Lizzie Borden Society Forum

Our Diana, many moons ago, found this article which mentions a Mrs. Andrew J. Borden as being on a committee at the YMCA. We have long wondered whether this is "our" Abbie. The article appeared in the Fall River Globe on May 20, 1891.

"Report from the First Annual of the Women's Auxiliary

The Women's Auxiliary of the Y.M.C.A. held its first annual meeting yesterday afternoon which was largely attended. This branch of the association has contributed largely to its success and has been untiring in its efforts to promote the work which has been undertaken.

Mrs. Norman E. Borden, the president, tendered her resignation but her executive ability and efficiency were too highly appreciated by her associates and they refused to entertain the idea of her withdrawal. Consequently she consented to serve another term and all were reelected. Interesting reports of various topics then followed the election. They are as follows:

Membership by Mrs. Andrew J. Borden

Social by Mrs. George Stowell
Rooms by Mrs. B. J. Handy
Devotional by Mrs. R. K. Remington
Visitations of the Sick by Mrs. E.T. Marvel

The exercises were interspersed with vocal music by Ida F. Ferry, Mrs. R. K. Remington, and Mrs. D. A. Chapin.

The general secretary in a few brief word expressed the appreciation of the association of the help rendered by the Auxiliary after which the meeting adjourned for a social hour during which chocolate and cake were served by the social committee.
Later on it is possible that the receptions which have been so successful will be repeated."

There are several things I found interesting. The name Remington stands out as 2 of the ladies on Lizzie's missed fishing trip were Louise and Mabel Remington. Add to that Bridget before coming to the Bordens worked for Clinton V. S. Remington on High St. Were these Remington's related? Could Bridget have come to the Borden's through this relationship.

Mrs. Dr. Handy is also mentioned. How close were the Handy's and the Bordens? We know Andrew may not have liked the good doctor but could Abbie have been friends with the doctor's wife through this committee? It was at Dr. Handy's cottage in Marion that the girls were supposed to stay for the fishing trip.

Also Mrs. Holmes' maiden name was Remington. Was she related in any way?

What I found particularly interesting were the lines "Visitations of the Sick by Mrs. E.T. Marvel"

That's too obvious for comment. If this is indeed our Abbie .... could she have also been involved in this task? Hmmmmm...

If it was, it means that Abby was not a recluse as she is sometimes said to be.
If you lived in that house, maybe you too would seek outside interests. Lizzie did so.

A crazy vision just hit me... Abby pumping iron!

It could be that Abby was much more active in social events than what we have been lead to believe. Maybe she was not the "home body" we thought, if that is our Abby. Was there another "Mrs. Andrew J. Borden?"

-1bigsteve (o:

All I could picture was Abby doing the YMCA song antics to the Village People song. LOL

sometimes, you can be a recluse and go out. My brother is like that,occasionally he will go out to eat, but for the most part, he stays home.

I always doubted the stereo type that Abby was a recluse. In Lizzie’s inquest testimony, she refers to Abby going out almost every day to the do the marketing. Apparently, Abby asked Lizzie what kind of meat she wanted with supper because she was going out to get the groceries.

Perhaps she just didn’t have many friends, her husband kept her on a short leash, or she was too busy with running the household, or a combination of all three.

Can someone cite any example of people testifying to her being a recluse outside of the possibility that she didn’t have much of a social life?

I think you are reading history backwards. The YMCA may have been quite different in those days. After the Civil War it was designed (?) as a respectable hotel for young men away from home on business. A moral atmosphere, unlike those hotels that rent rooms by the hour.

No, this is just my memory, I read no book on this.
But a search of Amazon may find something.

Abbie or Abby was a very common name of the era, and Bordens abounded in the city. I think a look around Oak Grove is in order. I did find one other Andrew J. Borden by accident in October buried there. I would think that someone from the organization would have commented on Abby had she been on that board, or a floral display would have been sent .

I'd like to hope our Abby had something other than domestic drudgery, but it will need more hunting down I think before we can say for sure. There are bound to be records-the YMCA is still there. A project for the winter....

Richard @ Tue Dec 12, 2006 3:59 pm wrote:I always doubted the stereo type that Abbie was a recluse. In Lizzie’s inquest testimony, she refers to Abbie going out almost every day to the do the marketing. Apparently, Abbie asked Lizzie what kind of meat she wanted with supper because she was going out to get the groceries.

Perhaps she just didn’t have many friends, her husband kept her on a short leash, or she was too busy with running the household, or a combination of all three.

Can someone cite any example of people testifying to her being a recluse outside of the possibility that she didn’t have much of a social life?

Richard, those last few lines are excellent (not that the rest isn't ). I need to research the sources of these statements that Abbie was a recluse. Personally I do not believe it. Nor do I believe Andrew was the miser he's made out to be.

RayS, you are very correct that the YMCA in the 1890s was very different from what it is today. A friend of mine lives in the YMCA in Bayonne and it is by no means a respectable hotel for gentlemen!!

