Lizzie Borden Society Forum

I was wondering what command you would have given to the engine room if you were in command of the Titanic at the sighting of the ice berg?

-1bigsteve (o:

Knowing what we know now, "Prepare the lifeboats, and fill them to capacity!' Other then that, there really wasn't much that could have been done. The only other thing that could have changed the out come at all, would have been sighting it alot quicker then they did.

Did you know about that Greek cruise ship that sunk yesterday in 19 hours when you introduced this topic?
I can't figure out how that could happen. Maybe the driver was drunk?

As for being the Captain of the Titanic, I think those kind of men of those times were used to being like 'god'- and if he believed the hype about unsinkable, then it makes sense to me so many lives were lost.
I don't know the character of the Captain.

It was too late to stop the ship by reversing the engines, so the only way out was to steer away from the iceberg. I think the Titanic had three propellers, so center neutral or possibly reverse to slow the ship, and either full ahead port and full reverse starboard for a starboard turn, or the opposite for a port turn. I imagine this was probably done or in the process of being done.

The orders that first officer murdoch gave were: Hard a Starbord, Stop, Full speed Astern. Which meant to turn the ships wheel all the way to port and to run the engines at full speed in reverse, until the ship was stopped.

Titanic was traveling at 22 and half knots when they spotted the Iceberg. Titanic had slowed down to 18 knots when it hit the Iceberg.

In 1912 hard a starboard meant to put the stern to starboard, so the wheel had to be turned to port. I am not sure but I think the reason for this is that it went back to the old days when ships were steered with tillers, so to turn the ship to port the tiller woud have to be pushed to starboard.

Murdoch, who didn't survive the sinking, was critizized by many writers in the years to come for the orders he gave.

Many belive that if Murdoch had left the engines as they were, ahead full, and had just turned the wheel, that the collision would have been avoided all togeather. I think that probably just about all of us have been in a boat and have seen what happens when the wheel is turned, and then the engine slowed, and then reversed. A ship trying to make a forward turn with its engines going in reverse does not turn well.

Murdoch was also criticized by some, saying that he should have run the engines in reverse and headed straight into the iceberg, so that Tianic's side would not have been damaged. The bow and the first few compartments would have been damaged, but it wouldn't have sank.

But lets be realistic before criticizing Murdoch, he had very little time to make a decision. In hindsight perhaps his decision was wrong but it was the natural decision to make. The first two things that would come to mind would be to turn to avoid a collision and to try to stop the ship before it hit the Iceberg. That is what Murdoch tied to do, he didn't know that they were going to hit the Iceberg anyway, if they turned the ship. But he did know that they would surely hit the Iceberg if they didn't turn the ship.

Perhaps if he had had more time to think he might have considered or considered more the difficulty of turning a ship with the engines in reverse.

The error in judgment was forgetting the forward momentum of the ship. The ship wanted to maintain its present course, and reversing the engines with the wheel turned would have the net effect of an automobile on ice with the rear end skidding and trying to pass the front end in slow motion. All that happened was the ship was edging broadside to the iceberg. This might have worked, given more room. Turning broadside to the momentum vector would slow the ship drastically, it would be trying to move broadside, against the side of the ship, and the drag would be tremendous. This would have amounted to an emergency stop procedure, but there wasn't time. He could have used the forward momentum to some advantage by assisting the turn with the engines, it might have helped just enough in the case of the Titanic. 20/20 hindsight!

To be fair about it, Murdoch probably didn't know how close the iceberg was, nor did he know how many other icebergs were nearby. The ship was in a field of icebergs, and he wouldn't have known if steering around one might not bring him in line with another one. The only rational choice was to stop the ship completely. The real error in judgment was trying to skirt the ice field at 22 knots.

The Titanic was trying to set a speed record, and cruised north to shorten the distance. Other ships in the area tells this was accepted practice. Speed Kills!

The Real Problem was the inferior bolts used to fasten the plates to the side. (A second skin, as on some oil carriers, could've prevented the sinking.) The hard bolts shattered and loosened the plates, letting water in. Softer bolts would'nt have shattered.

