Lizzie Borden Society Forum

Last year I got a chance to visit the Borden House. While seeing the guest room my guide speculated that Abby may have been murdered while kneeling at the end of the bed while she tucked in a sheet. At first I agreed with her. It would explain why no loud thud was heard when Abby fell over. Now however I have my doubts. Just recently I was looking at some pictures over on the Fall River Historical Society site and I looked closely at one photo that gave a little bit wider view of the back of the bed with Abby laying dead next to it. Looking at the wider view, at least to me, you can clearly see that tip of Abby's shoe is at least one foot past the bed and if she stood up she would be almost two feet from the back of the bed. Now I think it is possible that Abby was standing up in the room maybe even facing her murderer. Maybe even speaking to them or arguing. I am not great on the picture thing but I will try to post the picture I am talking about. If you do not see the pic here is the link:

http://www.lizzieborden.org/bordenphotos.htm

Its quite likely that the noise from the traffic outside could have muffled the noise. Second Street was a busy street?
Some speculations to kick around.
I wonder if the Intruder had ducked down behind the bed to hide from anyone who looked inside? An open door could imply an empty room? That could explain why Abby was close to the window & wall, and would be surprised to find someone there.

Maybe the reason that noone heard a thud was because the people in the house knew what was going on. If Lizzie committed the murder of Abby she would be in the room with her, and if Bridget was outside cleaning windows in the back part of the house she might not have heard a sound. Or she was in on it too and knew Lizzie was killing her stepmother.

Yes Dwilly- Bowen said he saw her from the doorway. I think he saw her feet sticking out.
Remember, there was a chair there between the bureau and the window. Some people think Abby was near the window.
There was also a camp chair there at her head.
And yes she was first hit while facing her attacker- at least the experts there at the time determined just that.
They think the face wound-the *flap wound* of her scalp area near her ear- was achieved by a glancing blow to the face.

That would mean both victims were first sliced in the face.

I was wondering recently - since I think Abby was moved- that at least her skirt was straightened. Then I thought who might have done that before Bown got there? Ah Bridget! Mrs. Churchill did not go in the room, but Bridget did...she went around the bed and looked. That means she was alone with Abby's bdy. We have not discussed that possibility before.

In experiments we have done at the house, you can be in the kitchen and not hear a 200 pound body hit the floor in the guestroom. Remember, the kitchen to sitting room door was closed, the sitting room to foyer door was closed and the parlor doors were closed. You can hear a thud if you are in the sitting room with the foyer door open.

Knowing Abby's height of 5 feet 3 inches and that her head ends up right at the middle knob of the dresser, she must have been standing just a little behind the end of the bed when she fell. How do we know she was moved? In the autopsy report it states Abby has 3 contusions, not lacerations on her forehead, one oval running lengthwise and on the bridge of her nose indicating she must have fallen on her face- face down with some force. Dolan goes on to say "there are 18 distinct wounds on the head, all but 4 on the right ." The 19th is "an incised wound over the spine and 4 inches below the junction of body with neck and extended upward and outward to the left. 2 1/2 inches in length and 2 1/2 inches in depth." "There were no marks on front of body"

Abby was clearly not afraid of whoever came in the room. Not only could she see and hear them plainly coming up the front stairs, the lack of any defense wounds on her arms, or any markings on the smoothly-made up bed suggest she never made any attempt to flee out over the bed out of the only available exit. The killer must have been behind her, with Abby's back turned to him or her.

One sequence which works very nicely is for the murderer to be chatting to the victim, go to the window and close the shutter, then wheel around and attack from behind. Who would Abby not be surprised to see-? Morse, Bridget, Andrew, or- Lizzie.

Also, about Andrew, Dolan says all wounds were parallell to each other and names by length 10.

