Lizzie Borden Society Forum

I've been collecting Handleless Hatchet info from the source documents to present here.

There was a question as to just where it was found. Most of the testimony that I did not collect for this presentation was too ambiguous. Anyone is welcome to read all the hatchet testimony in the source documents and filter thru it to get some essence.

I had a pretty good idea of the room where it was found, thru reading, before my first trip to visit the House. Then under tutelage of Bill Pavao who was Museum Curator at the time, I was shown and told information about the House. So I feel like I have a pretty good grasp of the finding of the hatchets and axes. But I am not the final word.

So here is my rendering of the cellar plan to aid in viewing and understanding, especially for those who have not yet been in the cellar.

A note to those who have been in the cellar: see that the rooms were still designated as actual rooms with doors back in the Borden days, 1892. There is a door to the furthest southwest room, as well as a door between the "Keep Cellar" and the "Laundry," and a door from the Laundry to the central passageway. This passageway is created on the left by the structure that is the "Water closet." (Also imagine this whole place pretty stuffed with Borden leftovers stored there over 20 years - ...or not...)

Also note the extra explanation on the floorplan in the southwest, streetside room by Kieran, of the "chimney base 6 feet high." That is right around the corner from the "Heater" which was the "furnace." Also notice that the "heater" is recessed back from the central *hall*- or what some described as an "alley" way- so it is more likely that the "little room back of the furnace" (per Bridget) is this one. In the area of the chimney behind that furnace is where the HH was found and it is now almost destroyed. The mason chipped away there so one can see even now what was obviously interesting to the searchers.

Also note on the plan that that furthest room forward also has 2 designations: as "Keep cellar" and as "Wood cellar"-- So when one reads about the wood cellar, one should keep in mind there were 2.


Extra Info here: The chopping block, upon which was found the claw head hatchet that was considered the likely weapon thru the preliminary hearing, was located between the "heater" and the door to that 2nd wood cellar, southwest room. Note that Bridget says Mr. Borden kept his wood here. The chopping block near that wood makes sense.
Next, please find the testimony.

Bridget
Preliminary Hearing
30
Q. Did you go down cellar?
A. Yes, with some of the officers.
Q. What officers?
A. I could not tell.
Q. Did you see any axes or hatchets in there?
A. Yes Sir in a box back of the furnace where Mr. Borden used to keep the wood.
Q. When you went down this time with the officers, were they there?
A. Yes Sir. They asked me to go down with them.
Q. They were in a box back of the furnace?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. Was that the first time you had seen them?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. Had you ever seen them before?
A. No Sir.
Q. Which officers went down?
A. I could not tell you one of them.
Q. You do not see any of them here?
A. I do not think I know any of them now.
........

Q. When was it that you went down cellar the day of the tragedy, I mean after it happened, when was it you went down cellar?
A. I could not tell you what time it was.
Q. Was it pretty soon after?
A. I should think it was. I could not tell the time.
Q. You went down with some officers?
A. Yes Sir.

Page 85

Q. Wherebouts in the cellar did you go?
A. I went in all the rooms, I think.
Q. You said these men found some axes in a box?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. This box was where?
A. In the little room back of the furnace.
Q. Was that in the part of the cellar towards the front side of the house?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. The furthest from the stairway where you went down stairs?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. The stairway that goes into the cellar, goes down from the back entry?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. That takes you down under the kitchen?
A. Yes Sir.
Q The wash room is under the kitchen?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. With a door into the back yard?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. Going along through the cellar is a room, what is that used for, a water closet?
A. No Sir, Mr. Borden kept wood there for the furnace.
Q. Beyond that was the furnace, going towards the front?
A. There was the furnace, and there was the door.
Q. This box in which the axes were, was near the front part of the cellar? That part of the cellar that is under the front part of the house?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. Who found those axes?
A. I could not tell you who the officers were; I was with them.
Q. How many were there?
A. I could not tell you.
Q. What kind of a box were they in?
A. A box we used to keep starch in, I think.
Q. That starch would come in?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. Standing, with their heads down in the box, and their handles sticking up?
A. As near as I can remember.
Q. Can you tell how many there were?
A. No Sir, I saw them there; one of the officers took them.
Q. Did you see them up stairs?
A. No Sir, I do not remember.
Q. Did you see them on the table up stairs?
A. No Sir.
Q. Do you know what officer it was?
A. No Sir.
Q. Did you know any one of the officers who went down stairs at the

Page 86

time you did?
A. No sir. They were all strangers to me; I did not know any of them.

