Lizzie Borden Society Forum

Whether Andrew had a will or not is being discussed in another thread. But it appears from his actions that he definitely had the long term financial interests of his family in mind.

In May of 1889 the permit was issued to begin construction of the A. J. Borden building. Occupancy began in 1890 and the initial cost was estimated at $35,000. (see Rebello p56). Andrew was 67 years old at that time. This was already well beyond the average life expectancy of a man in 1890. Without looking it up I believe it was in the high 50s.

I can't believe that he expected to recoup his investment in his remaining years, but it would certainly be a nice plum to leave to his family.

There is also another anecdote in a similar vein that appeared in the New Bedford Evening Standard, Aug. 11, 1892. It appears in Rebello, p26:

"Did you know Andrew J. Borden? Not intimately, but I know he was a close-fisted business man. Here's an incident: As one of the committee of the Knights of Pythias, I called upon him to see about leasing his lot on Main and Anawan Streets where his big block now stands ... He said he would lease the lot for a term of 20 to 50 years on a sliding scale of its assessed valuation, asking nothing but 6 per cent on that amount. That struck us as very favorable; then he added as the condition that we build a structure costing no less than $65,000. That was all right. Then he added that at the end of the lease the building should belong to the estate.
That knocked the whole thing. But you see how careful he was on behalf of his heirs, for he must have been dead at the expiration of the lease by thirty years at least, living his allotted time. We wanted him to provide for the sale to the estate at a figure to be fixed by judges, but he had said his way and would hear nothing else. This is an incident fairly illustrative of Andrew J. Borden's character. He is well-known to have been a hard businessman, and I do not know that his treatment of his daughters was such as to furnish a possible motive for such a deed as this."

Harry @ Thu Dec 07, 2006 11:06 am wrote:"Whether Andrew had a will or not is being discussed in another thread. But it appears from his actions that he definitely had the long term financial interests of his family in mind this."

Yes Harry, I think Andrew was driven by money, driven to win and that the real game was more about winning and money than family. At least that is my gut feeling. I believe people like A. J. Borden never consider "passing away" as part of the "making money equation." When it comes to money it is all about winning.

That is not to say that he did not realize that he would die and that his heirs would benefit from his investments, just that if he had no heirs at all it is my opinion that he would not function any differently. No?

Yes, those are good points well worth considering. A good many people do not consider their demise even today despite all the financial advice available. Personally I have no intention of dying.

It's just the amount of money ($35,000 was huge in 1889) and the time involved in the Pythia incident that raised the thought in my mind. It must have at least crossed his mind.

Andrew had spoken to at least a couple of people about making a will, even if just in passing. I expect he was aware he would not live forever. He couldn't very well "take it with him", so I'm sure he realized that someday his family would inherit his estate. His reasons for accumulating wealth we may never know, but he wasn't in any hurry to spend it. He didn't seem to derive any specific pleasure from "things". Maybe when we consider the living conditions while he was growing up we'll realize he was living far better than he had previously, and maybe that was enough for him. His thrifty habits may have been intended as an example to those who would carry on the family legacy.

I think above all, Andrew was motivated. I can't see him retiring from business completely, nor can I see him curtailing investments. I think that was his primary pleasure.

Andy's speaking about a will to several people might just be a trick to sound them out and get their opinion.
Its a well known trick for operatives to get a person talking so they will lead themselves to the subject you really want to know about but won't ask because they might not want to discuss the subject. IMO

mbhenty @ Thu Dec 07, 2006 11:27 am wrote:

Harry @ Thu Dec 07, 2006 11:06 am wrote:"Whether Andrew had a will or not is being discussed in another thread. But it appears from his actions that he definitely had the long term financial interests of his family in mind this."

Yes Harry, I think Andrew was driven by money, driven to win and that the real game was more about winning and money than family. At least that is my gut feeling. I believe people like A. J. Borden never consider "passing away" as part of the "making money equation." When it comes to money it is all about winning.

That is not to say that he did not realize that he would die and that his heirs would benefit from his investments, just that if he had no heirs at all it is my opinion that he would not function any differently. No?

I think Andrew probably would have wanted to be buried with his money, as tight fisted as he was!LOL

When Andrew was talking about "heirs" did that mean only Emma and Lizzie or was he also talking about Abby's family too? What kind of a split may have Andrew been thinking of between Abby and the girls? Also, by 20-30 years both Emma and Lizzie would have been close to their own deaths. Would that have meant the building could have eventually ended up with Abby's grandchild?

DWilly @ Fri Dec 08, 2006 9:29 am wrote:When Andrew was talking about "heirs" did that mean only Emma and Lizzie or was he also talking about Abby's family too? What kind of a split may have Andrew been thinking of between Abby and the girls? Also, by 20-30 years both Emma and Lizzie would have been close to their own deaths. Would that have meant the building could have eventually ended up with Abby's grandchild?

Under the English Common Law a widow would get 1/3 the estate while she lived (dower rights). The rest divided among legitimate children.

Would Abby have had any grandchildren ??





Tracy...

theebmonique @ Fri Dec 08, 2006 12:43 pm wrote:Would Abby have had any grandchildren ??

Tracy...

WHAT is the purpose of your question? If you think Abby had any grandchildren, please let us in on your secret knowledge.
Inquiring minds want to know.

This is a typical example of one of Rays posts. He has no respect for anyone other than himself, and he likes to start trouble.

RayS @ Fri Dec 08, 2006 9:53 am wrote:

theebmonique @ Fri Dec 08, 2006 12:43 pm wrote:Would Abby have had any grandchildren ??

Tracy...

WHAT is the purpose of your question? If you think Abby had any grandchildren, please let us in on your secret knowledge.
Inquiring minds want to know.

Whew Ray...Scott is SO right.

Since you aren't understanding and are twisting things AGAIN, let me rephrase the question in the form of a sentence...I wasn't aware that Abby had children of her by which she could possibly have grandchildren.





Tracy...

RayS @ Fri Dec 08, 2006 11:53 am wrote:

theebmonique @ Fri Dec 08, 2006 12:43 pm wrote:Would Abby have had any grandchildren ??

Tracy...

WHAT is the purpose of your question? If you think Abby had any grandchildren, please let us in on your secret knowledge.
Inquiring minds want to know.

It was a rhetorical question, Ray. Learn to recognize subtlety.

theebmonique @ Fri Dec 08, 2006 12:43 pm wrote:Would Abby have had any grandchildren ??





Tracy...

Sorry, I worded that wrong. What I was thinking of was didn't Abby's stepsister have kids? Seems like I remember a "Little Abby" That's who I was thinking of.

Oh yes, ok...that makes sense.





Tracy...

Ok now you got me wondering, would Andrew have considered little Abby as one would consider a grandchild? I am betting Mrs. Borden did? You would think a small child would have brought much happiness to the Bordens household.

Maybe some other household, but I think Lizzie being the youngest of Andrew's children, even at her age, she'd have resented any attention given any other child. I think that's where her resentment of Abbie comes from, her father being close to anyone else. Especially if she never got the attention she needed from him when she was young. I think Emma had the most of Lizzies care,

Once the baby, always the baby.....
That does make sense to me.