Lizzie Borden Society Forum

Just wonder if Lizzie had a library card and if there were any records of what she may have checked out? I know the Warren commission checked on Lee Harvey Oswalds library check outs and just wondered if anyone had done the same with Lizzie?

Did Fall River have a lending library back then? Andrew Carnegie died in 1919, but I don't know if he started funding libraries as early as 1892 or earlier. Libraries may not have been as common then as they are now.

I was on the Fall River Public Library site and it said that it was founded in 1861. I just have a hunch that since Lizzie was a reader she may have had a library card and it would be mighty interesting to me what she checked out, if indeed she utilized the library.

Yes, it would be interesting to see what she read, if she did check out books. Is there a way to find out, or do the records of what was lended go back that far. You know, sometimes they do get rid of very old stuff.

I just sent an email to the reference librarian at Fall River so as soon as I receive an answer, I will let you know. I am very anxious to see if they have anything on her at all too!!!!

There's a photo of Lizzie's card in the Virtual Library:

http://lizzieandrewborden.com/lizartifa ... rycard.jpg

Harry you are one awesome dude!!!!!

THANK YOU!!!!

bobarth @ Fri Jan 19, 2007 4:02 pm wrote:I just sent an email to the reference librarian at Fall River so as soon as I receive an answer, I will let you know. I am very anxious to see if they have anything on her at all too!!!!

We must be thinking on the same lines bobarth!! I just sent a question to the reference librarian too! I want to know what she read.

snokkums

I can just hear the reference librarian now....

"Those Crazy Lizzie people are emailing me again!!!!!"

Yea, me too. She probably gets a kick out of us!!

Very quick reply from the library.

They don't keep records of past patrons or items they may have checked out; they are committed to protecting the privacy of their library users.

But I was invited to schedule a tour of their special collections area that is not normally open to the public. I definitely want to do that when I am out there in April.

bobarth @ Fri Jan 19, 2007 4:46 pm wrote:Very quick reply from the library.

They don't keep records of past patrons or items they may have checked out; they are committed to protecting the privacy of their library users.

But I was invited to schedule a tour of their special collections area that is not normally open to the public. I definitely want to do that when I am out there in April.

Please go through the tour and let us know. Should be interesting to see.

OK snokkums
I will take notes and report back!!!!

Oh, definitely see the library. The interior is beautiful. Here's a postcard and a photo. Paintings by local artists were on the walls on the landing in the photo when we were there last August.

They keep the good stuff (archives) in a locked room and they escort you there.

Oh my that is a beautiful library.
Yes I definitely need to go see that beautiful building.
Thanks for the pictures I had no idea how gorgeous it was.

I think it has been totally against the law for a Library to release a list of Patrons book check-outs. I don't think the Warren Commision would even have gotten that Liberty over-ruled- not even with a warrant.

However, nowadays, under The Patriot Act, I do think there is a chance of invading that privacy, but it's best to ask your Librarian. They certainly would know the answer to that! The older more experienced Librarians can explain the law.

bobarth @ Fri Jan 19, 2007 5:46 pm wrote:Very quick reply from the library.

They don't keep records of past patrons or items they may have checked out; they are committed to protecting the privacy of their library users.

But I was invited to schedule a tour of their special collections area that is not normally open to the public. I definitely want to do that when I am out there in April.

My understanding is that is was quite common from the 1940s for Authorized Agencies to get this information.
Before numbered library cards, people signed for them.
One person assigned to Las Alamos looked it up in the library. He found that all the people who had taken out this book had disappeared from Univ of Chicago! (This was a book by Richard Feynman.)

Kat @ Sun Jan 21, 2007 3:54 am wrote:I think it has been totally against the law for a Library to release a list of Patrons book check-outs. I don't think the Warren Commision would even have gotten that Liberty over-ruled- not even with a warrant.

However, nowadays, under The Patriot Act, I do think there is a chance of invading that privacy, but it's best to ask your Librarian. They certainly would know the answer to that! The older more experienced Librarians can explain the law.

The perversely named "Patriot Act" forbids anyone to tell when their library readings have been examined by the Heimat Sicherheitdienst.
(MY name, using the original German.)

You do know that your tax information is available to anyone at the Tax Office? That is one way to see if somebody is getting a sweetheart deal.

Arnold Brown mentions how many of the rich and powerful sold their property for "$1 and goodwill". This "true value" let them pay minimal taxes!!! Its in his book, don't know of the page number. Beginning pages.

They don't keep records of past patrons or items they may have checked out; they are committed to protecting the privacy of their library users

Hmm, but if someone decide to make a professional study about reading habits among ladies in Fall River, during the year of so and so...(at least 70 years back in time) - there should be no problem getting access to files. But I really doubt they've saved any from that time...