Here is the info on the flap wound and the fact that it was made while facing the attacker.
Right after this first part, page 103, the facial contusions are stated and when asked if they might have been made by falling down, Dolan answered yes.
It's in the Preliminary Hearing and not everyone has that:

Prelim
Dr. Dolan
103
A. Yes Sir. I should say also, on the left side, without any mark on the skull, was a flat scalp wound, a wound about one and a half inches wide, and two to three inches long, flapped backwards immediately over the left ear.
------
Q. What of these wounds on the head, in your opinion, if any of them, were given while the person were standing up?
A. I would say the glancing scalp wound, which I spoke of, on the left side, that did not mark the skull; that flap drew right back.
Q. Now you tell us of a glancing scalp wound on the left side of the head over the left ear?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. You think that wound might have been given under what circumstances?
A. While standing up, and facing.
Q. That was not necessarily fatal?
A. No Sir.
Q. What were the dimensions of that wound?
A. I think one and a half by two inches.
Q. An inch and a half wide, and two inches running from front to back?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. Did it cut the flesh entirely off?
A. No Sir.
Q. If there was any supporting hinge, where was that?
A. At the rear.
Q. Exactly in the back, or toward the bottom?
A. More towards the bottom; I think it was about medium. I would not say positively whether it was towards the bottom or above; I think about the middle.
Q. Was this hinge practically the entire width of the wound?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. So the flesh would fly back, like that?
A. Yes Sir, a flapping wound.

Page 145

Q. Now you are describing, in answer to my question, the wounds that she might have received when standing up; is there any other wound that you think of?
A. I do not think so, sir.
Q. In your opinion were all the other wounds given when the person was lying down, prone on the floor? Could they be?
A. Yes Sir, they could be.
Q. In your opinion, from what you saw, were they so given?
A. Yes Sir.

--as for who says Abby was moved, I do think she was somewhat- it's just my opinion, but the testimony points to at least the arms being moved.
How much I may think she was moved might be that much at least. I've usually thought Abby's skirt was fixed to give her some modesty.

Hmm- amazing. I have just tested this out on an apple. If I am facing my victim, and am right-handed, I would indeed make a slice over the left ear with a "hinge" at the back holding the "slice" on. It does seem an odd place, though for a frontal attack. I should have gone right for the front of the forehead ! Now the house will have to rewrite the tour. Perhaps this explains why one of the policemen wanted to photo Abby's eyes- a la Ripper case- all nonsense of course about that. Well, well, well.

Do you have access to the preliminary hearing?
It's a really good document.

Abby was probably moving at the last second maybe to get a glancing blow? An apple wouldn't. I agree about a first blow aiming for the forehead- right between the eyes!
I think it is great that you are testing things out. Good for you!

Heres a creepy thought. I posted a link to an eBay sale recently for an old newspaper ad for Borden and Almy undertaking. One of the services that was listed that they covered was providing camp chairs for the services. That camp chair that was located at Abby's head could have been a leftover chair from Andrew's undertaker days.

I think that is very likely and I picture Morse sitting there and taking his shoes off Wednesday night.

"An apple wouldn't" - For some reason nobody in the family would act as guinea pig for me. Mostly I wanted to see this hinge thing. Yes, with the hinge in the back, the blow had to be from the side or front. The hinge falls in the front with only with a blow from the back. Maybe one of the guests next week will volunteer! I awoke this morning picturing it all and feeling sad for Abby (my favorite). I was always praying she never knew what hit her.

There's a lot to be said for re-creating these important vignettes. Details emerge.

Has everyone been overlooking an important clue in that photo?
Are those the kind of shoes Abby would put on when she left the house?
Don't many ladies wear slippers or something just for use in the house? If so, that would suggest Abby intended to leave the house for that "sick friend".

Of course, current practice might not be in use in those days. But we do know there was a difference in a house dress and one worn for going outside. Or is somebody going to try another put-down?

I'll jump in with both feet and state that I believe we can't rely on the crime scene pix to give us any real info about positioning during the attacks, due to the manipulation of the corpses before the photgrapher showed up.

The tour I took on August 4th had "Mrs. Kelly's girl" telling us the first blow was in the middle of Abby's forehead! I just kept my mouth shut, but I was loudly thinking "Nope."

