Lizzie Borden Society Forum

Brace yourselves I'm another gushing newbie! So this may be a bit long. I go through Lizzie mania every now and then........Something will set me off and I'll start looking online for Lizzie Borden and I always find something new! Like this site and the new magazine The Hatchet. They didn't turn up last year. So I'm doing a paper on Lizzie for college, for my Criminal Mind class, and I said to myself I was going to be good and write the paper and not get hooked on looking up new stuff on line.................. I failed............... By the way, You know you're a Bordenite if you can sit down and write a 14 page paper on Lizzie Borden without using any books for references..... So here I am. I guess from reading past posts this weekend, and NOT writing my paper, that Kat and Shelly work at or are involved with the Borden B&B? I have to say, to save myself, cause I messed up on the rates, that when I finally got there last October it was just amazing to be standing in that home after reading about for the last 30 years. I am 43, and back at college trying to finish my degree in history. But I've been reading about Lizzie Borden since I was 15! It used to make my parents a bit nervous though!~ So I have a couple of questions, sigh, I know, you've probably discussed some of this already but think of the joy it will bring to a newbie! First I have to say (to save myself from that rate mistake I made) that my visit last year was fantastic! I liked the fact that we were given free rein to explore the house from top to bottom. I was amaze at how well perserved it is! I'm still puzzled over the hole in the bathroom ceiling though. No one said you can't go there, or don't touch that, that was amazing and so nice! What really amazed me was the fact that in virtually every book on the murders, writers (who had no access to the home) made it out to be this badly built dump. IT"S NOT! It's a beautiful place with high ceilings and BIG rooms, far from the cramped box car like flat I expected. The building hasn't even settled which is amazing for its age (I'm also a Architectural Historian). Oh sure, I know the house was of date for 1892 and Lizzie wanted better, but I didn't see much to knock.
Okay, the closet under the front stairs threw me. I didn't know about it, so I was like, under the impression that the reason that Lizzie WAS guilty was because there was no place in the house for an intruder to hide. And there is this big ole closet in the middle of the house. I don't recall reading about it or seeing it brought up at the trail, am I right? I went back to my books and discovered there is a plan in Spierings book that shows the closet. The other thing that through me was the built in drawers in Lizzie's room, again, this was always called a closet. I grew up in a house with the samething, I KNOW what a great hiding place it was! I pulled the drawers out when I got into Lizzies room and look behind there, and there's plenty of space to hide an axe so that it wouldn't show, also space to hide a skirt.......... so how did the police look there? Guess we'll never know.
(all you old timers in here are probably rolling your eyes by now!)
Okay, so my paper for school is on the house, the role it played in the murders, and what I'm doing is taking 3 different theories and saying how they are wrong because of the house, or rather because of the writers lack of understanding how the home was lived in in 1892. So, 1st theory is Lizzie, innocent/guilty, and then I have Browns book and his theory, I have Radin, for Bridget, then I have David Kent and Spiering, I'm not sure which yet. But I had some questions about the house maybe someone can answer, or give me a thingy............ ummmmm, some way to find the previous post in here if the closet has been discussed before, and any posts on the house itself. I was interested in the history of the house after Lizzie and Emma sold it, I can't find anything on it. I wish someone would write a book about Lizzie AFTER the murders. 1894-1928! I'm more interested in the real Lizzie then the myths and stuff. I know in my heart that she had to have killed Abby and her father, but I guess the romantic side of me wants to believe she was innocent. I firmly believe someone could have hid in the house without notice, who's to say that if Lizzie did find someone hiding they would have killed her too?
Anyway............ I'm interested in working from the view of the house as a silent witness, and how people's misunderstand how the Bordens, or how people lived back in 1892 (I've seen that in posts in here, people using 20th century thinking when discussing the house and lizzie). I always thought that the McGinn's built Leary press in the 1940's. But I saw a picture here in this web site that was dated circa 1915 and there was the building built beside the house! So I'm assuming someone built a store that later became the Leary Press. I don't think I need it for my paper, more my own curosity, about what kind of store it was it's uses etc. but I'd like to know if there have been posts in here about the house that I could read, if that's possible. I'd like to know about the house from 1900 to when the McGinn's bought it. I didn't figure out any way to get to past posts or the archives I mean, but I know stuff come up on google when I was looking yesterday from this site. I don't know why I didn't find this last year! I missed all the Lizzie Borden Quarterlys because I never knew it existed, I'm really bummed about that. The ones I did get were so full of information. The new magazine looks good too. Okay I guess that's all for now sorry for the long post, this site looks great! Everyone seems very nice from all the posts I've read so far. It was going great until I ran into the one bad apple in here that seems to just want to make trouble, that's too bad. In all the posts up to then everyone was so polite and nice and really allowed people to talk and be recognized without being harrased or insulted.


