Lizzie Borden Society Forum

Reading thru Patrick H. Doherty summation testimony his say(from page 590)

"I saw Mrs. Bordens head was cut and hacked and was lying in a pool of blodd. The blood seemed hard, seemed as if it had been there for some time. I saw blood spots on the pillow shams and abunch of hair on the bed, black hair.... I think it was about on the middle of the bed, right on the spread. It appeared to be a piece of hair which had been on the spread. It was half as large as my fist I should think.... I left it right there.

This would indicate that Abby might have been leaning over the bed, or at least grabed on to the shams of the bed. Or maybe the blood spattered?

Looking at the autopsy report, there are contusions and bruises on the bridge of her nose and on her forehead. This would logically indicate that she impacted the floor on her face. The motion of the hatchet or weapon could easily have hooked the hairpiece and flung it anywhere. Yes, the spatters are explained by the back and forth motion of the weapon. I never thought that the finding of the hairpiece on the bed could conclusively indicate her position at the time of the attack.

If she was leaning over the bed when struck, the bed would absorb some of the force of her fall.

Hmm ... How did she fall? Loudly!

Oh, that was a cheap one. And I do like Abby.

Doherty says the 'rat' - Abby's false braid, or hairpiece - was black?? I dunno. When I saw it at the FRHS it was gray.

I'm beginning to wonder if everything really was black and white in those days. The reporters covering the trial described Lizzie's hair to be a wide variety of colors. And people had many different answers to the color of Lizzie's morning dress.

It is in some testimony somewhere (I am so lazy today ...) one of the doctors (Draper?) said that Abby was probably facing toward the murderer at first, shielded her face and instinctively got back toward the window. Can you imagine seeing your murderer and knowing you were gonna die - and die like that? At least Andrew probably didn't see his killer. Abby just got a bad deal all the way around.

If the killer didn't know Abby wore that fake braid, and it flew off when he/she struck at her, the look on the murderer's face must have been interesting.

Could the braid have flown off during the first blow? Did it land by itself on the bed, or is it a better explanation that someone placed it there. (I don't know why they would have bothered, tho. Unless it was Lizzie. I used to think she caught the braid with the hatchet on the first blow, having forgotten about the rat. When it was chopped off I could picture Lizzie laughing and making fun of Abby one last time with a crack about it. "Yes, MRS. BORDEN. Now EVERYONE will know about that precious braid you've been passing off as your own!" I always used to think Lizzie placed it on the bed.)

wouldn't the contusions on her face indicate that she was already unable to reflectively try to brace herself from the fall, to land where she did, is it possible that she at least half way landed on the bed, then went to the floor? It's just almost unbelievable how neat that room was, nothing knocked over, or out of place, no noise heard, and all done in such a small area. Hopefully she didn't even know what hit her, at least that would have been a blessing, her murderer the last thing she actually registered seeing.....

Shak - Anything's possible. The scenario I repeated was what one of the experts at the trial believed happened, and it seems to have stuck as the story all these years.

The clean and tidy room can be partially explained because Abby had just changed the bed and cleaned in there after Uncle Morse's overnite stay on August 3. Abby was expecting company on Monday - obviously someone who was going to be sleeping over. At this point, no one knows who.(Gee, I hope they had air freshener back then. Morse came from the Gross side of the family.) She had returned to the guest room to put shams on some pillows. (This is also a good example of debunking the always-heard rumor that Abby had NO friends, and only visited Sarah - her half-sister, and never went out at all. Right in the inquest testimony it tells of Abby asking Lizzie that morning if Lizzie wanted any meat for dinner. Abby goes shopping, and it was not an unusual thing for her to do.)

The general opinion of the facial contusions was that she received them when she fell face down on the carpet. If she had fallen partially on the bed, I think the bed would have been messed up. I don't know if it was or not. It's often said that Abby knew the murderer. I don't know - if it was someone Lizzie hired then that might not be so.

