Lizzie Borden Society Forum

I've heard the question raised many times of why Abby set Bridget to washing the windows on a warm morning, knowing she had been sick. Bridget apparently, from all accounts, thought highly of Mrs. Borden and did not characterize her as someone who asked anything unreasonable of her. Bridget seems to have had a pretty good situation, as far as domestic service went. So it seems out of character for Abby to have disregarded Bridget's mild illness and sent her outside to do windows. It seems everyone was trying to get rid of Bridget that morning.

IF Abby, Andrew and Uncle John were all set to cart Lizzie off to an institution that day, it makes sense that Abby would be getting very apprehensive about the situation. Andrew was trying to go about his normal daily routine so Lizzie would not be suspicious, and Uncle John had made himself scarce until noon, when he was due to return.

That left Abby alone in the house with Lizzie. She had probably been reassured by Andrew and Uncle John that Lizzie didn't suspect anything. Abby may not have been so sure, though. She may have felt that Lizzie most certainly DID suspect something was amiss.

Abby may have had that "not in front of the servants" mentality, and feared that she and Lizzie may have problems that morning. Sending Bridget outside for the morning may have been her way of preventing Bridget from witnessing any unpleasantness between she and Lizzie. Obviously Abby, nor anyone else, ever suspected that Lizzie would commit murder.

I have also always wondered the same thing,why send Bridget to do windows on a warm day when she wasn't feeling good.
I think that is a good theory, that to get Bridget out of the way so she wouldn't see anything unpleasent, if the case was that they were going to cart Lizzie off.

Maybe that would be the reason for killing abby. Lizzie found out what was going to happen. If both parents are out of the way, she not going to the institution. I don't think Uncle John would have followed thru by himself, putting her in the institution.

That does sound plausible, but once again, it would had to have been one of the best kept secrets of all time, for it to have never been mentioned anywhere or anytime by anyone. It
s a well known fact that husbands talk to wives, friiends talk to friends, Doctors talk to nurses, etc. and for all of them to have kept their silence is practically a miracle........and what did Lizzie do that was the final straw for Andrew to come to that kind of a solution?

Wasn't Thursday Bridget's half day off? Why not just wait until after lunch if they wanted her out of the way?

If there was any truth to Lizzie being put in an institution, wouldnt there have been other people aware of it. Like the doctors and nurses that would be admitting her and this information would have come out at the trial.

If Thursday was Bridget's usual afternoon off, maybe Abby thought Bridget could at least try to wash the windows. She could spend the afternoon resting.

Wouldn't an institution be aware of plans for a new patient? I would think they would come forward with the information through the course of events, especially if they thought the prospective patient was potentially capable of murder.

Surely yes, Yoop!

As soon as The Fall River Home for the Potentially Unhinged heard about the arrest they'd have come forward and spilled.

How did this piece of conjecture get started? And why wouldn't Emma be there to calm Lizzie and to help out?

I mean, it's good fiction, but that's all it is.

Bob Gutowski @ Thu Jan 18, 2007 3:43 pm wrote:Surely yes, Yoop!

As soon as The Fall River Home for the Potentially Unhinged heard about the arrest they'd have come forward and spilled.

How did this piece of conjecture get started? And why wouldn't Emma be there to calm Lizzie and to help out?

I mean, it's good fiction, but that's all it is.

(chuckle)...it was an idea of mine. I outline it in the Mental Illness topic. Purely speculation on my part...another of the what ifs....

Do you think the letter Uncle John HAD to mail that night/next day had something to do with asking for silence on the part of the doctors?

My best guess is that an institution would consider Andrew their client, he would be the one paying them. They might not know who Uncle John is. Anyway, that would be a lot to ask of the institution under the circumstances. They wouldn't know if their silence might help lead to subsequent murders. From their point of view, they're allowing an unstable person to remain unconfined on the say-so of someone they're probably unfamiliar with.

Didn't someone say before that Thursday was the usual window washing day?

If they normally kept windows open in August (as per Arnold Brown), then maybe the window washing was a way to put the windows down (for privacy) without raising questions from the neighbors.

Anyone who would have a heated argument knows windows should be closed.

PS
One authentic part of Arnold Brown's book was telling how the Borden Sisters put iron bars on all the cellar windows. I've seen this in my neighborhood after a break-in. Obviously they were afraid of something or somebody.

Anyone know if Second Street was paved or cobblestones at that time, or was it a dirt road? Having spent a year living in a house on a dirt road when I was a kid, I can remember how dusty the windows got on a weekly basis from the small amount of traffic that went by. Very possible that Thursday WAS the regular window washing day, and there was nothing really significant in Abby wanting them washed.