That is why they use "case hardened" locks. Hard on the outside to resist sawing, soft on the inside to prevent shattering. Those hardened steering wheel locks can be shattered with a hammer after some gas is used to quickly cool the hard metal. Else they simply saw through the soft metal of the steering wheel! That's like putting on a lock on a video camera to prevent the film from being stolen - they take the whole camera.

That ship in the Aegean did not sink quickly because the damage must have been local. The shattered bolts allowed greater damage.

Or so I read once.

All of these questions are admirably addressed on the cadillac of Titanic sites, Encyclopedia Titanica
http://www.encyclopedia-titanica.org
The ship needed a quarter mile to "answer" its engine telegraph orders. The best maneuver was to have hit the berg head on, collapsing the first one or two watertight compartments-there were 16 in all and she could have stayed afloat with those gone. With most of the berg beneath the surface, it is likely that a spur exerted such pressure below the waterline that 4-5 compartments were opened to the sea by a number of methods: punctures, plates separating, rivets (ice cold in the 28 degree water) shearing off, buckling hull plates, etc.

Positioning the vulnerable starboard side of the ship
to the ice was a mistake, but Murdock probably thought they could just miss it -and he could not know there was a deadly spur below the surface.

There is great speculation as to whether if there had been binoculars in the crow's nest, lookouts Lee and Fleet might have spotted the berg sooner. It was a dark, starry, nearly moonless night, an an oily calm sea, -and the berg was presenting a dark side which had recently been underwater, so conditions could not have been worse. Like Lizzie, I suspect people will be talking about Titanic well into the future when we are all dust. It has been a fascination of mine for 30 years. www.revdma2.com

Titanic's last living first class lady, Marjorie Newell Robb, died in Fall River on Highland Avenue at the age of 103 in the Adams Nursing Home. She was an amazing lady, full of great stories and life adventures. She and her sister Madeleine had been returning from the Grand Tour with their father, Boston banker, Arthur Newell who was lost that fateful night. The body was found and now the whole family rests in Mt. Auburn cemetery, Boston.
.
Marjorie's son, Newell Robb was the curator of the Fall River Marine
Museum where the big Titanic model from the Stanwyck movie is displayed.

Marjorie recalled sitting with the Astors at dinner, and the silken rustling of the ladies' trains gliding down the grand staircase as they gathered for dinner in the evening. . Mrs. Newell wore black for her lifetime , also 103 years, her husband's watch and ring beneath her pillow at night. Titanic was never mentioned in the home. Marjorie married, and lived in Westport, Mass. until she was 100 when she moved into Fall River's Adams House. So, there is a Fall River
connection!
http://www.encyclopedia-titanica.org/item/3519/

I heard some Florida student survivors of the Greek cruise ship sinking speak on TV about "Women and Children First!" One young lady could hardly believe they still shouted this around the ship and she says it was put into action. That made it like a movie for her.
With Women's Lib, you'd think the survival guideline would be "Every person for themselves!"

I would've hit the iceberg head on. The Titanic was designed to stay afloat with the first four compartments flooded. So even a head on collision would not have sunken the ship. I would've just braced myself and hit her head on.

There is also a connection to Weirton, WV. I gave a speech for my speech class on a woman, Elin Hakkarainen, who moved and married here after her surviving her ordeal. She and her first husband were still newly weds. Her son published a book based on her memoires which was titled "I'm Going to See What Has Happened." Which were the last words she ever heard her husband speak. I have a copy of this book, and I also sent away for a copy of her marriage license which was on file at the Hancock County Courthouse. I was in awe when I realized a survivor had lived here!

(sorry for all the edits. My fingers are not cooperating with me today.)

Thanks for the story!
I've 4 edits to my credit today already- we're in the same ballpark.
Ah Spring!

Is this the book by Janet White? I got to know Elin's son, Gerald Noummi and his lovely wife Jane. We met in Philadelphia back in 1989 and made a cruise together on the QE2 in 1991. We went to Halifax to dedicate some gravemarkers, for victims who were recently identified. Halifax is an amazing city with its Titanic connections and the great Bedford Basin explosion disaster. The marine museum of the North Atlantic has some Titanic artifacts worth the trip to see.