Harry, I read in Victoria Lincolon that "At the inquest Lizzie claimed that Abby waddled almost daily to market" pg 68.

In fact, the following exchange took place at the Inquest:

Q. Was it usual for your mother to go out?
A. Yes sir, she went out every morning nearly and did the marketing

Where in that do you see the word "waddle"?

Waddle implies that Abby's daily activities in town was labored and forced, and that she was somehow comical about it.

This is an example of how stray or carefully placed words reveal deep prejudices by the authors.

Nothing is as bad as the picture painted of Abby in the 1975 movie. Not only is Abby UGLY, chubby, nasty-tempered and frugal- she also slurps her soup and is totally unlovable. Sadly that movie gives a lot of guests to the house such a highly -colored one-dimensional impression of the real Abby.

Did anyone here win any of the old Fall River city directories that were on eBay earlier in the year? They would sure come in handy right now to discern how many Andrew Bordens there were in the city at the time, and if the others were married or not (and, what the spouses' names were).

http://lizzieandrewborden.com/Archive20 ... andrew.htm

I think Harry explained to me that the "Mrs." were not listed in City Directories unless they were a widow or sole breadearner.

We should check the UMASS site?
http://ccbit.cs.umass.edu/lizzie/

A census would help but the 1890 burned up.
BTW: I met a lady with a Saratoga Racetrack jacket on on Monday! She knew your street.

Usually the census lists all who are under the roof.

Yes that is so. But we have no census for 1890. The City Directory is what we would have, and not all family members are included, mostly male heads.
The first link is for a previous discussion on the Andrew Bordens that were found.

Shelley @ Tue Dec 12, 2006 10:10 pm wrote:Nothing is as bad as the picture painted of Abby in the 1975 movie. Not only is Abby UGLY, chubby, nasty-tempered and frugal- she also slurps her soup and is totally unlovable. Sadly that movie gives a lot of guests to the house such a highly -colored one-dimensional impression of the real Abby.

Its entertainment, not education or history.
The story of the wicked stepmother again?
Did you see the story about a stepmother who attacked her sleeping step-daughter with a hammer? Convicted of murder. No, it wasn't self-defense!

Surely you jest? NOBODY grown up expects truth from Hollywood, do they?

People who actually do research are very much in the minority- including some authors!

Anybody I know?

I realize the movie was entertainment- but surprisingly many people, who are not of a historical-research inclination, and who think Hollywood does some homework on scripts believe Andrew embalmed bodies in the cellar, and that Abby was a monster and Lizzie was fully justified in chopping her to bits. People who actually do research are very much in the minority- including some authors!

I was going to have a look in the 1880 census to see about another Abby Borden. Am not sure if the YMCA has kept records so far back.

Well, she's not referred to as "Abby Borden" she is called "Mrs. Andrew J. Borden."

I've wondered if some of the following could add weight to the idea that Abby was indeed the Mrs. Andrew J. Borden mentioned as being the YMCA membership secretary.

In 1900, the Misses Emma and Lizzie Borden each contributed $2,000 toward the Y's building expansion project. (source Greater Fall River YMCA website)

And Emma, of course, also left the YMCA $10,000 in her will.

I’m leaping to the conclusion here that perhaps Abby's involvement had something to do with the Borden’s continued support of the YMCA.

I know this won’t make sense to those who are convinced the sisters hated Abby enough to kill her – but I think we have to remember how much appearances were valued in Fall River society. I get the feeling that it would have been important to Emma, especially, to be seen doing the right thing. And if Abby was involved with the Y – and the sisters were approached for a donation, I can see how they might respond favorably for that reason alone.

Unfortunately I think it would be hard to prove whether or not it was Abby due to the fact that no first name for the woman was mentioned in the article. Unless there is some record that still exists that is held by the the YMCA which specifically states it was Abby Durfee Borden. If there were more than one married Andrew J. Borden which lived in Fall River at this time we may never know.

I don't know if this is somehow related to Abbie's possible involvement with the YMCA but Lizzie says something in her Inquest testimony (page 80) that is curious:

"Q. Miss Borden, I want you now to tell me all the talk you had with your mother, when you came down, and all the talk she had with you. Please begin again.
A. She asked me how I felt. I told her. She asked me what I wanted for dinner. I told her not anything, what kind of meat I wanted for dinner. I told her not any. She said she had been up and made the spare bed, and was going to take up some linen pillow cases for the small pillows at the foot, and then the room was done. She says: "I have had a note from somebody that is sick, and I am going out, and I will get the din- [sic] at the same time." I think she said something about the weather, I don't know. She also asked me if I would direct some paper wrappers for her, which I did."

The words Lizzie used are "for her". Of course we don't know what the wrappers were for and we have speculated they were for the newspaper. That seems to be the most logical reason. But could they not also be for some mailing that Abbie had to do if she was involved with the membership of the YMCA?

Lizzie's statement is not quite clear to me. Is she saying that the wrappers were for Abbie or is she saying she would do the wrappers that Abbie normally did? That's assuming Abbie normally did them.