SallyG, there was a recent discussion of Second Street on this thread:

viewtopic.php?t=2544&highlight=macadamized

It was a heavily trafficked road with several stables on it.

Bridget testified at the Preliminary hearing about the windows, page 10:

"Q. When you saw Mrs. Borden, where did you see her?
A. In the dining room, dusting. She wanted to know if I had anything particular to do that day. I told her no. Did she want anything? Yes, she said she wanted the windows washed. I asked her how. She said on both sides, inside and outside; they were very dirty.
Q. Did you have any usual time to wash the windows?
A. No Sir.
Q. How often did you use to wash them?
A. Sometimes once a month, and probably twice a month."

Makes one wonder if the second floor windows were ever washed. And by who as Bridget said she had no duties on the second floor.

Someone, either Bridget or Mrs. Churchill, testified that Thursday was window washing day for the Bordens. Abby was expecting guests on the Monday following the murders. She may have planned to give the house more than the usual attention over the weekend, so getting the window washing out of the way may have had more importance than usual.

The road likely had a macadam surface, Uncle John thought so in testimony. This would make it less dusty than a dirt road but somewhat more dusty than a paved road.

That's interesting, the difference between Mrs. Churchill's and Bridget's testimony of how often and when Bridget washed the windows.

Mrs. Churchill in her testimony at the Inquest said:

"Q. Do you remember how long before that time she had been out washing the windows, whether that same week, or the week before?
A. I dont think she washed windows but once a week, and Thursday was generally the day.
Q. It was the habit to wash the windows once a week?
A. She generally did."

Bridget said she had no regular schedule and did them once or twice a month.

Not a big problem but just another unexplained Bridget thing.

That is odd, if Thursday was Bridget's afternoon off and if windows were washed on Thursday we might assume she would make the correlation. She certainly knew when the wash was done.

Yooper @ Fri Jan 19, 2007 12:17 am wrote:Someone, either Bridget or Mrs. Churchill, testified that Thursday was window washing day for the Bordens. Abby was expecting guests on the Monday following the murders. She may have planned to give the house more than the usual attention over the weekend, so getting the window washing out of the way may have had more importance than usual.

The road likely had a macadam surface, Uncle John thought so in testimony. This would make it less dusty than a dirt road but somewhat more dusty than a paved road.

Even if the surface was metalled (the older term) the constant exhaust from the horses would bespatter the road surfaces. Rain would make mud, liquified manure. The Good Old Days? NOT!

The important thing is that the heavy traffic, clip-clop of horses, rattle and creak of wagons, etc would cover up noise from inside w/ windows open.
IMO, I wasn't there. I barely remember the horse-drawn wagon of my youth.

I read in the History of Fall River that is online at Keeley Library. That the roads were sprinkled with watering carts to keep the dust down.

Sprinkling
In the days of dirt roads, because of the nature of the soil on the graniti c
base, only a few hours lapsed between mud and dust . The strong spring
and summer westerly winds drove clouds of dust up the hillside causin g
much annoyance to storekeepers and housewives .
80
THE PHILLIPS HISTORY OF FALL RIVER
The town in 1848 spent eight dollars for "Watering streets around
Market". Street watering was clone on a larger scale in 1851, when Rober t
Cook was paid $425 and the Fall River Iron Works Company $175 .
Sprinkling carts were indispensable until the streets were oiled or surface d
with bound macadam. When city water became available, standpipe s
were located where the watering carts could be conveniently refilled bu t
before that time it was necessary to pump the water from cisterns or th e
stream. Sprinkling was often clone by contract . In 1860, Dwelly and
Freelove were paid $697 and the Fall River Laundry, $130. In 1899 the
city used nearly 39,000,000 gallons of water at a cost of approximatel y
$10,000 but it was impossible to properly lay the dust on the 130 miles o f
city streets . In 1901, the work was supplemented by the use of trolley car s
equipped for sprinkling. Full freedom from dust was enjoyed along the
twenty-three miles of trackage. In 1912, a five year contract was made
with the Worcester Car Sprinkling Company to continue the work. About
this time the city had been experimenting with oil and residents were paying
a Providence concern to oil the streets adjoining their property

They use water trucks currently on large construction projects and road building to keep the dust minimized. On a dry, windy day it can be a real problem.

Yooper @ Thu Jan 18, 2007 11:17 pm wrote:Someone, either Bridget or Mrs. Churchill, testified that Thursday was window washing day for the Bordens. Abby was expecting guests on the Monday following the murders. She may have planned to give the house more than the usual attention over the weekend, so getting the window washing out of the way may have had more importance than usual.