Thanks for reading my long post, I'll chill out in a couple of days, honestly!
I have to finish that paper!


Steven

Welcome, StevenB! Perhaps the forum could be considered a constructive distraction where your paper is concerned!?

Welcome Steve. You will find a great deal about the house under Fall River and Environs- the threads called , "The House". "The Cellar", "Cellar Investigations" , "The Barn" and "Points of View". The hole in the bathroom ceiling on the second floor is an emergency exit for the third floor which is entered by way of the closet in the "Jennings" room. B&B Code demanded 2 exits from the third floor. There is a rope ladder to drop down from the third floor in the closet.

In 1892 the current bookcase-drawers in Lizzie's room was a closet which Lizzie called her "toilet room". It had a pale silk curtain drawn in front of it to hide her washstand.

The house deed was held by the Borden girls until 1918 and has been over time a boarding house, a kewpie doll factory, a button factory and a private home attached to the print shop, Leary Press.

P.S. The police did a thorough search of the house on Saturday, August 6th including a turning out of all of Lizzie's drawers, clothing, closets, etc. from about 3:15- 6 :30-this was the day of the funeral. Even her piano in the parlor was opened up and searched. (Source Rebello, Lizzie Borden Past and Present)

Welcome StevenB, I was wondering what your major in school is, what your are studing?

Hello!

In The Hatchet Vol. 2, Issue 3, June/July 2005, there are photos and a diary of the demolition of the Leary Press by visitor Mark Amarantes, pgs. 6-32.

Then there is my article on the history of the house, called "Demolition Begins" pages 34-37.

My sources were an in-person tour given me by the past resident curator Bill Pavao, an interesting article in The Boston Globe of April 30, 1980, "For Sale: Fine Victorian House, Refurbished By Heiress Known For Her Determination To Do A Job Right."-- Also Rebello's book. Then I called Bill and interviewed him on the article in the paper and called Len Rebello and interviewed him on the article in the paper, because I wanted to verify things. Not all of the info in the paper was accurate.

On pages 38 and 39 I include census info as to who lived there. I posted here thru 1870, but in my article include 1920 and 1930.
In 1918 the property sold to John Dunn, a real estate agent born in England.

BTW: No I don't work at the House or for the House, but Shelley has years of experience there.

I want Rebello's book sooooooooooooooooooooooo bad, everyone in here keeps refering to it and it's driving my nuts. I found 2 copies but they were $105.00! Maybe next semester if I get a good amount of student loans I'll splurge and buy it for my Brthday!


Steven









[quote="Shelley @ Sun Nov 26, 2006 11:24 pm"]P.S. The police did a thorough search of the house on Saturday, August 6th including a turning out of all of Lizzie's drawers, clothing, closets, etc. from about 3:15- 6 :30-this was the day of the funeral. Even her piano in the parlor was opened up and searched. (Source Rebello, Lizzie Borden Past and Present)[/quote]

My major is History with a Minor in English ( I still can't spell!). I want to go to get a Master in Museum Studies hopefully. That's what I aiming for/ I'm 43 so I want to finish before it's time to retire! My area of interest is American history from 1621 to about 1840. I also am a Architectual Historian, I don't have a degree in that just 30 years of experience working on old house and restoring them. I do a lot of advocating trying to save old building from being destroyed. I've written 2 books about my home town. I'm also Bi-Polar so it's a struggle sometimes to keep up with everything and to stay organized. I thought the posts about the possibility of Lizzie being Bi-Polar in here were great!


