.) She named herself after an actress she admired, so the pronunciation and spelling probably came from the same source. No time to dig up sources; I'm going to Fall River tomorrow!

--Lyddie

Thanks, guys! I hadn't heard those stories before. I thought Stefani was correct but did not know how she knew it.

Hope you have a GREAT time in Fall River, Lyddie!

Bob Gutowski @ Tue Aug 08, 2006 10:10 am wrote:According to theatrical historian Miles Kreuger (you may know him as the fellow who knows more about SHOW BOAT than any man alive), the actress may have spelled it "Nance," but she pronounced it "Nancy."

Interesting! Like Bette Davis.

Factoid of the day: Bette Midler, who doesn't sound the second E, was named after Bette Davis, who did.

Lynn

Yooper @ Tue Aug 08, 2006 11:38 am wrote:My name is Jeff, but the second "f" is silent.

The first N in Lynn is silent. You have to pronounce the second N or clowns will visit you while you sleep.

Lynn

"Can you hear the clowns screaming, Clarice? Clarice? Wake up, Clarice!"

Our mom called her "Betdavis"- I don't know why. Maybe she was talking fast?

Poor old Nance is forgotten out in Glendale California. The lady at the Forest Park cemetery kindly looked up her data and all there was is that her ashes were deposited on March 8, 1965 in the Columbarium of the Sanctuaries, niche # 10022. Nobody there knew who she was, nor was there any info on her file card. Although she died at the actor's home in Englewood NJ, it really appears that her ashes went home to California after all. This is the most comprehensive filmograph I have seen for he:
http://www.imdb.com/name/nm0642042/
and her Broadway credits here:
http://www.ibdb.com/person.asp?id=68459

Hello Shelley,

Nance O'Neil passed away on February 7, 1965. You indicated her ashes were placed in a Columbarium in Forest Lawn Memorial Park, Glendale California, on March 8, 1965, approximately one month later

The Find A Grave site had erroneously listed her burial site as Brookside Cemetery in Englewood, New Jersey. They have now corrected this information and are presently showing Forest Lawn Memorial Park.

What they do not provide is the information you have given us - that her ashes are now reposing in a Columbarium in Memorial Park in niche 10022.

Are you aware the ashes of Nance's husband, Alfred Scott Deveraux Hickman, are in the same niche? One might say they are together again after a long absence encompassing some thirty-four years. I have copies of photographs showing the niche, and also a bronze plate bearing Hickman's name. There is nothing about Nance.

A complete filmography for Nance O'Neil is contained in The Hatchet for April/May 2004, Vol. 1, Issue 2.

Thanks William. Yes, I saw that on Find a Grave- which is why I caled Glendale to check. The name on the niche in the Columbarium of the Sanctuaries is spelled O'Neill- two l's -I asked the gal in the office twice. One of our Borden House managers, Dee, is an enthusiastic Nance collector so I wanted to find out for her. I will probably never go to California to see it, but maybe someone will take a photo. Too bad they know nothing about her- no info on the card at all. I asked if they wanted some information and they said to send something.

Some time ago I had contacted the management at the Actor's Home in an effort to determine Nance's whereabouts. They said they had no information in their files about her burial - which seemed strange to me.

I wonder who arranged for the transportatiion of Nance's ashes to California? Perhaps she had these instructions in her will - OR - maybe it was the doing of a West Coast relative? I guess we'll never know.

How much would it cost to hire someone to go to California and take a picture? Perhaps someday we will have a member who resides close by the Columbarium and we can take advantage of his/her photographic abilities (and good nature).

Tell your friend if she wants to chat about Nance, I am here for her.
She is one of my major interests.

William- the cemetery is emailing me a photo of Nance's niche today. There is no vase for a flower, but I think we can arrange a rose. I will post it as soon as it comes over. Maybe we can get up a little fan club for Nance! There is no record as to who paid the arrangements bill. Often the film studio will pick up the tab.

p.s. Maude Adams is my Victorian actress obsession.

Shelley, thank you for this find! I have been trying to find out where Nance O'Neil(l) ended up, too. I contacted the cemetery in New Jersey and they said 'not here'. I told Bill, and others, that that post on Find-a-Grave was a bunch of crap. The guy just put up a photo of the cemetery name and assumed she was there. I looked at that contributor's picture, and it was this fat guy sitting in a cushy chair eatin' potato chips. I thought 'this guy isn't gonna go running around doing actual research...' This is how history - and Lizzie legends - get screwed up.

I contacted the NJ Actors' Home too and they had no record of her even being there at all. I still wonder if they have something on her in their archives. She was there till 1965 - it wasn't like it was 1890.

I contacted the city clerk and board of health and I don't know who else out there and they all said 'not here'.

I did write to Forest Lawn because her husband was buried out there. I felt that's where she was. They never answered my letter.