The road likely had a macadam surface, Uncle John thought so in testimony. This would make it less dusty than a dirt road but somewhat more dusty than a paved road.

I have a problem with the notion that Abby was expecting guests on Monday. Nobody ever came forward to say they were the unidentified guests. I think that was just another Lizzie lie. They already had a guest in Uncle John, so maybe Lizzie was referring to him when she said that. And why would Abby be worried about the room on Thursday if the guests were to arrive on Monday? I guess she thought Uncle John would not be returning to spend the night again? Also, didn't Lizzie and Emma testify that the guest room was their responsibility? Why was Abby in there in the first place? Did Lizzie refuse to clean the room and Abby was forced to?

Yes- we all wonder who those prospective guests were indeed. It did seem like Abby had company when the girls were gone, and vice versa.

Oh, Sally, I still think you have a good theory. I rather think it had not escalated to the point of the required 2 doctors coming in to evaluate her yet. I rather think it may have been Wednesday night something was said in the sitting room. Lizzie comes in about 9: 15 p.m. from Alice's and goes right up the stairs without saying a word to any of them, even with the door open and the sofa in full view! This may have prompted John to ask what was wrong with the girl. Then Abby and Andrew could have spilled their thoughts on the break-in, day to day unhappiness, her bizarre shoplifting, cruelty to Abby, etc. and what on earth were they to do with her?
John might have said he had an idea what HE would do with her! She wasn't quite right in the head- never had been, etc. She should be sent away for a spell and have her head examined.....and of course, Lizzie may have heard the whole thing unfold.

Smudgeman @ Fri Jan 19, 2007 7:09 pm wrote:

Yooper @ Thu Jan 18, 2007 11:17 pm wrote:Someone, either Bridget or Mrs. Churchill, testified that Thursday was window washing day for the Bordens. Abby was expecting guests on the Monday following the murders. She may have planned to give the house more than the usual attention over the weekend, so getting the window washing out of the way may have had more importance than usual.

The road likely had a macadam surface, Uncle John thought so in testimony. This would make it less dusty than a dirt road but somewhat more dusty than a paved road.

I have a problem with the notion that Abby was expecting guests on Monday. Nobody ever came forward to say they were the unidentified guests. I think that was just another Lizzie lie. They already had a guest in Uncle John, so maybe Lizzie was referring to him when she said that. And why would Abby be worried about the room on Thursday if the guests were to arrive on Monday? I guess she thought Uncle John would not be returning to spend the night again? Also, didn't Lizzie and Emma testify that the guest room was their responsibility? Why was Abby in there in the first place? Did Lizzie refuse to clean the room and Abby was forced to?

Abby may have considered a visit from Uncle John to be more her responsibility than Lizzie's, or maybe she knew Lizzie wouldn't do it for some reason. Lizzie had almost pointedly avoided Uncle John since his arrival. I had gotten the idea that Uncle John planned to leave for home sometime that day and Andrew invited him to lunch at the last minute, Abby might have been aware of his plans.

Shelley @ Fri Jan 19, 2007 6:22 pm wrote:Yes- we all wonder who those prospective guests were indeed. It did seem like Abby had company when the girls were gone, and vice versa.

Oh, Sally, I still think you have a good theory. I rather think it had not escalated to the point of the required 2 doctors coming in to evaluate her yet. I rather think it may have been Wednesday night something was said in the sitting room. Lizzie comes in about 9: 15 p.m. from Alice's and goes right up the stairs without saying a word to any of them, even with the door open and the sofa in full view! This may have prompted John to ask what was wrong with the girl. Then Abby and Andrew could have spilled their thoughts on the break-in, day to day unhappiness, her bizarre shoplifting, cruelty to Abby, etc. and what on earth were they to do with her?
John might have said he had an idea what HE would do with her! She wasn't quite right in the head- never had been, etc. She should be sent away for a spell and have her head examined.....and of course, Lizzie may have heard the whole thing unfold.

Except Lizzie seems to be putting the "wheels in motion" before this evening conversation took place - i.e. the conversation with Alice. She's setting things up to prepare for the act(s) to follow. But that's not to say she didn't hear or suspect something before that evening's conversation. It just seems to me that Lizzie was already putting some plan into motion before coming home that evening and perhaps overhearing something that would have made her committ the acts of the next day.

Many have surmised it was that mysterious conversation between Abby, Andrew, and John which was the trigger for Lizzie to murder Andrew and Abby the following day, but I'm saying that Lizzie had made up her mind PRIOR to that conversation that something terrible was going to have to happen, and her visit to Alice is strong evidence of that, to me.

sguthmann @ Sat Jan 20, 2007 12:16 am wrote:

Shelley @ Fri Jan 19, 2007 6:22 pm wrote:Yes- we all wonder who those prospective guests were indeed. It did seem like Abby had company when the girls were gone, and vice versa.

