Lizzie Borden Society Forum

More questions on the way

How religious was this family?

What Church did they belong to?

From where do I get the idea that Andrew Borden had some sort of Calvinistic attitude towards life & living? For example I read that the House didn't have any electricity even if they could afford it.

You read wrong. There was no electricity available at that time.

You may be thinking of gas lighting?

And you still wrong, its the Amish (and Mennonites?) who disdain electricity and gasoline automobiles.

Nishmat...I hope you can ignore some of RayS's harsh comments. He does not represent the attitude nor behavior of most of us here. Please keep reading and asking whatever questions you wish. You are doing great !!





Tracy...

Yes, it has been written that Andrew was not a progressive modern male in his day. It was well known that he did not have gas lighting but instead used oil lamps. Also reported was the fact that there was no toilet facilities within the living quarters, neither on the first or second floors.

Though many like to recite Andrew Borden's habits when it came to religion, much of it is speculation.

Andrew was a member of the FIRST CONGREGATIONAL CHURCH on North Main Street and later attended the CENTRAL CONGREGATIONAL CHURCH, which was located on Rock Street between Franklin and Bank Streets, just a block away from the First Congregational. It is popular belief that Andrew later returned to the First Congregational---for what ever reason, again never made real clear.

How religious was the family..........to this we can only guess. In Andrew's time, going to church was a display of strong moral character, if not religious conviction. Most educated middle class families made it a point to attend church. After all "In God We Trust" was more than just a motto or an inscription on currency. For many Sunday Service was a way of life, even for those not so religious, and missing church was avoided at all cost, including fishing.

Though there is much proof of Lizzie's active life within the church, most historians love to toy with how Andrew Borden abandoned his station at the pew. Again, though much has been written about his ecclesiastic practices, we will never know what was brewing in the man's heart.

You read wrong. There was no electricity available at that time.

You may be thinking of gas lighting?

And you still wrong, its the Amish (and Mennonites?) who disdain electricity and gasoline automobiles.

Ray,

You don't have to make any comments on my post if you cannot answer my questions.

You seem like an incredible ignorant person, makes me wonder if you have finished high school.

No electricity at that time??? Ever heard of Thomas Edison??

If I thought Borden's we're Amish people I would have said so. You don't even seem to recognize that there's a difference between Amish
habits and Calvinism. Amish people have nothing to do with the sort of Calvinism I mentioned in here.

Take out your angers on someone else.

Thanks for your post on this subject, mbhenty.
Now, I will continue my research...


edit:

Eureka!! Congregationalism are related to Calvinism and the movement started back in England. Checked it up on wikipedia.org

Hi nishmat

Welcome to the forum!!!
Do you get the Hatchet (magazine on Lizzie Borden studies)? There is an article in there on their church and some good history also, was in the latest issue.

I would love to hear about anything you might discover in your research though.

thanks, Bobarth...
I'm in the beginning of my Borden studies... most of them take place on internet.
At the moment I'm very fascinated about Lizzies persona, so I'm trying to learn as much as possible about her. I guess I'm more interested in the persons than the case itself.

I also find her father very interesting.
Many years ago I watched the Lizzie Borden movie, the one who was made in 1975 (?) and recently I came across some short clips at youtube and my interest was re-awakened. I have no Lizzie books at home, but may order some from amazon.com.
I also watched a Lizzie Borden documentary from Biography.

I enjoy this forum and it's nice to see so many people comitted to Lizze and the case. I learn a lot from all the posts in here.

nishmat @ Thu Mar 01, 2007 11:36 am wrote:

You read wrong. There was no electricity available at that time.

You may be thinking of gas lighting?

And you still wrong, its the Amish (and Mennonites?) who disdain electricity and gasoline automobiles.

Ray,

You don't have to make any comments on my post if you cannot answer my questions.

You seem like an incredible ignorant person, makes me wonder if you have finished high school.

No electricity at that time??? Ever heard of Thomas Edison??

If I thought Borden's we're Amish people I would have said so. You don't even seem to recognize that there's a difference between Amish
habits and Calvinism. Amish people have nothing to do with the sort of Calvinism I mentioned in here.

Take out your angers on someone else.

My aunt and uncle who died in the 1960s lived in a small frame house where the toilet and bath were in the basement. Just like the Bordens?
Retrofitting plumbing in an old house is easiest if put in the basement, especially when there was no central heating.

You are welcome to your own opinions, of course.

I was looking at the crime scene photo of Andrew-on-the-couch and it always surprises me that there were not more gee-gaws around the room. It seems to have been furnished sparsley when compared to other Victorian homes, of more modest means. Now-a-days it looks simply furnished in the pictures but the Borden family, to be in with the times, should have had tons of *stuff* everywhere- hanging on the walls, bric a brac scattered everywhere, lots and lots of things as decoration. At least in the photos we don't see that. Seems austere.

Here's an example. It's Rev. Buck's sitting room. He certainly was not rich, probably middle class. Look at all his stuff!

Kat; I think that there were plenty of "gee-gaws" in the sitting room. It's just that the angle of the camera doesn't show them. I think that at least one doily-covered small table was moved out of camera range.
If you look around Andrew's autopsy photos, you can see at least one of those tables. It has a lace doily or tablecloth, plus some books and a straw boater, I believe. (Too bad we never get a view of the mantle!)

Now, I really, really wonder what kind of pictures the Bordens had hanging on the walls...The crime scene photo with andrew on the sofa don't show much stuff at all in that room.

I can imagine flower motives and maybe a painting with religious motives...

That's true- a table was moved out of sight in the Andrew-on-the-couch picture.