Does anyone know?

A Library could not help you with that.
I can't think of any Library that could.

Maybe informal reading groups in the area who had meetings might be more forthcoming, and might have some record of what the group studied or discussed?

bobarth @ Fri Jan 19, 2007 3:52 pm wrote:Just wonder if Lizzie had a library card and if there were any records of what she may have checked out? I know the Warren commission checked on Lee Harvey Oswalds library check outs and just wondered if anyone had done the same with Lizzie?

I once read somewhere that Lee H. Oswald did have a library card on him - it was David Ferrie's!!! What's the connection?
Why would he use someone else's card?

You get a library card once you have a driver's license or a utility bill to show residence in the city. Then you can get books from other libraries in the county that honor that card. Your results may vary.

bobarth @ Fri Jan 19, 2007 6:41 pm wrote:Oh my that is a beautiful library.
Yes I definitely need to go see that beautiful building.
Thanks for the pictures I had no idea how gorgeous it was.

Was it a copy of a Venetian Palace? There was a style in copying Venetian buildings in the late 19th century (Venice was the financial center of Lombardy, equivalent to New York City today).

Kat @ Sun Jan 21, 2007 3:54 am wrote:I think it has been totally against the law for a Library to release a list of Patrons book check-outs. I don't think the Warren Commision would even have gotten that Liberty over-ruled- not even with a warrant.

However, nowadays, under The Patriot Act, I do think there is a chance of invading that privacy, but it's best to ask your Librarian. They certainly would know the answer to that! The older more experienced Librarians can explain the law.

I believe you are mistaken. I can't quote anything, but a court order or search warrant would allow the state or federal police to investigate.
Just like they can search your home if they reasonable grounds or probable cause. You do know than an anonymous phone call can set this off?

PS You've heard of spoofing of "bombing"? Somebody calls up the local police (from out of state) and claims they are being attacked by a gunman who has just shot someone. They will investigate, there are too many problems if they do nothing.
There was a case in the county where someone called up and said they were being held hostage in their own home. SWAT team, plenty of police answered this hoax call. Caller Ident led to the capture of the hoaxer.

RayS @ Wed Mar 07, 2007 11:24 am wrote:

bobarth @ Fri Jan 19, 2007 3:52 pm wrote:Just wonder if Lizzie had a library card and if there were any records of what she may have checked out? I know the Warren commission checked on Lee Harvey Oswalds library check outs and just wondered if anyone had done the same with Lizzie?

I once read somewhere that Lee H. Oswald did have a library card on him - it was David Ferrie's!!! What's the connection?
Why would he use someone else's card?

You get a library card once you have a driver's license or a utility bill to show residence in the city. Then you can get books from other libraries in the county that honor that card. Your results may vary.

Yup that is what I remember and also that the last book checked out and never returned was one of the George Orwell books. I think it was Animal Farm, either that or 1984. Another interesting thing about Lee Harvey Oswald is witness's said that he was a lousy shot and that he always got "Maggies Drawers" out on the shooting range. Which is missing the target altogether and they would wave these to let the shooter know he had missed the target. I would like to know how that term got to be popular as to why it was called "Maggie's"?

Bet you a nickle Ray. Proove it wrong and please cite your source, quote and page #.
I've talked to Librarians and have had Librarians practically in my family and they are adamant about privacy and the law, before The Patriot Act.

I would need some proof, or maybe the Orwell book story is an anecdote? Let's get some reseach here.

Librarians today never give out information about a single customer's reading habits, that's for sure. However, library cards or information about who has borrowed a certain book on a certain time 70-100 years back in time, I can't see why there should be any legal restrictions getting that kind of personal information at all.

Kat @ Wed Mar 07, 2007 6:37 pm wrote:Bet you a nickle Ray. Proove it wrong and please cite your source, quote and page #.
I've talked to Librarians and have had Librarians practically in my family and they are adamant about privacy and the law, before The Patriot Act.

I would need some proof, or maybe the Orwell book story is an anecdote? Let's get some reseach here.

Hundreds of books have been written about the JFK unsolved murder. I've read at least a score over the years, varying quality of course.
I can assure you as sure as water boils or freezes (according to temperature) that a court order must be obeyed.
In the JFK murder, I'm sure that any librarian would be happy to aid in the investigation. Just like that mail order firm in Chicago that sold a rifle to Lee Hiddell!
When the FBI asked then, few would turn them down.

I wonder how you can justify your skepticism? After reading many books over the last 40 years on JFK, the relatively simple case of the Bordens is just that: simpler to solve.