HI Bob! I had a little chat with that gal about her tour. Inasmuch as I had to be "dead" on the floor all day in front of guests- there was not a chance to pop up and say no no no!

Abby's cotton calico dress suggests a house dress. Her shoes even look like different shoes on each foot don't they? They seem to be ladies' congress boot slip -ons. Like Andrew's. She may have, due to her weight, had bad feet and might have worn such shoes as a rule. She may also have not been a fashion-conscious person. She was still wearing bonnet and shawl out in town, which is a little Civil War-ish style.

I heard the photos of her flat on the floor were taken with the bed pushed aside and were taken before the one of her after she was lifted up and redeposited where she has her fanny up in the air.
I'll tell you, lifting a dead 200 pound plus body is no easy matter. I was imagining the men carrying her down the steps! I also need to refresh my memory about rigor mortis and when the stiffening effects wear off. Two funeral directors looked at the photo of fannyup Abby and said rigor had surely passed off.

Does anyone else notice the same ghostly figure in the upper right hand corner of the photo that is present in the upper right hand corner of the Andrew Borden photo? Perhaps it's the same man who was present at the taking of both photographs.

That is one of the police officers I think- someone told me his name and I am digging around for it- senior moment.

What's strange about the presence of that man in the Abby photograph is that he seems like he is sitting down. His head doesn't clear the top of the bed.

Speaking of the wounds...what we have discussed in past threads, is the possibility that the attacker whacks Abby from the front...she falls to the floor face down. With the limited space between the dressing table and the bed, the attacker goes back around to the other side of the bed to go after Abby's head from a prone/perpendicular position on the bed. Although this position would probably limit the use of the two-handed method, it could lend to the 'use the right hand first, then switch to the left...or vice versa ?





Tracy...

Actually I did try that and found it difficult (but not impossible)to lie across the bed, bend over the side and administer any chops with determined frenzy without losing my balance. Two- handed did not work at all. Women, bless 'em, tend to have two rather prominent weights attached which renders us rather top and front heavy whilst hanging in space. The situation is a little easier if you lean on the left arm. propped up on your side, while the right hand bends down to do the chopping.

Also the direction of the wounds on the head, and the spatter pattern of blood on the walls front and back of the body and ceiling would show from which direction the blows were administered. The police were savvy enough to note those things back then. The bed also seemed undisturbed as far as the pillows and coverlet.

So I guess even if the attacker shifted around and was parallel or lengthwise on the bed...that probably wouldn't have worked either.





TRacy...

I must confess I only tried crosswise. Well, let's try it out tonight when we go to bed. (My husband has crept off to another room years ago- I don't blame him).

Hmmm- parallelling Abby on the bed works somewhat if you are left handed- not very well at all if you are right handed because one must reach over the left side and cross to chop.. If you lie parallel to Abby but head towards the foot of the bed, your hands end up more towards her rear end. This is the most exercise I have gotten all day!

Thanks Shelley ! You are such a good sport !





Tracy...

Aw shucks- where can a gal find such exciting things to do at 1 a.m. on a Monday night? Anything in the cause of finding a good clue. I am convinced the answer to any mystery lies in the careful reconstruction of the event with all the details examined from every possible angle. Remember the motto of Rudyard Kipling's famous mongoose, Rikki Tikki Tavi? Go Find Out!

Tracy and I were very lonely proponents of a possible attack from over the bed. In its favor we thought were:
Less blood on the attacker because they'd be shielded by lying on the bed.
No blood on the shoes or feet so could walk away without leaving a blood trail.

BTW:The police did search the bed before the photo was taken, moving the spread, pillows. They put it back together again for when the photographer came. If anyone wants testimony, please ask or check me.
Also: there was no blood identified on the ceiling in the guest room and no one knows who the *invisible man* was in either photo- only guesses- don't go to any trouble looking. Save your time for *our* experiments!

