Lizzie Borden Society Forum

Posted: **Fri Jan 26, 2007 7:04 pm**

I was thumbing through Rebello, when it struck me that Lizzie had a timing problem. On page 574, from the Inquest Testimony:
Andrew Borden left the house for downtown. Adelaide Churchill saw Mr. Borden leave his house from the side door about 9:00am. Lizzie said her father left at "10:00 or a little after. He was not gone so very long."

But Mr. Borden was seen at the bank according to all the attorneys at 9:30am, and Bridget was seen by Mr. Pettey washing windows by 10:00am. So, Lizzie is caught in a lie here I think. Mrs. Churchill also saw Bridget washing the windows at 10:00 . That leaves Lizzie in the house with Abby from 9:00 to 10:00.

Posted: **Fri Jan 26, 2007 8:19 pm**

correction, I meant 9:30 to 10:00 as to Lizzie's wherabouts.

Posted: **Fri Jan 26, 2007 10:36 pm**

Harry also pointed out another big one in the past, in a nutshell; Andrew came home at approximately 10:45, Bridget and Lizzie were together in the dining room until a few minutes before 11:00 when Bridget went up to her room to rest. Bridget thinks she was in her room for 10 to 15 minutes before Lizzie called her down saying her father was dead. There was not enough time for Lizzie to go out in the barn and be there for 20 to 30 minutes like she said she had. Plus the police report showed that the call came in to them at 11:15, so, Bridget was probably up in her room for less time leaving Lizzie less time for her "20 to 30 minute visit to the barn".

Posted: **Sat Jan 27, 2007 3:36 pm**

I remember David Kent's book as giving a timeline for the activities of Lizzie. He also warned that times were not accurate to the minute.

I think there was time enough for Lizzie to go to the backyard and eat a few pears (if she did that). Maybe to go into the barn; or even climb the staircase to the top of the barn.

Has anyone evertime these activities instead of just speculating about them?

PS I once went to a library and forgot about the summer hours. Ever try to kill just 15 minutes walking around and waiting for their opening?

Posted: **Sat Jan 27, 2007 6:08 pm**

I think maybe what happened, and I have done this, was that she really was not watching the clock and was probably just going around her every day business. I hav done that, and lost a whole day. Just going around doing stuff and next thing I know it's nite time.

Posted: **Sun Jan 28, 2007 7:50 pm**

Well, I don't think she wore a watch, and she had never really been exposed to any deadlines that I know of, liking holding down a job or any regular day to day responsibilities that would require her to report at a certain time. She was definitely caught in a lie when she said Andrew left the house at 10:00 or a little after.

Posted: **Sun Jan 28, 2007 8:02 pm**

Right you are, Scott. All one has to do is read the statements by the witnesses to follow Andrew's morning virtually minute by minute.

If Andrew didn't leave until 10 then he was home at the time Abbie was murdered. That's a whole new wrinkle.

Sorry, Lizbeth, that can't be.

Posted: **Fri Feb 02, 2007 4:19 pm**

It only takes a 10 seconds to get to the barn from the side door and maybe 15 more to climb up to the hayloft in a long skirt, but the interesting thing is the eating of that many pears. A lot depends on what type of pear she ate- or more specifically how large. I have been researching 1892 early August varieties with the university school of agriculture. The large varieties such as Bartlett or Comice are definitely out- even chewing like a maniac, it takes about 2 minutes to eat a regular Bartlett-sized pear without choking. If Lizzie gobbled down 4 pears or more, they must have been small, such a a seckel pear-an odd choice for someone who had been ill with gastric problems. Fruit is not the answer at such times.

Posted: **Fri Feb 02, 2007 4:41 pm**

Perhaps "eating pears" should be interpreted generically?
How many and how fast could depend on her hunger. Only a cookie and coffee for bkfst?

Sugar water wasn't an aid for an upset stomach? Remember Coke syrup and plain water for an upset stomach?

Lizze was seen coming from the backyard or barn by Lubinsky around 11am. Experts can give the time from the Trial Transcript, assuming they read the Prosecutor's comments and challenges.

Posted: **Fri Feb 02, 2007 6:31 pm**

Another thing very odd about John and Lizzie- with lunch coming up in less than an hour- I wonder why anyone would eat 4-5 pears- even if they were small ones? In John's case- lunch was but minutes way had the schedule not been interupted by other events.

Andrew was taking Garfield tea, named for the president, who was a great tea drinker- so much so that his photo was on the box, and a teaspoon was produced called the Garfield Teaspoon, with his likeness on the handle. Fruit has the fiber and effect of promoting intestinal evacuation-in other words- if one was suffering from vomiting and especially diarrhea , fruit would not be indicated or recommended. Conversely syrup of figs, the ingredient in Castoria, which is still produced, promotes "regularity".

Had Lizzie been suffering from such digestive ailments, the great Victorian food recommendation was plain rice to "bind" and oil of peppermint, rosemary tea, or ginger tea for upset stomachs.

Only a few hours before on that same morning, Lizzie tells Abby she does not want much for dinner as she is still not feeling well.

Posted: **Fri Feb 02, 2007 7:04 pm**

Shelley @ Fri Feb 02, 2007 6:31 pm wrote:Another thing very odd about John and Lizzie- with lunch coming up in less than an hour- I wonder why anyone would eat 4-5 pears- even if they were small ones? In John's case- lunch was but minutes way had the schedule not been interupted by other events.