~ ~ ~ ~ ~

Trial
Seaver
Q. At any time in the Saturday did you see a hatchet without a handle?
A. I did.

Page 743

Q. Who was present when you saw it?
A. Capt. Fleet.

Q. Did anyone point it out to you or did you see it without its being pointed out?
A. Capt. Fleet pointed it out to me.

Q. Where was the hatchet then?
A. It was in the box in the cellar.

Q. Could you tell anything about where it was in the cellar, where this box was then in?
A. The box was lying at that time at or near the floor, I think it was on some wood within perhaps a foot of the floor.

Q. Did Mr. Fleet point out any shelf to you at that time?
A. He pointed up the side of the wall, and says---

(Objected to.)

Q. Did he point out where it was when he first saw the box?

(Objected to.)

Q. Will you tell me where the shelf was that he pointed out?
A. I should say about six foot, between five and six feet, from the floor.

Q. Do you know in which cellar? Do you recall in which cellar?
A. Yes, sir; the cellar behind the furnace.

Q. Was that the same cellar in which the box was at the time you saw it, or in another cellar? Was the shelf in the same cellar?
A. It laid directly under. He just pointed above.

Q. What did you do when you saw this hatchet head?
A. I took hold of it and laid it back in the box, looking in the box to see if there was any handle to it.

Q. Did you find any handle?
A. I did not.

Page 744

Q. Can you describe the appearance of the hatchet at the time you saw it on the Saturday? If so, will you please do so?
A. It appeared to be covered with a coarse dust or ashes. I should call it more of ashes than of dust, it being a coarser dust than the dust on the box and other things.
..........

Q. Only one thing more. Where did you say you saw that box which had that hatchet in it?
A. In the cellar, sir?

Q. Yes.
A. In the cellar. It wasn't a great ways from the chimney of the cellar, and was pretty near the fire. I should think it was on some pieces of wood. It may have been six or eight inches from the floor. It was so I could stand and look into it.

Page 773

Q. Was it in the same room as the furnace?
A. My impression is it was in the next room to the furnace.

Q. To the west or east?
A. To the west.

Q. That is where the pile of ashes was?
A. Yes, sir; there was some ashes on the floor.
~ ~ ~ ~ ~

Trial
Mullaly
A. I then inquired of her [Lizzie]

Page 612

if she knew whether there was a hatchet or an ax on the premises, and she told me there was, and that Bridget Sullivan would tell me where they were.

.....
613

Q. Well, when you came down stairs where did you go?
A. I went from there down into the cellar.

Q. What did you do down there, Mr. Mullaly?
A. Bridget went with us. We went down looking for the hatchet and axes. Bridget led the way. She went into the cellar there, and she took from a box two hatchets.

Q. Can you tell in what room that was?
A. Well, that was at the east end of the house, in the cellar towards the east end.

Q. Would the plan help you at all in fixing that?
A. I think if I see it, it will. (Witness examined plan.) Yes, sir. It was in here (indicating), but then it looked different to me. It was in here. Here is what is called the wash room, that is, looking at it in there, and up here this box was, and from there--- well, it looked so to me as if there was a bulk head across there. That is the way it looked. I

Page 614

am telling from memory, and I saw a box, and from there saw where Bridget took those hatchets. (Witness indicated wood cellar near the chimney.) I won't say whether it was here or along there I took the axe down, but on the south wall.

Q. Of the same room?
A. I wouldn't say whether it was the same room or the other one.

Q. About how high was this shelf upon which this box containing the hatchets was?
A. Well, she reached up.

Q. How high was this shelf? I don't know that you answered.
A. I couldn't tell the distance, but Bridget Sullivan went over and reached up and took them out and gave them to me.

Q. So that it was so high that she had to reach up?
A. Yes, she had to reach up, and didn't have to stand on anything to get it.

Q. Could you tell those hatchets if you should see them again?
A. I think I could.

Q. (Presenting the claw hatchet and another.) What do you say as to those?
A. That (not the claw hatchet) looks very much like one of them which she took out. There was a spot on this large hatchet (i.e., claw hatchet), a little round spot, a rust spot.

Q. What did you do with the hatchets?
A. I took them out into what I call the wash room and laid them on the floor, and I
stayed there with them until Mr. Fleet came, and when Mr. Fleet came---

Q. Excuse me a moment. Before Mr. Fleet came had you found any other?
A. Those axes I carried from the south wall. I

Page 615

wouldn't say whether it was in that cellar or the cellar adjoining, but I took them down from the south wall of the house and put them on the floor with it, that is, four in all.