Here is the sequence of when the photos were taken:

http://www.lizzieandrewborden.com/Crime ... ceList.htm

"Preliminary Hearing, pg. 196, Dr. Dolan specifies the photographs that were taken of the crime scenes, and describes the order in which they were taken:

#1 pic=Abby slightly moved
#2 pic=Abby with bed removed (side shot)
#3 pic= Abby with bed put back again
#4 pic= Abby downstairs
#5 pic=Andrew unmoved"

Boy, that picture is so disturbing. Poor thing.
You're right--one shoe looks different from the other.
I think it's a possibility that the first blow occurred while she was facing the attacker, then she may have spun around and tried to hit the floor and cover her head to protect herself. Hence the weird position. Maybe she lost consciousness before she was able to cover her head with her arms. Were there any cuts on her arms or hands?

Shelley @ Tue Sep 12, 2006 12:19 am wrote:Actually I did try that and found it difficult (but not impossible)to lie across the bed, bend over the side and administer any chops with determined frenzy without losing my balance. Two- handed did not work at all. Women, bless 'em, tend to have two rather prominent weights attached which renders us rather top and front heavy whilst hanging in space. The situation is a little easier if you lean on the left arm. propped up on your side, while the right hand bends down to do the chopping.

Also the direction of the wounds on the head, and the spatter pattern of blood on the walls front and back of the body and ceiling would show from which direction the blows were administered. The police were savvy enough to note those things back then. The bed also seemed undisturbed as far as the pillows and coverlet.

I remember the Trial Testimony from (ME Dolan?) that the attacker would be covered with blood spots from the waist down for Abby, from the waist up for Andy.
Did anyone who was there at the time question the position of the attacker? I thought that was settled 113 years ago?

Angel @ Tue Sep 12, 2006 8:00 am wrote:Boy, that picture is so disturbing. Poor thing.
You're right--one shoe looks different from the other.
I think it's a possibility that the first blow occurred while she was facing the attacker, then she may have spun around and tried to hit the floor and cover her head to protect herself. Hence the weird position. Maybe she lost consciousness before she was able to cover her head with her arms. Were there any cuts on her arms or hands?

I believe that a wide-angle lens was used, and the position of the shoe closer to the lens would appear larger. This is well-known to photographers. A long lens tends to compress perspective.
PS
But if Abby had her shoes custom-made (usual before mass-produced shoes) its possible that the shoes are indeed different-sized. For bunions and corns, etc.

Good point about the bunions and corns. Very heavy people do develop foot issues, spreading soles, fallen arches, corns and the like. So maybe that explains that shoe business.

Okay, tonight, armchair detectives- just try lying face down on your bed and reaching over the edge with your right hand and try to get some power behind a hatchet hand- 18 times perhaps. You'll see how difficult it is. Even partially raised up on your left arm -there is an awkward angle. Even bending down straddling the body has its own problems, but at least the hatchet hand is very free to swing single or double-handed. People with good backs and strong knees will have less trouble than we old coggers.

Also imagine yourself in a fit of frenzied swinging- then pausing, going around the foot of the bed, lying down and continuing the attack after the initial knocking down of the victim.

I believe in keeping murder simple (motive, weapon and opportunity and method) and the solving of murder quite often comes down to common sense, a knowledge of human behavior and a good imagination with a healthy dose of practicality, re-creation of the circumstances, and attention to details.

Actions, especially when they go against the habitual known behavior of an individual can be very revealing.

I believe in keeping murder simple (motive, weapon and opportunity and method) and the solving of murder quite often comes down to common sense, a knowledge of human behavior and a good imagination with a healthy dose of practicality, re-creation of the circumstances, and attention to details.

Actions, especially when they go against the habitual known behavior of an individual can be very revealing.

That is very good advice. IMO
BTW some months ago I opined that Andy was struck sitting up and fell towards his right. I suggested anyone try to relax laying down but keeping their feet on the floor. Some wondered if his hernia made that comfortable, I don't know.
Measuring the blood spatter could indicate sitting up if the spatter was from the middle of the sofa and continued to the right of the victim (your left as looking to the sofa).

I did try to kill Abby from over the bed. I have a bedroom set up nearly like the Borden guestroom, in its' bed placement and bureau.