As far as the sound of Abby's body falling, I don't think that's strange at all for no one to hear it. She may have fallen in several stages, and not just one big 'boom!'. Any screaming she may have done was probably very brief, since one of the first blows probably killed her.

I think a lot of us tend to think of Second Street in 1892 to be so quiet without televisions blaring, radios, automobiles. But when you read about Fall River in that era - and in the trial testimony (Morse's maybe) - it is true that Second Street there was very busy. Noisy. Were windows closed because of the dirt horses and mills caused? I would not think it strange at all that no one heard her, even Bridget outside washing the windows. (Now, Lizzie I'm not so sure about.)

"I could picture Lizzie laughing and making fun of Abby one last time with a crack about it. "Yes, MRS. BORDEN. Now EVERYONE will know about that precious braid you've been passing off as your own!"

Oh, I quite agree! Yes, women do understand this case so very well!
A body falling in the guest room, full out splat, cannot be heard in the kitchen. I am a veteran of this -over 100 times as both the Body and the listener- and with the doors closed as they were on the day- even footsteps on the stairs, running around and a little scream and shriek are inaudible in the kitchen. And remember- the windows were closed-Bridget was washing them on the outside.

I have noticed that poor Abby invited her friends to stay when the girls seemed to be away. Augusta Tripp came when Abby was in Swansea a week, and Abby's pals were coming Monday the 8th when Emma would still have been in Fairhaven and Lizzie would have left for Marion. Poor old thing was not even mistress of her own house- those girls controlled the second floor.

snokkums @ Tue Oct 03, 2006 8:50 am wrote:Reading thru Patrick H. Doherty summation testimony his say(from page 590)

"I saw Mrs. Bordens head was cut and hacked and was lying in a pool of blodd. The blood seemed hard, seemed as if it had been there for some time. I saw blood spots on the pillow shams and abunch of hair on the bed, black hair.... I think it was about on the middle of the bed, right on the spread. It appeared to be a piece of hair which had been on the spread. It was half as large as my fist I should think.... I left it right there.

This would indicate that Abby might have been leaning over the bed, or at least grabed on to the shams of the bed. Or maybe the blood spattered?

Please, what source are you using, snokkums?
I checked the trial and this transcription of yours seems to be paraphrased.

Trial
Doherty
592
Q. Now, did you observe anything with reference to Mr. Borden's head?[sic-Mrs. Borden]
A. Yes, sir. I saw it was cut and hacked, and was lying in a pool of blood.

Q. Did you observe anything with reference to the blood?
A. Yes, sir. It seemed to be hard, seemed as if it had been there some time.

Q. Did you observe anything else about those premises?
A. Yes, sir.

Q. What?
A. I saw blood spots on the pillow shams and a bunch of hair on the bed, black hair.

Q. Well, describe that hair, and tell upon what part of the bed it was.
A. I think it was about on the middle of the bed, right on the spread.

Q. I don't know, I ask for information, was that a piece of hair that appeared to have been severed or a piece of hair that ladies sometimes use which is not their own?
A. It appeared to be a piece of hair which had been severed, I think.

Q. Then how large a piece of hair was it?
A. Well, it was half as large as my fist, I should think.

Q. Did you take that piece of hair away?
A. I did not.

Q. Left it there?
A. I left it right there.

Q. Have you seen it since?
A. I have not.

Q. You know nothing about where it went?
A. No, sir.

Page 593

Q. Did you observe anything else in the room?
A. I can't remember anything,---people there.

Q. I don't remember whether you saw the handkerchief or not. Did you, Mr. Doherty?
A. No, sir, I did not.

Earlier I showed testimony where the hair on the bed was Not the switch of *false* hair. This bit reinforces that it was not.
I understand, snokkums, that you did not say it was.