Thank you, Kat, for the diagram and information. I was always under the impression that the chimney that the hatchet was hidden in was closer to the back of the house but the diagram shows it was closer to the front.

If there are two chimneys sticking up through the roof, where is the second flue pipe coming up through the house? I see the flue for the main fireplace (sitting room) but what part of the house does the second one come up through? Lizzie's room? The upstairs landing?

I'll have to dig up some photos of the house and see if I can spot it. It could have been a metal flue coming up within a wall.

-1bigsteve (o:

I think 1bigsteve is right, the location of the chimney base in the diagram seems to put the chimney through the front entrance at about the doorway to the sitting room, and up from there. Perhaps it was meant to be on the other side in the sketch?

The chimney they speak of is sort of under the diningroom. Thanks for the diagram Kat- it is very helpful. I have been digesting all of this.

I am guessing the old furnace was in a similar spot. The ambiguity for me comes from ". They were in a box back of the furnace?"

The furnace in the photo above is in a jog between the 2 rooms. To my eye, the room back of the furnace looks like the first storage room, the one behind the laundry room. The farthest west storage room (again to my eye) is the one which is on Second street side of the house, or S.W. corner appears to be to the left of the furnace if you are facing west, or to the right of the furnace if you face east, or to make it even more confusing, behind the furnace only if you face south. I wish we knew which way he was facing !

Perhaps Shelley has a photo of exactly where that chimney base towards the front of the house is located? I believe there is still a fireplace mantel behind the headboard of the bed in the guest room and that would need a chimney to connect to towards the front of the house. I've asked Bill Pavao in the past if there was any evidence of a fireplace that would have been in the parlor directly below as the house used to be two seperate apartments. I don't believe that the wall was investigated closely there, so, no answer. In this pic the two chimneys look to be fairly close together on the roof.



EDIT: Sorry Shelley, you hadn't posted your pics yet when I started my post, we crossed paths.

Yes, I am thinking it was the same chimney which was the flue for behind the guestroom bed and also for the wall in between the diningroom and parlor- Yes- I have a picture.

View of the chimney from the stairs looking WEST

This same chimney continues up through the Knowlton room on the third floor- the oozing chimney room which was the storeroom in 1892.

The east end chimney goes through the kitchen (with a flue for the sitting room on the other side), in the basement it is the flue for the wash cauldron, then it goes up to Andrew and Abby's room where it is seen behind their bed today as a tin round flue cover, and finishes up in Bridget's room in the closet going up through the roof.
Sitting room side and kitchen side of same chimney wall

This is inside that far west wood room peering through the hole in the brick wall where the pipe passes to connect the furnace on the left.

"In the cellar. It wasn't a great ways from the chimney of the cellar, and was pretty near the fire. I should think it was on some pieces of wood. It may have been six or eight inches from the floor. It was so I could stand and look into it.

Page 773

Q. Was it in the same room as the furnace?
A. My impression is it was in the next room to the furnace.

Q. To the west or east?
A. To the west.

Q. That is where the pile of ashes was?
A. Yes, sir; there was some ashes on the floor.

This is the part which confuses me. What does Seaver mean by "the fire"- that I would take to mean the fire in the laundry room- which also has an ashpile under the cauldron, and a possibility of an ashpile near the chimney (East chimney). The west chimney is in the wrong place in the diagram above- and naturally that is one thing which could not have moved over the years. It is about 6 feet tall and is the base of the west chimney- that part is correct. Wow- such a muddle. Billy and Len will get an SOS this week

I made a little drawing with the chimney in the correct place. Am wondering if the "fire" might have been the fire in the furnace and the ash pile the trap at the bottom for cleaning out ashes? Then it would make more sense. Wish he had just said "furnace".

http://www.lizzieandrewborden.com/Crime ... tchart.gif

Hopefully this link will work.

Thanks! Okay- makes sense now. Today the furnace is where it is in my diagram. In 1892 the furnace was further east- near the wood cellar right behind the washroom chimney. Perfect! Hurray! This is where I thought the HH was.

OK, while I was giving more evidence, I see the disputed diagram has shown up.
I don't know why that would take precedence over mine?
I was scanning the original Kieran plan from the trial exhibit when the other came up here. I have source.

I can't see 2 of your photos Shelley. I will try going to Photobucket.

Here is the plan out of Knowlton Papers, a trial exhibit by Kieran. I have circled the 2 places where the diagram shows a *chimney-like* designation. I believe the one by the water closet was under the parlour and guest room? That's what that placement looks like to me, but I'm not sure about that side, the north side.