Andrew was taking Garfield tea, named for the president, who was a great tea drinker- so much so that his photo was on the box, and a teaspoon was produced called the Garfield Teaspoon, with his likeness on the handle. Fruit has the fiber and effect of promoting intestinal evacuation-in other words- if one was suffering from vomiting and especially diarrhea , fruit would not be indicated or recommended. Conversely syrup of figs, the ingredient in Castoria, which is still produced, promotes "regularity".

It's funny you should mention this, as I have always found it odd that Lizzie was not interested in food at all that day. She thought she had some coffee or cookies perhaps at breakfast, but was generally "not hungry". She supposedly told her step mother she didn't want anything for the noon meal, and I don't remember anything about her eating that night. Makes me think she was under the influence of some drug, or the adrenaline had kicked in and taken her appetitie away.

Had Lizzie been suffering from such digestive ailments, the great Victorian food recommendation was plain rice to "bind" and oil of peppermint, rosemary tea, or ginger tea for upset stomachs.

Only a few hours before on that same morning, Lizzie tells Abby she does not want much for dinner as she is still not feeling well.

Posted: **Fri Feb 02, 2007 7:06 pm**

Sorry, my response and Shelley's post got mingled together, don't know how that happened?

Posted: **Fri Feb 02, 2007 9:30 pm**

I think the eating all those pears explanation was her way of explaining how she could have been outside for so long- as looking for a bit of lead or tin was not a sufficient excuse to explain the amount of time she said she was out of the house. There was a ready-made reason handy in those fallen pears all over the ground, and somewhat believable too. Problem was though that people had a hard time buying she was up in the hayloft munching away at all that fruit.

She should have said she was coming back into the house, but sat down in the arbor as it was cool and shady, and picked up a pear to eat. Not a very imaginative liar. If she had eaten the fruit outside, at least there would have been a better explanation for where the cores, seeds and stems were. Unless they believed she ate all that fruit in the loft, then neatly carried away all the uneatable parts and disposed of them before finding Andrew. Maybe the pear remnants were in the same place the missing note was

Posted: **Fri Feb 02, 2007 9:53 pm**

Lizzie had to put herself in a place away from the murder, and where she couldn't hear or see an intruder coming or going. I think this was the reason for the hayloft, it was the most remote spot on the premises with respect to seeing or hearing anything going on at the house. I agree, the pears were just included to help account for the time involved.

Posted: **Sat Feb 03, 2007 5:15 am**

At Lizzie's inquest she states:
Q. What did you do?
A. I ate my pears.
Q. Stood there eating the pears, doing nothing?
A. I was looking out of the window.
Q. Stood there, looking out of the window, eating the pears?
A. I should think so.
Q. How many did you eat?
A. Three, I think.

I agree that the size of the pear would be important.

She ate 3 pears while looking out that window. That is very high up I believe and she could see quite a lot- except we are not yet sure of her view to the left towards the cellar door from that vantage point.

It sounds like she did put herself, leisurely, in a place where she could see the side yard at least while she ate 3 pears.
Remember she admits that "No, only that I can't do anything in a minute."

Posted: **Sat Feb 03, 2007 9:05 am**

Hard to know as the barn was about 10 feet closer to the house then than this view- but if a tree were not in the way (pear tree) that loft offers a great view all the way over to Kelly's yard. Churchill's house would have effectively blocked the view to the North on Second St. But she had a dead shot on that gate and driveway to the side door and the cellar door as you can see.

Posted: **Sat Feb 03, 2007 6:24 pm**

That's a good view! Thanks! People may not realize how tall these structures were with a view.
But we are still not certain of the line-of-sight to the cellar door- as far as I know? And as you say, the barn was closer to the house than this one is.

Posted: **Sat Feb 03, 2007 6:31 pm**

I still think it is strange that Lizzie didn't claim to eat anything that day except those pears, and maybe coffee and cookies, she couldn't be certain. No breakfast, no noon meal, no dinner I don't think. Of course, considering what had happened that day, I probably wouldn't have had much of an appetite either. And probably the Bromo Caffeiene helped curb her appetite. So, why did she gobble down pears right before the noon meal? That would ruin your appetite for lunch for sure. And if she was pumped up with adrenaline, the last thing on her mind would be to eat.

Posted: **Sat Feb 03, 2007 6:32 pm**

That photo was taken from the loft of course, but even moving the view 10 feet forward, the cellar and side door are still clear from the loft. I am pretty sure from looking at vintage photos, the pear trees were more to the rear of the lot and pear trees are not tall trees. There does not appear to be any obstruction from the gate and driveway back to the barn if a photo is taken from Second Street. Yes, the house and barn are tall in the lot, with a high foundation.

Posted: **Sat Feb 03, 2007 6:45 pm**

Moving just a few inches to the left and looking out the same window, a clear shot of the driveway all the way to Second Street and across the street to Bowen/Miller house is possible, but you have to imagine the Churchill house right on top of the fence to the right. I imagine it would have blocked about one fourth of the right side of this photo.

Posted: **Sat Feb 03, 2007 6:46 pm**

Morse ate pears or a pear before the noon meal as well, as has been pointed out already. And Lizzie had coffee and a cookie and told Abbie she wanted nothing for dinner- or no meat- we're not sure. The family did have "tea" - at least Tuesday they did, after supper I think. So that is a chance to eat if one wants to.
As for after the tragedy happened, Mrs. Dr. Bowen sent over tea and toast to Lizzie. I don't know if she ate it?

As for real measurements, I think some have been taken to assess if the cellar door that juts out could be seen from the west loft window in Lizzie's day, rather than an estimate. I have not heard a difinitive answer yet on that.

Lizzie Borden Society Forum

Timing Problem

Timing Problem