I would like to add that if testimony is posted, it should show source and be as carefully transcribed as possible. It should come from an accepted document that is on oath- not a newspaper or any paraphrasing thru an author. Otherwise it will only lead to confusion. Thanks.
~~~~~~~~

The way Abbie may have fallen is this:

She was facing the killer. Whether she was kneeling facing or standing facing- we're not sure. But the expert at the time said she was standing and facing.
She received a first blow, a scalp wound to the side of her face which created a flap. That probably bled a lot. She might then turn away and sink down, grabbing her head to ward off any more blows. We think she grabbed her head, more likely than tried to break her fall, because she was found with her arms encircling (somewhat) her head. (Not like in the photo, where her arms are now at chest level.) And also because she had the bruises on her face, it's likely she fell on her face. That again shows she may not have used her arms to break her fall.
However, she had no wounds to her hands or arms. So the next hit probably rendered her unconscious so her arms relaxed away from the savage attack to her head. Sooner or later she had a cut on her back near her neck, and she also had a concentration of blows that caved in her skull by/above her right ear.

There were speckles of blood on the bedspread, but I'm not sure how much was on the pillow shams?

The coverlet is marked pretty clearly, (top and bottom, etc. as it lay on the bed) and shows the little spots, fairly far apart- and the shams, when I saw them unfolded show some blood spots, but I cannot recall seeing any large amounts of blood- and what is still there has faded over time to a sort of faint rusty brown flecks.

How horrible for Abby, If Lizzie could have done something like that, it's just beyond words, and then to just go on living her new and improved life as if it were nothing more then squashing a bug! Every single little thing had to have gone in her favor for her to have gotten away with it, it's just totally unbelievable!!! She definately has better luck then I do!! I bet you (Shelley) and Kat have heard just about every variation possible for what happend on that day!!!

There are probably several more. And one we haven't dealt with yet may be the right one!

I personally have this thing about the cellar. Sawyer had a thing about it too when he was put on guard at the side door. And Morse tried to make Mr. Holmes believe that the cellar door was open that day.
There's something about that cellar....

It's funny how certain places can create vibes for some people that others cannot pick up. I've mentioned before that a group of us have been going ghost hunting in our area. Last week we went through an alley between the old provost's office and what had been the old dry goods store in Harpers Ferry and turned the corner to the back of the buildings. Several people got severe pains in their heads or ears and later the EVP's were jumping out like crazy on the recordings. One person had a really bad reaction and didn't remember anything about it afterwards. These were normal, down-to-earth, well adjusted people, so it was creepy. Needles to say, we don't want to go back there again.

Abby's braid must have taken a bit of cutting and slicing. You can see in the photo that Harry posted in the "Good Grief" topic, the left side is still all neatly braided, while the right end is quite chaotic.
I think it must have taken more than one "chop."

That's a good description.
Did we find out where it ended up yet- where it was found?

It's also interesting that Doherty says he didn't see the handkerchief at the scene. (T593)
I bet nowadays, they could have matched the cuts in the kerchief to the cuts in the hair switch. They could also confirm any hair on the kerchief as to whether Abbie even wore it at all.

Not only that, but look what might have been there DNA-wise that the human eye couldn't have picked up ie. sweat, saliva, hair and fibers! womever did it wouldn't have been so lucky in this century. And even though hands, clothes, buckets and sinks looked clean, they would still be able to pick up blood traces!

Kat, do you think someone may have been hiding down in the cellar, waiting to be called upstairs when the coast was clear, or Abby had gone back up stairs?
That cellar is alot bigger then I thought it was and could have been alot of places for someone to hide.

So the hair on the bed was not Abby's false braid? All these years I thought that it was.

The braid, as I recall it, was grey. The black hair they found on the bed was black. How would it have gotten on the bed? In just a clump?