So you called and voila! Well, I'm so happy you got results! At last! We finally know where Nance is! And they are going to send a picture!! Wow! You really hit the jackpot! Congratulations on your find - and thanks for sharing!

Aw. shucks- tain't no fun if you can't share it with folks! I bugged 'em again Thursday about the photo they promised. Seems as if the "Communications" gal is on vacation till the end of the week- but fear not- we shall prevail! I thought maybe her file card would have info on who paid for the ashes to be shipped and interred-nothing. If she was in the Actor's home , poor old gal must have been having some hard times. Oftern the studio would spring for the funeral expenses. I did ask if we might not send a rose from "The Lizzies" and the guy said there were no vases but a florist could put up one of those little suction cup thingies for a bud. I did a stint as a research librarian for about 2 years and I do so love a difficult chase and can never wait for a letter. Thank goodness for 1-800 numbers!

Well, our nice lady who promised the photo of Nance's niche is on vacation and her big mean ole boss says it is policy NOT to photograph the Dearly Departed, monument owners, blah blah......I layered on as much charm as I could muster and he thawed somewhat into saying he would send a photo of the columbarium from the outside. I informed him O'Neil was spelled wrong on the niche and he said he would look into that. So I made up a juicy folder of wonderful stuff on Nance for their file-nobody had a clue who she was. I told him she would probably be deleriously happy to be remembered as she was an ACTRESS.

In any event, one must be grateful for crumbs. Nance's birthday is coming up in about 5 weeks and the florist on the grounds can deliver a rosebud for the niche-I can ask them about what it looks like! In the meantime, while looking for something else, I found this and here is a sweet b/w gelatine photo of Nance and some pets. Since it is for studious "critique" and not for profit, I can post it.

Shelley @ Tue Aug 29, 2006 12:18 pm wrote: In the meantime, while looking for something else, I found this and here is a sweet b/w gelatine photo of Nance and some pets. Since it is for studious "critique" and not for profit, I can post it.

I don't understand this last part. Does this mean I should not have previously posted the photo here?

viewtopic.php?t=823&highlight=nance++neil

The library in Victoria Australia has posted conditions for reproducing this image. As it is a postcard, circa 1906, the photographer is dead, etc. technically I do not think there is any way they would be able to scream copyright infringement.

This publicity postcard is in a collection of personal correspondence of an Australian lady and no doubt more were sold or sent to many other people. The library asks that it not be reproduced except for critique. They like to control the quality for written publications and make some money is what it boils down to in the end. I have removed mine to save bandwidth since it is already on the site. I looked in the Nance O'Neil gallery and did not see it, so I thought it was something fresh and interesting. It is from about the time we are interested in Lizzie and Nance.
Nothing less interesting than- stale news.

I've heard of people being granted permission from the Australian contact. They basically gave carte blanche on the pre-1923 pictures I think, but don't hold me to that.
If anyone has more info- will they post it?

Nance for sale on ebay, photographer unknown.

Nance was on AMC at 4 today in the 1931 Transgression with Kay Francis. I had never heard her speak before - what a hypnotizing, rich contralto! She played the domineering spinster sister, Honora Maury, of Kay's husband. Nance stole the show. Kay's performance was hammy and ridiculously stage-y, lots of posturing and posing and gazing off into space. Not all stage actresses could make it in films- such a different discipline. But old Nance was superb and very natural-what a voice! She dwarfed the rest of the cast in ability- and was also a pretty tall gal too!

Are there any letters out there written between Nance and Lizzie?

I never heard of any -but boy would they be worth a bundle! I would bet Lizzie, as her health declined, destroyed personal correspondence.

I picked up this image of Nance in the play "The Lily" on Ebay this week. It is from Theatre magazine 1911. Nance plays the old maid sister. No wonder she gets labeled as a lesbian- she is so often featured as a rather masculine, man-less figure in some of these films and plays. Earlier photos of Nance are so much more frilly and feminine. I can do a higher -resolution scan when the photo arrives.

Nance O'Neil opened in "Lily" at the Stuyvesant Theater in New York City on December 23, 1909. It was written and produced by David Belasco and ran for 164 performances. Her husband to be, Alfred Hickman (they married in 1916), also had a role in the play.

Thanks! Do we know what the play was about? I did not get the whole magazine, only the torn out photo.

Shelley,

I'll mail you a couple of reviews tomorrow - is the Second Street address okay?

Lest I forget: MANY HAPPY RETURNS!

Thanks- yes, just send it to Lizzie's house. She keeps the mail for me until the weekends! Of course there IS that note which came for Abby that somehow got lost . . . . .

Some of Nance's Quotable Quotes:

"An actress must be a woman whose emotional perceptions are true, and to make then so, she must have a fine contempt for any art or thought that betrays them for something false."

"Actresses require protection in their art from blind abuse, from savage criticism. Their work is their religion, if they are seeking the best in their art, and to abuse that faith is to rob them- to dishonor them."

"Tradition has made women cowardly."