(The plan is white on black and I have made it black on white. No *flipping* or reversal of picture occurred.)

That clearly shows a third chimney base. One between the kitchen and sitting rooms, one between the parlor and dining rooms, and one roughly between the parlor and entrance foyer.

I wonder if there is evidence of a "patch job" in the flooring on the first and second floors above the six foot chimney base. The rafters in the attic would be framed to accomodate a chimney above the base if it was ever used as a chimney.

Wow- ANOTHER chimney now? Or at least a base for one- which looks as if it would pop up in the entry foyer going into the sitting room. Strange. If the wall -to-wall carpet is not nailed down I will see if I can find a trace. I have been in the attic and I cannot recall seeing vestiges for a hole for it to pop up through the roof. And I see in the plan above, the heater has been returned to the spot it is today, which..er- makes me have to rethink this again. In the end, I suppose it is not of earth-shaking importance to the deceased Bordens - it is mostly for me a matter of making sense of all the testimony, accounting for the HH, and getting the tour correct. People always ask where the HH was found.

Yes. that still-existent chimney is in the wall between the diningroom and the parlor. On the second floor in the wall between the guestroom and Emma's room, on the third floor it is exposed in the Knowlton room.

I'm thinking that front entry hall radiator might be in close approximation to the furnace /chimney placement on the floor below- meaning the cellar?

We went into the cellar for a good snoop yesterday. There is no evidence of any opening in the ceiling over the old chimney base area. The floorboards (which are the ceiling actually) are pristine and intact. There is a little smokey-ness in this area and we wondered if maybe long ago there had been a little fire, or it may have been simply from coal dust. Inside the farfront cellar, looking down at the bit of brick wall just behind the boiler, there is this opening about 14 inches high. We were thinking it may have been an opening to clean out ashes-a trap I think it is called.

The floor is interesting just under the boiler. After sweeping up some dust we noticed the area under the current boiler is brick. Maybe it was code or something that it had to be, and may have been a later addition since the Borden tenure there. What is a puzzle is that brick wall which is on the Second Street side of this front cellar. Lee Ann says little drafts and wind whistle through some of the mortar and we wondered why this brick wall was put up over the granite foundation inside. The granite is exposed everywhere else. Naturally the brick wall dividers can be explained between the rooms, but there was no need for the brick wall on the foundation side. Curious. There are many loose bricks. I think there will be some probing into this during the winter months!

Len thought originally the floor was packed earth. Lee Ann thought the poured concrete dates back to the McGinn years.

East chimney flue opening behind the Borden bed , second floor over the kitchen.

Like everything else in this case the make-up of the floor of the cellar has confusing testimony.

Mullaly is questioned about it at both the Preliminary and Trial. His Preliminary testimony (p351)

"Q. Then you went down stairs, Bridget leading the way, and she went to this place where the hatchets were got first?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. That is the part of the cellar that you turn into first when you come down the stairs?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. What was the floor of that, was it earth, or brick or boards?
A. In the wash room they were brick.
Q. I am speaking now of the first room you come into.
A. In the room where the hatchets were found, I would not say what the floor was.
Q. Is not a portion of the cellar still earth?
A. To the north of that is earth.
Q. To the north of what?
A. Of the cellar where the hatchets were.
Q. These hatchets you say she reached up, and took out of a box?
A. Yes Sir."

This is Mullaly's trial testimony (p531+)

"Q. Had you noticed whether either of the other two hatchets were covered with ashes?
A. The smaller one was somewhat dusty.
Q. It was dusty?
A. A little.
Q. When you saw it first?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. But you didn't see it until after the other officers had got that out, had that out in the wash-room on the brick floor?
A. I did not."

Fleet, also testifies the washroom was brick (Prelim, p357)

"Q. Then what did you do, Mr. Fleet?
A. We searched the cellar.
Q. Then what?
A. Dr. Dolan looked at these axes and hatchets; and he said we had better leave them there for the time being.
Q. Where were they, by the way?
A. In the wash room on the cellar floor.
Q. Was that a brick or wooden floor at that place?
A. Brick.
Q. Resting on what?
A. On the brick, only when we held them up, looking at them."

And Dr. Dolan had this to say (Prelim p178)

"Q. Do you mean to say that was a damp cellar?
A. The earth in any cellar is damp.
Q. Was there any earth there?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. Where?
A. Down stairs.
Q. Was not there a board floor?
A. In the washing apartment.
Q. Was there not in the room just as you turn to go down stairs?
A. No Sir, it was an earth floor, so far as I recollect.
Q. Are you quite sure about that?
A. Quite sure.
Q. These hatchets were standing upon the earth?
A. No Sir, they were not standing at all; they were lying down upon the earth.
Q. Blade down to the earth?
A, All down.
Q. Blade down on the earth?
A. It would have to be, would it not?"