Steven





[quote="Oscar @ Sun Nov 26, 2006 11:58 pm"]Welcome StevenB, I was wondering what your major in school is, what your are studing?[/quote]

Welcome to the forum, Steven. Guess this forum would be a bit of distraction. But if you look in the crime scene gallery and resourses on this site. It might help you on your paper.

Welcome to the Forum, Steven, new blood is always a plus! Best of luck on your paper.

I thought you mentioned Rebello earlier and The Hatchet. It was my impression you had access to these.

OK I understand now. You, Steven, were quoting a person who gave Rebello as a source. Sorry to misunderstand.

Anyway, up north there they have his book in the reference department. You could find it at the library.

StevenB @ Sun Nov 26, 2006 9:55 pm wrote:Brace yourselves I'm another gushing newbie! So this may be a bit long. I go through Lizzie mania every now and then
...
Steven

Its not too late to save yourself from addiction if you quit now!!!

Abandon hope all you who enter this site. Dante Alighieri

I wonder if Lizzie Mania is soon to be entered into the DSM-VI among the many other psychiatric disorders!

I for one, have so much ambivalence about Lizzie, whther it is ethical to hold a possible murderess in such high esteam and/or interest.

And what would Lizzie and/or Andrew, for that matter, think of someone like me, a social worker. Next time I come to the house, we should hold a seance!

Well, I don't usually reveal this until I know people better cause I don't want anyone thinking I'm a nutter, but I am a Psychic Medium. I put off going to the house for a long time because I was worried about what I might pick up spirit wise, I mean what if you knew what really happened? Would you reveal it? Everyone would be out of business real fast! When I went I got the pictures I told you all about but I didn't pick anything up or sense anything probably because I was so excited to actually be there and also things were confusing, moving and reparking cars, the tour, and wanting to see EVERYTHING. But, I can't speak for other Psychics, but for myself I would never do a reading or seance at the home (I can't find my Dictionary atm) because I feel it would be unethical because I know too much about Lizzie and the case so I couldn't be sure what I picked up from spirits was correct or my own knowledge. I've read all about the psychics that have read at the house and, just my opinion, I don't see how they can be believed. Now if someone blind folded me drove me around and didn't tell me where I was going, now that would be something! But I don't see that happening. Actually I was taken to a couple places like that and it worked fine. I'm very careful about my readings and I am very ethical, and honest.




StevenB

I for one like nutters, how british! It's only the "sane" who make me nervous!

When I stayed at the house I asked that there not be any psychic readings during my overnight stay. As far as I know they complied. However, I don't know what all those other guests were doing in the parlour with the door shut for all that time!
I don't want a seance or a OUJIA.

On each of my visits, I have been too preoccupied with the people, events, and excitement to quiet and try to pick up anything. I think I have even been consciously guarding myself while there.

I think it makes a lot of sense to be blindfolded and driven around first but you'd have to not even know what city you were in!

Considering all the people who have lived in that house over the years, and when it was a rooming house, I often ask the psychics how can they be sure they are channelling the Bordens?

The house was never originally marketed as a haunted property- this is something which developed, especially after the travel channel episode. We get about half and half for guests- the ghosthunters, and the Historians. Sometimes they mix well, sometimes we have two distinct groups who separate into the parlor and the diningroom. One lady from New York said no good comes from "raising the dead spirits".

I am a skeptic. The history part of the residence is what interests me. But, as an added entertainment for some of the guests who like it, there is a weekend psychic who does private readings for guests, and the occasional seance. I have been to three- nothing happened that I could see.

But I must begrudgingly admit, that from time to time something bizarre occurs while I am in the house. Last Saturday I was alone in the diningroom reading a book and clearly heard a deep sighing sound at my right shoulder, behind my chair. So, maybe I am becoming a nutter too. What did I do? Nothing. Sometimes it's better to just not question too much!