Here is my proof, based as a practical matter. Sometimes when I get books my favorite librarian will suggest putting them in a bag, so no observer can note what I'm taking out. Even when its not raining.
I know I'm under surveillance (for various reasons).
Even paranoids have real enemies.
Not that I'm paranoid, but I've seen cars following me. Hint: make a U-turn on the way somewhere and see what the car behind you does.
I did this once to stop at a garage sale. The car that was following me (I was unaware of it) also made a U-turn and then went back where I came from. SOP to break off shadowing if a suspect becomes aware of being followed.

Have I been reading too many detective stories? Maybe, but you can learn from them. Dashiell Hammett of course.

nishmat @ Thu Mar 08, 2007 12:18 pm wrote:Librarians today never give out information about a single customer's reading habits, that's for sure. However, library cards or information about who has borrowed a certain book on a certain time 70-100 years back in time, I can't see why there should be any legal restrictions getting that kind of personal information at all.

Libraries contain books, not outdated records.
When they went to an electronic system about 10 years ago I'm sure that all the old records were discarded.

Here's how the old paper system worked. When you checked out a book the record in the pocket was stamped with your number and placed in a file. When you returned the book the card was put back in. All you had to do is to look at this card to get the number or name. Those known to the library could merely sign their name. The number could be obtained by the well-known detective methods.
"Authorized persons" always can obtain information.

An ordinary person who saw a person take out a book can later borrow that same book and get the person's number (according to date).

bobarth @ Wed Mar 07, 2007 3:29 pm wrote:...
I once read somewhere that Lee H. Oswald did have a library card on him - it was David Ferrie's!!! What's the connection?
Why would he use someone else's card?

You get a library card once you have a driver's license or a utility bill to show residence in the city. Then you can get books from other libraries in the county that honor that card. Your results may vary.

Yup that is what I remember and also that the last book checked out and never returned was one of the George Orwell books. I think it was Animal Farm, either that or 1984. Another interesting thing about Lee Harvey Oswald is witness's said that he was a lousy shot and that he always got "Maggies Drawers" out on the shooting range. Which is missing the target altogether and they would wave these to let the shooter know he had missed the target. I would like to know how that term got to be popular as to why it was called "Maggie's"?[/quote]
A red flag was waved to indicate a total miss of the target. You can guess the vulgar connotations.

How about: The place where they kept the books in Fall River burned down? That might be how a copy of Lizzie's Library card got out. Those cards themselves are even sacrosanct.
Maybe they can get info like that in Sweden but not here. Sorry.

Here is the FRPL phone #- let us know what you find out:
508- 324- 2700
Or you can submit an e-mil querry. It should be interesting to hear the answer.
http://www.sailsinc.org/fallriver/bigpage.htm

Librarians today never give out information about a single customer's reading habits, that's for sure. However, library cards or information about who has borrowed a certain book on a certain time 70-100 years back in time, I can't see why there should be any legal restrictions getting that kind of personal information at all.

--nishmat

RayS @ Thu Mar 08, 2007 1:12 pm wrote: I know I'm under surveillance (for various reasons).
Not that I'm paranoid, but I've seen cars following me. Hint: make a U-turn on the way somewhere and see what the car behind you does.
I did this once to stop at a garage sale. The car that was following me (I was unaware of it) also made a U-turn and then went back where I came from. SOP to break off shadowing if a suspect becomes aware of being followed..

Whew! Well, that certainly clears quite a few things up. :shaking2:

No, Ray- you're not paranoid. Actually, that's Audrey who's been following you around and furtively checking the books you've been reading.

Sorry, guys- it was just too good to pass up. I'll be quiet now.

Many years ago I joined an organization that was circulating petitions to get an independent on the ballot. I got enough signatures to fill my quota.

Ever been involved in a primary vote?

If you've ever been involved in politics in a small town, you'd know how some people have long memories.

Of course, there can be other reasons for being followed.
Just remember there are laws against stalking, assuming you were able to identify me and my location.

PS FYI - http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20070309/ap_ ... ty_letters

Harry @ Fri Jan 19, 2007 5:06 pm wrote:There's a photo of Lizzie's card in the Virtual Library:

http://lizzieandrewborden.com/lizartifa ... rycard.jpg

My comments are that it looks like a copy, not the original. Questioned Document Examiners prefer the original.
I suggest it is a faked forgery. It may look like Lizzie's signature (copied from somewhere), but when she lived on French St her father and mother were both deceased. Listing names suggest they were alive. Note no occupation given.

Note the 'e' in her parents names differs from the 'e' in her name & address.

Here is the FRPL phone #- let us know what you find out:
508- 324- 2700
Or you can submit an e-mil querry. It should be interesting to hear the answer.
http://www.sailsinc.org/fallriver/bigpage.htm

Thanks, Kat...
yes, maybe I will get in contact with them.

edit:

By the way, anyone know if Lizzie had some sort of valuable book collections in her book shelfs at Maplecroft?