Lizzie Borden Society Forum

It seems to me that Lizzie's decision to do a complete turnabout from calling Abby "mother" to "Mrs. Borden" stems from a rage, resulting in an attempt to hurt Abby. If Lizzie was growing up and simply decided to call her "Abby" it would have made more sense because it would still show some degree of closeness, familiarity, or some kind of relationship. To go to the other end of the spectrum and start referring to her step-mother in the most formal way- the way a stranger would call her- appears to be an intentional slap in the face. I think it was a deliberately hateful thing she did because she is trying to show Abby she no longer has any significance to her.

But didn't Emma testify at the trial that she also called her 'Abby'?
Emma knew her real mother, Lizzie was 2 when her Mom died.

Could both have regarded Abby as an interloper and rival for Daddy's affections?
What was your experiences as a little girl (assuming you had siblings)?

RayS @ Thu Apr 05, 2007 1:56 pm wrote:But didn't Emma testify at the trial that she also called her 'Abby'?
Emma knew her real mother, Lizzie was 2 when her Mom died.

Could both have regarded Abby as an interloper and rival for Daddy's affections?
What was your experiences as a little girl (assuming you had siblings)?

Ray, would you be so kind as to post the testimony of Emma to which you refer ?

Thanks.





Tracy...

Angel @ Thu Apr 05, 2007 2:02 pm wrote:It seems to me that Lizzie's decision to do a complete turnabout from calling Abby "mother" to "Mrs. Borden" stems from a rage, resulting in an attempt to hurt Abby. If Lizzie was growing up and simply decided to call her "Abby" it would have made more sense because it would still show some degree of closeness, familiarity, or some kind of relationship. To go to the other end of the spectrum and start referring to her step-mother in the most formal way- the way a stranger would call her- appears to be an intentional slap in the face. I think it was a deliberately hateful thing she did because she is trying to show Abby she no longer has any significance to her.

The drastic change is a good point, Lizzie went from one extreme to the other. "Mrs. Borden", coming from Lizzie, also seems to emphasize the relationship to Andrew and no one else.

As far as we know from what Emma and Lizzie said about the matter, what started the quarrel was that Andrew purchased Abby's stepmother's half of a house and put it in Abby's name in order that Abby's half sister would not be put out of her home. Emma and Lzzie took exception to this, feeling that "what he did for her people he ought to do for his own children." (Lizzie's inquest testimony. See page 42 of http://lizzieandrewborden.com/pdf%20fil ... nquest.pdf) Even after Andrew had given them equivalent property, they still were not reconciled to Abby. Unless there was considerably more to it than this, I cannot think much of Lizzie or Emma. Knowlton rightly described their finding fault with Andrew's action and Abby's involvement (purely a matter of form) as "wicked" and "petty."

Yooper @ Thu Apr 05, 2007 8:42 pm wrote:

Angel @ Thu Apr 05, 2007 2:02 pm wrote:It seems to me that Lizzie's decision to do a complete turnabout from calling Abby "mother" to "Mrs. Borden" stems from a rage, resulting in an attempt to hurt Abby. If Lizzie was growing up and simply decided to call her "Abby" it would have made more sense because it would still show some degree of closeness, familiarity, or some kind of relationship. To go to the other end of the spectrum and start referring to her step-mother in the most formal way- the way a stranger would call her- appears to be an intentional slap in the face. I think it was a deliberately hateful thing she did because she is trying to show Abby she no longer has any significance to her.

The drastic change is a good point, Lizzie went from one extreme to the other. "Mrs. Borden", coming from Lizzie, also seems to emphasize the relationship to Andrew and no one else.

Yes. I can see Lizzie thinking: You may have Father. but you do NOT have me !





Tracy...