From what I can gather from Mullaly was that the washroom was brick, the rest of the cellar earth. Dolan seems to think the washroom had boards and the rest earth.

Thanks for that! Well, it makes perfect sense that the washroom should have a hard surface floor. With all the water involved in laundry, a dirt floor would be mud in no time. Then, it may well be original brick beneath the boiler (furnace) now. I ran out of film before I could shoot that. Now I want to get to the bottom of that false brick wall- and what is behind it.

I think the most important thing about this cellar is whether someone in the WC could possibly hear a falling body from the second floor with all the traffic outside on Second Street.

I don't understand why it's being called a "false brick wall?"
Should it be called a brick wall until you find out otherwise?
It supposedly was a chimney, I understand.

In my Hatchet* article, I show the bricking around the laundry sink.
Bill told me there were boards leading to the water closet, like a boardwalk, which would raise the walker up a bit off the dirt floor. I bring up the boardwalk in comparison to the bricking around the sink to say that is one thing I have no actual support for other than Bill- that *walkway* to the water closet facility. Supposedly it contributed to creating that feeling of an "alley" down the center of the cellar that was described by one of the policemen.

There was also a sump pump in the floor somewhere I think behind the water closet. That is in a video Stef made if you want me to locate it?

*December/January, 2004,page 25.

Also, I am asking if that chimney corresponds with the radiator in the front entry? Or does the furnace?

The western and southern brick wall in that front cellar room which borders Second street are a non-supporting walls. The foundation walls are granite as you know. For some reason, a false wall- or inner liner wall of brick is put up against the interior side of the granite. Lee Ann and I went down and speculated on this early Wednesday morning. What was the purpose of it? Other areas of the cellar do not have this inner brick pattern. All along the top of this wall is a thin line of black soot. We wondered if perhaps at one time coal was stored there, or was there ever evidence of a chimney fire in the cellar? Some of the ceiling boards in the area of this chimney base look smokey as well. It might be coal dust.

She then told me that in the winter, cold blasts of air come out of this wall and she could not figure out where they come from. Is the air getting in from the top of the house, then blowing down the space between the two walls? Are there cracks in the exterior granite foundation? There do not appear to be. Is there an unknown opening somewhere? How big is the space between the two walls. We even thought there might be a place to hide something between the two walls, and looked for a removable brick.

I will have the answer to the lineup of the hall radiator to that chimney base tonight-I ran out of time to experiment and needed another person to help by tapping upstairs. But clearly, and with no doubt- there is no opening in the ceiling over what was the chimney base in the cellar. Those boards are original, uncut, unpatched- pristine. So either that chimney base was an error by the mason, or was put in for some reason we do not know. The base was not hooked into the west chimney, and with no flue, I can't see how it could have been functional for a furnace.

I tend to agree with Mullaly, Harry. I wonder that Dolan spent very much time in the cellar, or was particularly accustomed or trained to observe non-medical situations like flooring materials.

In any event, the cellar is an intriguing place, and also my favorite space within the house.

I have heard of the board flooring to the privy. That sump pump may have been put in during the McGinn tenure. Martha may remember. I have about 2 hours extra today to make a further investigation of the bricking patterns to share tomorrow.

north wall window with granite foundation showing ([img][img]http://i103.photobucket.com/albums/m155 ... wdrive.jpg[/img]

Shelley, is there evidence of a coal chute of any kind in the cellar? Unless they used one of the cellar windows to deliver the coal. Is the bricked over wall one of the exterior walls? Perhaps there was once a coal chute behind it?

First, I must make a correction- only ONE wall is bricked over in that room- the western one. It is the only place in the cellar where the granite is covered over with brick. There is a "dead space" of about 6" depth between the foundation wall and this non-supporting brick wall. I spent about 2 hours in the cellar this weekend poking around and will post a few photos as soon as I get them developed which will help to explain the findings- a few which I think might be interesting. No- no hatchets found yet!

oh, that sounds interesting! Lucky you, getting to poke around a mystery! That had to be exciting!!!

It is and was- I am about to put up the most recent investigations from this weekend. LeeAnn took a lantern and we had a real good snoop in the cellar.
Since it is not really Cellar Floorplan, I will make a proper thread for it. Life is good! Should an old gal with bad knees be having such a good time?