I started my attack from the bed and continued from there, just changing position to lying down.

I didn't attack from the window area first. My whole attack was from the bed.

I had bought Stef a real hatchet (antique) and used that before I gave it to her. I think that was 2 years ago.

Kat @ Tue Sep 12, 2006 1:31 am wrote:Tracy and I were very lonely proponents of a possible attack from over the bed. In its favor we thought were:
Less blood on the attacker because they'd be shielded by lying on the bed.
No blood on the shoes or feet so could walk away without leaving a blood trail.

BTW:The police did search the bed before the photo was taken, moving the spread, pillows. They put it back together again for when the photographer came. If anyone wants testimony, please ask or check me.
Also: there was no blood identified on the ceiling in the guest room and no one knows who the *invisible man* was in either photo- only guesses- don't go to any trouble looking. Save your time for *our* experiments!

Here is the sequence of when the photos were taken:

http://www.lizzieandrewborden.com/Crime ... ceList.htm

"Preliminary Hearing, pg. 196, Dr. Dolan specifies the photographs that were taken of the crime scenes, and describes the order in which they were taken:

#1 pic=Abby slightly moved
#2 pic=Abby with bed removed (side shot)
#3 pic= Abby with bed put back again
#4 pic= Abby downstairs
#5 pic=Andrew unmoved"

I see your point about the bed preventing blood from hitting the killer or getting on their shoes. Wasn't there a hair piece that belonged to Abby found on the bed? Anyway, the only problem with the bed since you would be pretty much limited to one hand would not your arm get tired after nineteen wacks?

I just tried it. I came from across the bed...somewhere between perpendicular and parallel with the length of the bed. while I whacked with my right hand I propped myself up with my left arm underneath me...at (sorry) boob level. I leaned out over the edge just a bit....that helped.

I found I could swing from the far right in to the middle (Abby's head) in sort of a 'forehand' swing. But I felt more control and strength when I let my right arm cross over and swing from the left towards the middle...and vice versa when I swung with my left arm.

Now, I did not use an axe/hatchet...I used what I had immediately available, which was a 2 foot, 1/2 inch wooden dowel. I am going to try it with a hammer next....as that is the closest thing I have to something similar to the size/weight of a small axe/hatchet.





Tracy......

You go girl! Nothing like getting right in there and trying it out. Remember the bedspread which is still at the historical society is well -marked head, side, etc. so you know how it was on the bed. If a person were lying on the bed, would the coverlet show those spots -and the shams? Mostly I cannot believe lying on a bed is the way anyone would go about killing someone after knocking them out from a standing position. It is so ineffective and awkward, not to mention having to stop in the middle of your murder to assume a more comfortable position? From a common sense point of view, I have problems with this.

Am smiling at the thought of three women committing bedside murders today. Soon WE will be candidates for the Taunton Asylum.

My attempt wasn't today- it was way back when Tracy and I were talking about it.

The way I can picture it is (say) Lizzie kneeling on the bed near the edge and whacking Abby in the face. Abby sees and begins to turn away and gets the facial scalp area flap wound. As Abby falls, Lizzie drops down flatter to keep hitting. It's not to get more comfortable- it's to follow the target. The target is still moving and so the wounds show as every which way. When the target stops moving is probably about the time all the concentrated blows fell in the same place which caved in the skull over the right ear.
The hair could have flung backward onto the bed.

Anyway, if it was an attack with a hatchet, it is not a spontaneous attack anyway. It would be premeditated else why have a hatchet handy in the guestroom?
Lying on the bed covers the attackers whole body from blood spatter as long as the hatchet is not raised above the head level of the attacker lying down. They would need to roll up their sleeves tho.