Constantine @ Fri Apr 06, 2007 5:47 pm wrote:As far as we know from what Emma and Lizzie said about the matter, what started the quarrel was that Andrew purchased Abby's stepmother's half of a house and put it in Abby's name in order that Abby's half sister would not be put out of her home. Emma and Lzzie took exception to this, feeling that "what he did for her people he ought to do for his own children." (Lizzie's inquest testimony. See page 42 of http://lizzieandrewborden.com/pdf%20fil ... nquest.pdf) Even after Andrew had given them equivalent property, they still were not reconciled to Abby. Unless there was consierably more to it than this, I cannot think much of Lizzie or Emma. Knowlton rightly described their finding fault with Andrew's action and Abby's involvement (purely a matter of form) as "wicked" and "petty."

Andrew giving Abby half interest in the Whitehead property might have been the first realization by Lizzie and Emma that they might someday have to share their father's estate with Abby. Nothing Andrew could have given them would have made up for that, short of deeding everything over to them on the spot. Abby may have been seen as an outsider and her marriage to Andrew as a temporary condition by Lizzie and Emma. Then reality reared its ugly head! The changes which occurred as a result of the incident point to the incident being an epiphany of some magnitude.

It's a strange thing to think, but had Emma left the home and married at an age when most girls were marrying, Lizzies life could have been completely different, she was only two when her mother died and would have looked to Abby as her mother, but was torn between her sister and Abby, Emma admittedly, was the one who really resented Abby and she saw to it that Lizzie felt that way too. The whitehead's house was the turning point for them, "see Lizzie, she's even going to keep us from our share of father's estate!" I think that's when Lizzie made the choice between the two. Emma was the one who really hated Abby, Lizzie just followed suit.

theebmonique @ Thu Apr 05, 2007 7:34 pm wrote:

RayS @ Thu Apr 05, 2007 1:56 pm wrote:But didn't Emma testify at the trial that she also called her 'Abby'?
Emma knew her real mother, Lizzie was 2 when her Mom died.

Could both have regarded Abby as an interloper and rival for Daddy's affections?
What was your experiences as a little girl (assuming you had siblings)?

Ray, would you be so kind as to post the testimony of Emma to which you refer ?

Thanks.
Tracy...

In a word, NO.
It should be available in the Resources, and I just don't want to bother with something that is known to the others.

Would you be so kind as to explain why you are asking me? Click, click?

Emma must have had an idea how status conscious Lizzie was and how much inheriting part of a fortune would have meant to her. Lizzie seems to have been rehearsing for the part for quite a while! Lizzie might have reached the conclusion on her own, without Emma's suggesting it, but Emma probably would have reinforced and supported the conclusion.

Ooh, interesting posts! I think Emma also testified that things improved some between Lizzie and Abby after the House that Andrew Bought, but between herself (Emma) and Abby they did not. The house Andrew gifted 'the girls' with to shut them up was worth more than Andrew's purchase for Abby. Being landlords did not suit the sisters, and Andrew ended up buying it back from them for more than what it was worth when he first gave it to them. I don't know if that was because of the passage of time, or if 'the girls' nagged him for a profit. It seems to me he bought the house back from them only a couple weeks before the murders. That always sounded interesting.

Abby's wish to procure the house to keep her sister from losing the home was a kind and caring one. Andrew helping out was a good deed. With all of Lizzie's churchgoing and Emma's cloak of respectability, one would think they would see it as that. They acted selfishly and didn't even want their father to help Abby's family out unless they got something too. Nasty.

RayS: Lizzie never called Abby "Abby" that I ever read. Only Emma did, and she did since she was 14, when Abby first came into the family.

In someone's testimony they said that Lizzie would also sometimes call Abby "Mrs. B." and that she made awful fun of her. It wasn't said just what stuff Lizzie said, darn it. Some of the mean things Lizzie said was told both on and off the stand.

I do agree with the theory posted on here long ago - that little Emma was a little jealous girl. Their mother told Emma to take care of Baby Lizzie, and it looks like her nose got out of joint when Andrew re-married. Emma must have squirmed to hear Lizzie call the new wife "Mother", even tho Abby was very good to Lizzie and Lizzie needed a mother.