Lizzie Borden Society Forum

From the book "Trial of Lizzie Borden" by pearson,

"It has been the custom to paint Mr. Borden as Old Scrooge; as a tight fisted tyrannical miser. He and his family did not live in a hovel; the three able bodied women o fhis husehold were assisted by one maid servant- if only one; and she, in turn, was occaisonally relieved of the heavier work by a hewer of wood and a carrier of burdens. Mr. Borden, at one time, had kept a horse and buggy- the contemporary equivalent of a ford car- and he had presented at one of his daughters (the younger one) with a diamond ring and a sealskin coat or a cape. Moreover she had been able to take a long holiday in Europe."


Seems to me that Lizzie didn't have it that bad, but most of the accounts that I have read she seemed to want more, like living up on the hill. Or it was such a hard ship that they kerosene lamps instead of electricty. Seems Mr. Borden did spluge on her once in awhile. I mean I'd love a trip to Europe. So what was she complaining about? Some people had it worse off than she did.

The theme at the time seemed to be; if you got it---flaunt it! Many wealthy people took no pains to hide their wealth, especially the nouveau riche, the newly rich. Lizzie seemed to display that attitude.

Yes, I think LIzzie wanted to flaunt the money too. But Andy didn't want to. But she still was alot better off than alot of people. I mean, she didn't have to work, she had an allowance, probably more than what my pay check is.

I agree, her basic needs were met and she had other advantages many people were lacking. Sometimes I wonder if Lizzie had inherited Andrew's drive. Not so much with money as the focus, but perhaps lifestyle. Andrew had the outlet of going out in the business world and making more money, but Lizzie could only sit home and stew about it, she had no outlet.

I think you are right. She had no outlet. I think Andrew could have made her go do some work or something so she wouldn't have anything to stew about. And I think she would have appreicated the money more.

snokkums @ Sun Jan 21, 2007 9:54 am wrote:From the book "Trial of Lizzie Borden" by pearson,

"It has been the custom to paint Mr. Borden as Old Scrooge; as a tight fisted tyrannical miser. He and his family did not live in a hovel; the three able bodied women o fhis husehold were assisted by one maid servant- if only one; and she, in turn, was occaisonally relieved of the heavier work by a hewer of wood and a carrier of burdens. Mr. Borden, at one time, had kept a horse and buggy- the contemporary equivalent of a ford car- and he had presented at one of his daughters (the younger one) with a diamond ring and a sealskin coat or a cape. Moreover she had been able to take a long holiday in Europe."

Seems to me that Lizzie didn't have it that bad, but most of the accounts that I have read she seemed to want more, like living up on the hill. Or it was such a hard ship that they kerosene lamps instead of electricty. Seems Mr. Borden did spluge on her once in awhile. I mean I'd love a trip to Europe. So what was she complaining about? Some people had it worse off than she did.

SO, she did have a "sealskin cape"!!!

I believe Pearson is wrong again. Lighting with gas was the in thing in those days. Correct me if I'm wrong, please.

You are overlooking the most basic thing of all: Lizzie was unmarried and could never be considered an equal to the matrons of her society.
Or is it different in those days?

Actually, by Lizzie's own word, she has multiple sealskin sacks; a sack is a woman's full, loose, hiplength jacket.

Lizzie's Inquest, page 91:

Q. Have you sealskin sacks?
A. Yes, sir.

Q. Where are they?
A. Hanging in a large white bag in the attic, each one seperate.

Q. Put away for the summer?
A. Yes, sir.

Q. Do you ever use prussic acid on your sacks?
A. Acid? No, sir; I don't use anything on them.

I can find nothing whatsoever about Lizzie owning a diamond ring given to her by Andrew. She may have owned many such rings, but, no info on Andrew gifting one to Lizzie.

Lizzie may not have been an equal with the matrons of her church, but, I believe that they took her under their wings. If Lizzie had aspirations to be considered an equal, I think it would have been with her own set, the young, unmarried daughters of wealthy men that lived on the Hill. Her address may have been a hindrance to her or her allowance from Andrew, etc. From Alice Russell's standpoint it was that Lizzie and Emma did not get enough money from Andrew to have things the way they wanted.

Alice Russell, Inquest, page 151:

Q. What was the difference in their natures?
A. Mr. Borden was a plain living man with rigid ideas, and very set. They were young girls. He had earned his money, and he did not care for the things that young women in their position naturally would; and he looked upon those things----I don't know just how to put it.

Q. He did not appreciate girls?
A. No, I don't think he did.

Q. Their ideas were more modern than his with regard to the way of living, do you mean?
A. Yes, Sir.

Q. How did you get this, from the girl talk, or what you observed?
A. From what I observed. Everyone knew what Andrew Borden's ideas were. He was a very plain living man; he did not care for anything different. It always seemed to me as if he did not see why they should care for anything different.

Q. Did they complain about it?
A. Yes, they used to think it ought to be different; there was no reason why it should not be. They used to think it might be different.

Q. Lizzie or Emma, or both?
A. Both.

Q. There never was any wrangling between them?
A. No, I never heard any. They had quite refined ideas, and they would have liked to have been cultured girls, and would like to have had different advantages, and it would (sic) natural for girls to express themselves that way. I think it would have been very unnatural had they not.

Q. He did not give them the advantages of education that they thought they ought to have had?
A. I don't know as it is just that; but people cannot go and do and have, unless they have ample means to do it.

That is most probably why Lizzie went in the circles she did, her girlfriends were young, unmarried working girls, mostly teachers I believe. Her allowance may have put her in this social group where she fit in monetarily and culturewise.

Yes, children who don't want to follow the Old Ways have been around quite a while. IMO
One problem is when their ideas come from advertising, not real needs or wants.

I can understand Andrew's viewpoint. He grew up poor, worked hard to make himself successful, and was frugal with his money; he remembered what it was like not to have it. I don't know what kind of family Abby came from, but she obviously was not a spendthrift. That may have been what attracted him to her. Perhaps Andrew was more tightfisted than he needed to be, but then that's not uncommon among those who grew up poor. We are appalled at his refusal to have gaslights, or hot water, or bathrooms. However, let's remember that these were fairly new luxuries. Andrew, and Abby as well, grew up with outhouses, water pumps, oil lamps...these things had served them well through the years...Andrew probably saw no need for all these new-fangled inventions. Plus, they cost money. Abby probably kept a clean and comfortable home, and was content.

Lizzie and Emma, on the other hand, never knew what it was like to be poor....and probably felt that since Andrew had money, they should flaunt it. They had no concept of working to make a living, or supporting a household. They only saw that if Andrew was worth a certain amount of money, they should be living in comparable style.

Andrew did make concessions to them...he had a toilet installed, he had running water in the kitchen, they got an allowance each month to use as they wished, they were provided with a home, food; they didn't have to work to make a living. Not to mention the trips they took. Andrew probably figured they had it pretty well. Especially since they showed no ambition to either make a living or find a husband to support them.

Does anyone else find this thread heading a bit...simplistic?