Oh, Sally, I still think you have a good theory. I rather think it had not escalated to the point of the required 2 doctors coming in to evaluate her yet. I rather think it may have been Wednesday night something was said in the sitting room. Lizzie comes in about 9: 15 p.m. from Alice's and goes right up the stairs without saying a word to any of them, even with the door open and the sofa in full view! This may have prompted John to ask what was wrong with the girl. Then Abby and Andrew could have spilled their thoughts on the break-in, day to day unhappiness, her bizarre shoplifting, cruelty to Abby, etc. and what on earth were they to do with her?
John might have said he had an idea what HE would do with her! She wasn't quite right in the head- never had been, etc. She should be sent away for a spell and have her head examined.....and of course, Lizzie may have heard the whole thing unfold.

Except Lizzie seems to be putting the "wheels in motion" before this evening conversation took place - i.e. the conversation with Alice. She's setting things up to prepare for the act(s) to follow. But that's not to say she didn't hear or suspect something before that evening's conversation. It just seems to me that Lizzie was already putting some plan into motion before coming home that evening and perhaps overhearing something that would have made her committ the acts of the next day.

Many have surmised it was that mysterious conversation between Abby, Andrew, and John which was the trigger for Lizzie to murder Andrew and Abby the following day, but I'm saying that Lizzie had made up her mind PRIOR to that conversation that something terrible was going to have to happen, and her visit to Alice is strong evidence of that, to me.

I agree, I think the murders stem from Abby's visit to Dr. Bowen Wednesday morning. I think this lent some immediacy to the event.

The focus of the murders probably would have been Andrew if Lizzie suspected she would be confined, it would be difficult to accomplish without his compliance, and she would feel infinitely more betrayed by Andrew than anyone else with Emma away. If she killed Andrew there would be no more legal or familial relationship to Abby. It would probably take Uncle John and Emma to have her committed at that point, assuming it took two family members to do so.

bobarth @ Thu Jan 18, 2007 3:27 pm wrote:Wasn't Thursday Bridget's half day off? Why not just wait until after lunch if they wanted her out of the way?

If there was any truth to Lizzie being put in an institution, wouldnt there have been other people aware of it. Like the doctors and nurses that would be admitting her and this information would have come out at the trial.

Maybe there were doctors and nurses that knew about it, but maybe for the privacy of the family, they might have wanted to keep it quiet. I mean, back then, mental illness wasn't accepted real well. And then, too, given the fact that Andy was an upstanding citzen and one of the wealtheist, maybe they didn't want this to be front page news.

That's right Shelley! Thanks for the reminder that family guests usually seemed to come and stay when the other part of the family was away! Good point.

Actually that does go to support that Abbie was expecting visitors Monday- because Lizzie has said she would be going to Marion after the Sunday roll call, Monday.

Inquest
Lizzie
56(13)
Q. Why did you not go to Marion with the party that went?
A. Because they went sooner than I could, and I was going Monday.
Q. Why did they go sooner than you could; what was there to keep you?
A. I had taken the secretaryship and treasurer of our C. E. society, had the charge, and the roll call was the first Sunday in August, and I felt I must be there and attend to that part of the business.
-------

63(20)
Q. Did she say anything about making the bed?
A. She said she had been up and made the bed up fresh, and had dusted the room and left it all in order. She was going to put some fresh pillow slips on the small pillows at the foot of the bed, and was going to close the room, because she was going to have company Monday and she wanted everything in order.

--I have usually thought it was the Fish side of Abbie's family. They were in or near town the day of the murders, according to the newspaper. I had thought they were staying locally and Monday would be Abbie's turn to hostess the visitors.

BTW: Mary Doolan was also out washing windows that Thursday morning. Maybe that was the day to wash windows- before the weekend- when most guests might be expected?

Here are The Fish, in the FRGlobe, from Terence Duniho's collection. I underlined in pencil the part about Fish already visiting near Fall River.

I find it odd that Mr. Fish states in the article that the girls had "all the money they could spend and went to Europe whenever they wanted to go." and that "no one made any money out of it, nor could they in any way by murdering the couple." Kind of makes you wonder where they were getting their information.

I think Grampa Fish might have gotten into trouble with his family after those remarks appeared in the paper! I picture them coming home and saying something like *We just can't leave you alone- can we?*

This is from The Terence Duniho Collection: