Lizzie Borden Society Forum

In 1892, Fall River had 75,000 people. The foriegn born were French Canadian mill operatives; Italians a few Russian Jews, the usual half dozen Chinese Laundry merchants, and the sprinkling of Portugese from the Azores were scattered throughout the state.

I was wondering if LIzzie had any friends that were foreigners, and what she thought of them.

Asking for your source again here, I hope you don't mind?

Nopw don't mind. It's from the book "Trial o fLIzzie Borden", the pearson edition. I was always curious as to how she felt with the immagrants and such.

Well, with a doctor living behind the Borden family, French Canadian, and an Irish doctor living next door- admittedly Dr. Kelly was out of town- Lizzie sent for Dr. Bowen, a Baptist.

I don't know what that may infer, other than he thought of himself as a friend of the family.

If I was Lizzie, I'd have sent for the nearest doctor at home. But come to think of it- none of them were home!
Anyway, she may not have known that, but still only sent for Bowen.

Possibly she only wanted Bowen because he was a friend...?

Later on, as Lizbeth, she seemed very friendly with her servants but expected them to remain unmarried.
I'm not sure that, altho some believe her to be pretty democratic in her approach to people, that only employing single people seems a bit autocratic to me.

Kat @ Fri Dec 22, 2006 3:35 pm wrote:...Later on, as Lizbeth, she seemed very friendly with her servants but expected them to remain unmarried.
I'm not sure that, altho some believe her to be pretty democratic in her approach to people, that only employing single people seems a bit autocratic to me.

Was that a rule that applied to all of her servants or only the female ones? I thought Ernest Terry was married.


I think Lizzie only wanting single women may have been a common attitude back then. Most people in her era thought that once a woman got married she should no longer work. I recall reading that most female school teachers had to quit teaching once they got married.

DWilly @ Fri Dec 22, 2006 3:48 pm wrote:

Kat @ Fri Dec 22, 2006 3:35 pm wrote:...Later on, as Lizbeth, she seemed very friendly with her servants but expected them to remain unmarried.
I'm not sure that, altho some believe her to be pretty democratic in her approach to people, that only employing single people seems a bit autocratic to me.

Was that a rule that applied to all of her servants or only the female ones? I thought Ernest Terry was married.

I think Lizzie only wanting single women may have been a common attitude back then. Most people in her era thought that once a woman got married she should no longer work. I recall reading that most female school teachers had to quit teaching once they got married.

Maybe its the same reason that expells pregnant girls from high school.
If they still do that today.

Well, if you've got a servant, and you say they are out of a job if they get married, like what happened with "gramma's" grandmother, then that sounds autocratic to me.
Just having servants and being able to enforce a rule like that is your answer, I think.

Kat @ Fri Dec 22, 2006 6:09 pm wrote:Well, if you've got a servant, and you say they are out of a job if they get married, like what happened with "gramma's" grandmother, then that sounds autocratic to me.
Just having servants and being able to enforce a rule like that is your answer, I think.

By the standards of today, yes, Lizzie was autocratic. However, I think by the standards of her own era her views were pretty typical.

Btw, has it been proven that "gramma's" grandmother worked for Lizzie or is that just something she claims happened and we don't know for sure?

To give an idea of how people during Lizzie's time viewed things here are some rules for teachers in 1872. This, to me, gives us an idea of where Lizzie got some of her attitudes from:



Rules for Teachers 1872
Teachers each day will fill lamps, clean chimneys.

Each Teacher will bring a bucket of water and a scuttle of coal for the days session.

Make your pens carefully. You may whittle nibs to the individual taste of the pupils.

Men Teachers may take one evening each for courting purposes or two evenings a week if they go to church regularly.

After ten hours in school, the Teachers may spend the remaining time reading the Bible or other good books.

Women Teachers who marry, or engage in unseemly conduct will be dismissed.
Every Teacher should lay aside from each pay, a goodly sum of his earnings for his benefit during his declining years so that he will not be a burden on society.

Any Teacher who smokes, used liquor in any form, frequents pool or public halls or gets shaved in a barbers shop will give any good reason to support his worth, intention, integrity and honesty.

Holy cow! it's a wonder anyone even wanted to teach!!

You are write! With all those rules who would want to teach!

Shakiboo is right. People who go into teaching know there are "rules". The reason 99% I dare say, of the people who teach, do it because it's what is in their hearts.





Tracy...

Thanks for the rules!
They are 1872 tho, after all.

Lizzie became Lizbeth in 1905- that's another century altogether!

If Lizzie had that taint of the autocratic as a holdover from her growing-up years, and still lived that way into the 1900's, then it should be easier for people to understand the generation that Andrew came from formed him as well.

Yup they would definately have to have it in there hearts to teach with all those rules.
As for having single girls to be servants, it was probably, as it is today, to have them like that so you didn't, and don't, have to worry about the "I can't make it in because of a sick child" or a husband being sick. They'd probably be more loyal in that respect, they don't have any outside responsiblities.

Many single women/men have PLENTY of "outside" responsibilities. Animlas to take care of, family obligations, church duties...etc..





Tracy...

DWilly @ Sat Dec 23, 2006 11:33 am wrote:To give an idea of how people during Lizzie's time viewed things here are some rules for teachers in 1872. This, to me, gives us an idea of where Lizzie got some of her attitudes from:

Rules for Teachers 1872
Teachers each day will fill lamps, clean chimneys.

Each Teacher will bring a bucket of water and a scuttle of coal for the days session.

Make your pens carefully. You may whittle nibs to the individual taste of the pupils.

Men Teachers may take one evening each for courting purposes or two evenings a week if they go to church regularly.

After ten hours in school, the Teachers may spend the remaining time reading the Bible or other good books.

Women Teachers who marry, or engage in unseemly conduct will be dismissed.
Every Teacher should lay aside from each pay, a goodly sum of his earnings for his benefit during his declining years so that he will not be a burden on society.

Any Teacher who smokes, used liquor in any form, frequents pool or public halls or gets shaved in a barbers shop will give any good reason to support his worth, intention, integrity and honesty.

First, a teacher could delegate these tasks, and did so.
Second, I don't see female teachers getting shaved in a barber shop!?
Lastly, they have to catch you doing this. Wasn't alcohol the secret ingredient of most patent medicines of those days? What about snuff?

I wonder about the origin and provenance of those 'rules'?

RayS @ Tue Dec 26, 2006 2:19 pm wrote:

DWilly @ Sat Dec 23, 2006 11:33 am wrote:To give an idea of how people during Lizzie's time viewed things here are some rules for teachers in 1872. This, to me, gives us an idea of where Lizzie got some of her attitudes from:

Rules for Teachers 1872
Teachers each day will fill lamps, clean chimneys.

Each Teacher will bring a bucket of water and a scuttle of coal for the days session.

Make your pens carefully. You may whittle nibs to the individual taste of the pupils.

Men Teachers may take one evening each for courting purposes or two evenings a week if they go to church regularly.

After ten hours in school, the Teachers may spend the remaining time reading the Bible or other good books.

Women Teachers who marry, or engage in unseemly conduct will be dismissed.
Every Teacher should lay aside from each pay, a goodly sum of his earnings for his benefit during his declining years so that he will not be a burden on society.

Any Teacher who smokes, used liquor in any form, frequents pool or public halls or gets shaved in a barbers shop will give any good reason to support his worth, intention, integrity and honesty.

Second, I don't see female teachers getting shaved in a barber shop!??

I'm pretty sure they were referring to male teachers not female teachers. They did have men teachers and in the rules they also mention men. Still, I can't understand what was so bad about a guy going to a barber shop. Didn't Andrew go to one to get a good shave?

Barber Shops in the past were male preserves with the kind of language and stories you could find that were not suitable for polite mixed company.
Smoking and possibly drinking also. Selling lottery tickets?

I'm old enough to remember that, even though they changed in the 1960s or 1970s. Your results may vary.

SO what can you say about "beauty shops" for female conversation? Gossip and scandals? "Did you hear about ...?"

PS
Would they even hire a teacher who was not a Church goer?
There were no unions in those days, or the other civil rights now taken for granted.

RayS @ Fri Dec 22, 2006 3:59 pm wrote:

DWilly @ Fri Dec 22, 2006 3:48 pm wrote:

Kat @ Fri Dec 22, 2006 3:35 pm wrote:...Later on, as Lizbeth, she seemed very friendly with her servants but expected them to remain unmarried.
I'm not sure that, altho some believe her to be pretty democratic in her approach to people, that only employing single people seems a bit autocratic to me.

Was that a rule that applied to all of her servants or only the female ones? I thought Ernest Terry was married.

I think Lizzie only wanting single women may have been a common attitude back then. Most people in her era thought that once a woman got married she should no longer work. I recall reading that most female school teachers had to quit teaching once they got married.

Maybe its the same reason that expells pregnant girls from high school.
If they still do that today.

If they tried to expel a pregnant or married girl from school today, the school system would be faced with a HUGE lawsuit. When my mother was a young Registered Nurse back in the 1950's, if you got pregnant, you were immediately dismissed from your job, even though you were married. Although when she started Nursing School in 1948, if you got married you had to leave school. The thinking was that a woman could not study to be a nurse AND take care of her husband and manage her house. The rules were loosened a bit in the early 1950's, but you still were dismissed if you got pregnant...obviously you could not work AND care for your baby AND husband AND house!!!!

Sadly, now you see 13 and 14 year olds in school these days who are pregnant...