I have always thought there was an argument that morning between Abby and Lizzie- Bridget may have heard some things but was sent outside to wash windows while these two women settled the matter. I know that no hatchet was upstairs. Lizzie had to have gone upstairs with that hatchet after Abby once she had decided to take the violent course of action. I don't think the hatchet part had been premeditated for days on end- or else Lizzie would have planned a much more careful and convincing alibi and method of murder.
.
A knife, cleaver , ax,blunt object are all sort of spontaneous types of attacks in my mind. One grabs what is to hand while in a rage and strikes out. I am trying to picture Lizzie thinking- well, tomorrow I think I will go get the hatchet at 9 and then go upstairs and bash Abby in the head 19 times. I would bet it was more of an argument, total rage and follow-through with what was handy. The woodstove in the kitchen may have had a hatchet nearby when Abby left the diningroom, or maybe the cellar. But I feel it was an immediate and uncontrolled reaction to stimuli originating from Abby.

Abby had to have heard Lizzie come up the stairs. She must have seen her shortly after she entered the room- no way not to. The hatchet could have been concealed in her skirts, or in that pile of laundry she admitted bringing up. It may have been her hand which closed that front shutter which would have brought her up behind Abby's back. This scenario works beautifully for a back attack. I think if Lizzie had knelt on the bed and struck Abby on the side of the ear from the front, Abby would have seen all of that coming and simply run around the foot of the bed and down the stairs.

I think this weekend we might do some filming of these comments for illustration.

Shelley @ Tue Sep 12, 2006 10:30 pm wrote: It is so ineffective and awkward

That bed sits up pretty high from floor level. That would be a pretty good reach to get to the target (Abby's head) from a laying position on the bed. I would also think it would be awkward since Abby was lying so close to the bed, and in such a small area. I can't see how the blows could have been delivered very effectively while also trying to keep ones balance. Especially the ones to cave in the skull. Not to mention that with the violent striking motion, for lack of a better way to put it, wouldn't it cause the bed to bounce up and down somewhat? I'm not certain how the mattresses were constructed at the time. I agree that if Lizzie was kneeling on the bed, it would've made it much easier for Abby to try to run away unless the first blow knocked her out or dazed her, and Abby would've left Lizzie scrambling to catch up with her on the bed. Lizzie was wearing a dress with a long skirt. I don't think it would've been easy to move about in a kneeling postion on the floor in that, let alone on the bed. Also to drop so quickly from a kneeling position to a lying position may have been difficult in a floor length dress.

I think by laying on a soft bed you would give up a great deal of leverage. Standing on a hard surface provides a stable base for that leverage.

It would also change the direction of the blows (and cuts) by 90 degrees. I don't believe the cuts reflect that.

Also the blood dripping from the hatchet would be thrown behind the attacker, across the bed and up towards the guest room door. No blood was found on that side of the room nor the ceiling above the bed. Some blood would also land on the back side of the attacker, probably from the waist down.

Good for you ladies in trying these experiments but if I see any of you with a hatchet in hand, I'm running like heck out of the room! Feet don't fail me now!

"It would also change the direction of the blows (and cuts) by 90 degrees. I don't believe the cuts reflect that. "

YES!

That is the point I have been laboring to make. Most have seen that shaved head photo of Abby (back view). If someone hung over the edge of the bed, the direction of the wounds would not be longitudinal with the body (head), as they clearly are. One would have to parallel the body , and if right -handed reach over the left side of one's body- a nearly impossible task.

Oh Harry- you are safe from frenzied ladies! Experimenting is the only way to truly eliminate various scenarios though, and I am all for that as it will advance the solution to the case. And each discovery narrows down the possibilities until one
is left with - The Truth.

Is the photo of the shaved head somewhere here on the site? We keep it in a cabinet at the house as it is very upsetting and sad for young tour visitors.
http://thechanceryhouse.com/abby_aut_wounds.jpg

It certainly doesn't have to be an attack across the bed.

But it is true that the bed was unmade then remade so the state of the bedding is no indication as to whether someone was on there or not.
I think the wounds that are sideways could come from the direction of the bed. And if one did not lift the hatchet high there would not be spatter on the back of the attacker or the ceiling.

I used short chopping motions. It took more chops to penetrate the skull, in my imagination because of the awkward angle.
Thanks for the picture link, Shell!

Anyway, it was just a notion. If it was truly viable, an expert at the time probably would have thought of it.