Shelley @ Sun Apr 08, 2007 9:58 pm wrote:Is this the book by Janet White? I got to know Elin's son, Gerald Noummi and his lovely wife Jane. We met in Philadelphia back in 1989 and made a cruise together on the QE2 in 1991. We went to Halifax to dedicate some gravemarkers, for victims who were recently identified. Halifax is an amazing city with its Titanic connections and the great Bedford Basin explosion disaster. The marine museum of the North Atlantic has some Titanic artifacts worth the trip to see.

The very first information I came across concerning Elin being from Weirton was found while reading a book that I purchased called Titanic Women and Children First by Judith B. Gellar. Beginning on page 152 the stories of a few of the Finnish third class passengers are offered. Elin's story was first. In this book it states that "Gerald Nummi worked on the book about his mother's journey to America for many years, but died before its completion. Janet White stepped in to finish it, and the result, I'm Going To See What Has Happened, tells Elin's story and those of the other Finns on the Titanic." It explained that Elin had lived in Weirton for a time after the disaster , worked as a seamstress, and met her second husband Emil here. Emil was employed at the tin Mill at the Weirton Steel company. Her son Gerald was born here in 1920. In 1926 they moved to Warren, Ohio. I was very awed to know a survivor had lived here. Titanic is another one of my great passions and has been for many years. I have a pretty extensive library of books on this subject. I was very glad to add this particular book to it. This was my very next book purchase. I'm Going to see What Has Happened has a copyright date of 1996. Although a picture of their home in Weirton is included in the book, I have never been able to locate it if it still exists today. But now that I have been thinking about all this again, it might be a good time to start this project back up.

Another Titanic family with Warren connections are the Wicks. I went to visit Warren and the Wick home is still standing. Janet White is from Girard.
http://www.encyclopedia-titanica.org/item/1206/ (an article on Ohio victims)

Judy Geller is a great gal, wife of the CEO of RMST, the company which salvaged artifacts from 1987-2003, many of which are on tour. Her approach to a book from the point of view of the women and children was fresh, and the photographs, many borrowed from the archives of TIS and its members, are superb.

I was looking for something else and came across this link.
You'all probably already know about it. Just thought I'd throw it in.

http://www.gov.ns.ca/nsarm/cap/titanic/text.asp?ID=1

This story says that the entire passenger list, and professions of every passenger aboard the Titanic is available for free for 1 week from today at findmypast.com

http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20070414/tc_ ... titanic_dc

My 7th grade teacher at Dartmouth Middle School, a Miss Daly always told the story that she survived the sinking of the titanic as a child.

Today, April 14, 2007. is the 95th anniversary of the Titanic striking the iceburg. It sank on the 15th.

It is also the 142nd anniversary of Lincoln being shot at Fords Theater. He died the following day on the 15th.

this is reportedly the iceberg that sank the Titanic 95 yrs ago.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Titanic_iceberg.jpg

The same picture is in one of my books on the subject. I haven't looked at the wiki link, but if I remember correctly from the book it was speculated this was the one because there was some paint transfer visible on the iceberg. Thanks for providing the link SteveS. I think today is the day to stop and remember all the souls who were lost due to the sinking of this great ship. When watching television episodes or documentaries which show the wreck as she lay today under the ocean depths, I find it especially haunting when the camera pans across such items as shoes laying side by side on the sea floor. Or other such personal items as a pair of eyeglasses. Concerning items that are salvaged from the wreck it is never the pots and pans, dishes, bottles of wine, menu's, or any of the other like items that interest me. Rather it is the very personal items such as handwritten letters, eyeglasses, jewelry, watches stopped at the time of the sinking, something personally owned by someone aboard, that interests me the most. These items tell a kind of story about the person who owned them. These are the items which invoke a feeling of awe and reverence in me.

I read on AOL that the complete list of passengers names were released for the first time online.
It is supposed to be free for a week on
findmypast.com