It would be very interesting to know where the braid came from. If Harry saw a braid still on Abby's head, then perhaps it was returned to the family by the undertaker, Winward ... It wasn't buried with her. Was it an exhibit at the trial?

Why are people spelling "Abby"'s name "Abbie"?

I think Morse gave himself away by trying to tell people the cellar door was open. Then said he didn't say it.

Angel - Thanks for sharing your haunting experience! It's funny - you go out searching for ghosts, and when you find some you don't ever wanna go back!

augusta @ Thu Oct 05, 2006 5:12 pm wrote: If Harry saw a braid still on Abby's head, then perhaps it was returned to the family by the undertaker, Winward ...

Who, me? Do you mean Doherty?

It looks like the hair switch was not in evidence but it was part of Jennings Hip-bath Collection.
See the list at this link to the website, under Evidence:
http://www.lizzieandrewborden.com/Crime ... ceList.htm

PS: There is a list there of photos *sold* thru the FRHS- I don't know that they still do that. You may have to go there to see the archive.

shakiboo @ Thu Oct 05, 2006 4:26 pm wrote:Kat, do you think someone may have been hiding down in the cellar, waiting to be called upstairs when the coast was clear, or Abby had gone back up stairs?
That cellar is alot bigger then I thought it was and could have been alot of places for someone to hide.

I guess I may think that the cellar was the best place to hide, if someone was there in the house to hide.
All the implements that were carried away by the police were found down there, after all.
It has 2 ways of getting in or out. It's the entire size of the first floor of the house, with small rooms.
I don't think I am influenced by the Elizabeth Montgomery movie that has her *Lizzie* cleaning up down there and hiding a weapon. So I guess I do think someone could be hiding there and waiting.

The other possibility to conceal someone in comfort would have been the dress closet upstairs on the landing- and an easy leap to Abby in the room next door. It was locked, Lizzie had the key, Bridget would never go in there, in fact she had no reason to ever go on the second floor at all. One could also listen on the landing and hear if anyone entered the front door easily- and of course, we know Lizzie was upstairs near that closet at least once for 5 minutes or more that morning . I actually think she was up there when her father came home also.

If Lizzie really went up into the barn loft, and moved the west-facing curtain as a signal, could someone hiding in the cellar see that?

We will have the answer to that this weekend-stay tuned

augusta @ Thu Oct 05, 2006 5:12 pm wrote: Angel - Thanks for sharing your haunting experience! It's funny - you go out searching for ghosts, and when you find some you don't ever wanna go back!

Any time there's a negative atmosphere we do not want to return. There were some seriously disturbing EVPs and weird picture results at the John Brown fort in Harpers Ferry (where he was captured and some men died in 1859) and we really did not want to go back there. However, last Sunday evening we went to an old church and community center near our neighborhood and it was totally different. The community center is an old stone building that used to be an orphanage in the mid 1800's, and many people have reported hearing the laughter of children when they work there. When we first got there the pictures were not significant, but, as we spent more time there, many orbs started appearing in the pictures. One of the women had brought her 14 year old boy along and he put some toys on the floor. I saw him do this and so I was quite amazed when later we found some of the lego blocks had been put together while we were there and the head of a doll had been turned sideways. I don't know how much of this I believe, but that did surprise me. We did hear the voice of a little girl later on the EVPs. Interesting stuff. I would have no problem going back there because the atmosphere was so different.

I'm certainly willing to believe that Abby had more of a social life than Victoria Lincoln gave her, but wasn't the story of Abby closing the guest room door, to keep out the dust and everything in preparation for this "guest's" visit, straight from Lizzie's lips? Wasn't this to explain why the guest room door would've been closed in the middle of the day, with any body on the rug inside thus not visible to Lizzie from the landing?

Good Grief Shelley, you have alot of experiments going on this week-end! That should be interesting!! Back to the basement, if someone were down there hiding, they were in a position to murder anyone, Bridget when she went down, Lizzie, didn't Abby go down there too? Abby could have been surprised and taken care of with several places to hide the body, for as long as needed. She surly would have emptied her slop pail down there......