I thought the guest room was rather sparse as well, tho? Maybe there was more stuff on the walls or bureau that were knocked around and thus removed before the pictures were taken?
2 pictures on that long north wall of the sitting room doesn't seem like very many.
There was the other side of the room of course, but the side we do see is practically bare. I don't know as one table (moved) would count for all the things I think a Victorian home should have? Of course, you are right about the mantle possibly being full of stuff.

I was thinking of this in relation to Andrew. I thought he might prefer rather spartan surroundings.
nishmat, did you have Victorian-inspired furnishings in your country in that time period?

I figured that the mantle might be a catch-all, simply from the fact that Andrew kept the keys there. (If everything were perfectly displayed, like in today's homes, one wouldn't want to throw off the "balance" or feng shui by throwing your keys there every day!)
I thought the guest room was rather under-done myself, until you "put back" the chairs that had been moved to take the photo.

I was thinking that from what I recall it the woman's job in the Victorian era to decorate the home according the family's taste and the husband's pocketbook? Perhaps due to Abby's upbring in "genteel poverty", as Michael Martins had put it, that her taste was simple and serviceable? Andrew himself wasn't from a monied background, so, between the two of them, they may have recreated what they knew from their own homes they grew up in. I guess Andrew would have the final say-so on whether he gave Abby the money to purchase things. Didn't she have to buy towels and doilies and the lace curtains in the parlor out of her own household allowance?

And, it may have been the times that the home was decorated, in the early 1870s when the Bordens moved in, the design may have been more uncluttered. Wasn't there a newspaper article that commented on the furniture of the sitting room being dated? I did find a pic of an 1880's parlor that to me looks underdecorated as the parlor was supposed to wow visitors. It makes me think of the Borden sitting room in its simplicity.

Here is a link to the pic:

http://news.webshots.com/photo/29542611 ... 4316wDASLt

One other thing I noticed while examining the photos of the Borden home: the wallpapers used have very simple designs, not at all like the usual "busy" designs that were used during their day. And not only did the Victorians like their "busy" wallpaper, they usually had ceiling paper, as well as at least one border paper as well. Ironically, I have always thought the photos of 92 Second Street taken back then gave the Borden home a more modern, less dated look.
(But, I have the feeling that Lizzie and Emma probably overcompensated for this when they purchased Maplecroft!)

How wonderful it would be if instead of taking a vacation anywhere in the world, we could just stay in our home town and just go back 100 years or so for a couple of weeks. It would be worth spending a day in jail for trespassing at Number 92 or Maplecorft and just look in the windows.

But, if you did look into 92 Second street I don't think you would see anything on the walls in the way of religious pictures.

The Borden's, like most of the English in Fall River, were protestant. Most were very federal or congregationalists in their religious practices. Though Congregational Churches were very ornate in Victorian times there was little in the form of images of art as we see in the Catholic Religion. The Borden's Calvinistic practices would not lend to the display of effigies, icons or paintings of religious scenes, such as those of the holy family, Jesus or Mary. So it would be my opinion that very little hung on the wall in the way of religious portraits at Lizzie Borden's house at 92 Second or later at Maplecroft.

Now if one could visit Bridget's room up on the third floor, I would be surprised if a small painting or cross did not hang above her bed.

nishmat, did you have Victorian-inspired furnishings in your country in that time period?

I guess so, Kat...at least among the upper-classes. The fashion among middle class and upper class was 100% Victorian. In 1880 there was no problem finding the same chic parfumes used by women in England in Sweden for example.

Wow you guys have been helpful. Thanks for opinions and also that link was cool, Susan.

I was looking in the Victorian Vistas before reading you all.
I found and scanned pictures of Col. Ricard Borden's interior, c. 1870. They were displayed in the volume dated 1886-1900 tho. I don't know if they help, beng 1870 and all.
Still...- Victorian...

One more

nishmat @ Fri Mar 02, 2007 2:11 pm wrote:Now, I really, really wonder what kind of pictures the Bordens had hanging on the walls...The crime scene photo with andrew on the sofa don't show much stuff at all in that room.

I can imagine flower motives and maybe a painting with religious motives...

Welcome Nishmat. I was told that the picture that hangs on the wall
over the sofa is the same one that is seen in Andrew's crime seen photo

Thanks Jeff, this is a nice forum.

Yes, Nishmat, welcome!

The painting over the sofa in the sitting room is The Village Elms.

Ahh, I could imagine a picture like that...

Thank you for the picture Harry! I can't believe how long it's been since that was shown!

Did we decide anything about the interior of the house on Second Street?
Yes, as was brought up, it was claimed in the W.S. that Abbie had to use her own allowance to put up curtains.

W.S.
17
Harrington. Visited Mrs. Jane Gray, Mrs. Borden’s step mother. Her statement. “Things were not as pleasant at the Borden house as they might be. That is the reason I did not call on Mrs. Borden as often as I would have liked to. I told Mrs. Borden I would not change places with her for all her money. What I know about them is all hearsay. Mrs. Borden was a very close mouthed woman. She would bear a great deal, and say nothing. She told me she and the girls were allowed an equal monthly allowance, but they had more out of it than I for I had to furnish the table coverings, towelling, and other small things for the house out of mine.”

and

W.S.
18
Sunday 21. Summoning witnesses, Bestcome A. Case and wife of 199 Second street. Their statement. Understood from general talk the girls and Mrs. Borden did not get along very pleasantly. Never heard Mrs. Borden say anything about the family relations. Her allowance was about $200. a year; but much of it was spent on articles for the house. The lace curtains in the parlor she purchased. The girls got the same amount as she, but it was for their own use.