Lizzie Borden Society Forum

Am I the only one that thinks that Lizzie did it? I admit that I've got a lot of "research" to sift through, but my goodness-her inquiry alone was all over the place.

Morse stated she had bits of "sudden sullenness". Well, that sounds like depression to me. Maybe even bi-polar. Who knows? She didn't have many friends. She didn't have many options. What does that lead to?
boredom.

Look what happened to Salem when a few girls got bored?

Lizzie was too young for hormonal problems. But she was known to be
a bit off, which one could speculate she had mental issues. Her sister probably always kept her "in check", but didn't this time because she was
out of town. Lizzie's touchstone was gone.

I think perhaps the stepmother was always a scapegoat of sorts for Lizzie's anger. (Which is puzzling, since she was her mother since she was two -- who was feeding all of this hatred into her???)
I think she could have flipped out that morning on her stepmother, and planned to leave the house quickly to dispose of the weapon and give herself an alibi.

But her father came home early that day. I think her father ended up being collateral damage -- one she hadn't planned on killing but in the end had no choice.

Too far fetched?

Few things are too far fetched for this case! I don't think Lizzie killed her parents (well...her father and *not her mother*), but there are many who believe that she did.

As for the inquiry, I try to keep in mind that Lizzie was regularly dosed with morphine throughout the inquiry/trial, so her testimony would not be very cohesive. Also, she would have been in a state of chronic shock, I think, having been through the brutal murders and the public and private scrutiny and legal proceedings. Chronic shock can alter ones perception and mental acquity --- not make someone *dumb* so much as giving them a blunted affect and making them seem aloof and detached, and disrupting clarity of thought. (sorry -- I am a counselor...lol). It makes me wonder when I read contemporary accounts that make Lizzie out to be some sort of ice princess; surely she was in a state of chronic shock, unresolved grief, and opiates.

I believe Lizzie killed her parents. To me, it's very clear. Who else had motive? Who else had opportunity? Some people believe that, because someone else COULD have committed the crime, he/she did. I prefer to believe that the person with the greatest motive and opportunity committed the crime - kind of like OJ Simpson. But, then again, this is just my opinion. In fact, everyone on this forum can only state our opinions. After all, none of us was there.

What became of the axe

I don't think Andrew *came home early*- in fact, I doubt if he would have even gone out at all, or for very long at all until Lizzie gave him a letter to mail. I think if she did that to get him out of the house, surely she knew he wouldn't be gone long because he hadn't planned on going to the post office?
He had a reputation of being at home for business for drop-ins. That might be from 11 to noon.
Where do we get the info that Morse said Lizzie had "bits of 'sudden sullenness?' " I ask because it's in quotes.

There are some members who think Lizzie didn't do it- but I don't think they post much because they've been outnumbered.
Personally, I have yet to make up my mind. I like to think of it either way- but don't often get the chance.

I, too, believe that she killed her parents. She was the only one, other than Emma, that had reason to kill her parents. Personally, I think too, that Emma had some thing to do with it too. Emma had enough senxe to be out of town at the time of the murders.
The thing that always bothers me is that the police didn't really check out Emma's alibi. I mean, just because she was out of town visiting, doesn't mean she didn't have anything to do with the murders. She could have planned or talked with Lizzie about the killing of the parents. Neither one of them liked Abby.

Some theorize that Lizzie, Emma, and Uncle John were involved in a plot to kill the Bordens before Mr Borden changed his will (to one more favorable to Abby and less favorable to Lizzie and Emma). Then they hired someone to actually commit the crimes, arranging for this person to have access to the home and to have a great deal of money thereafter. I could see Lizzie and John Morse heading up something like this... but Emma seems so...*Victorian* I guess. I don't think she could have agreed to it. Her personality (as much as we know of it) seems too conventional, but perhaps we don't know enough of her to say.

One of my favorite books (Women Who Kill by Ann Jones --- tabloidy title but a good book) has a section on Lizzie. Her descriptions of Victorian life for women --- especially unmarried ones--make me shudder.After reading of the layers of clothing, the stifling heat, and the even more stifling ennui... I was ready to do some killing of my own. Just kidding. But it does rather set the stage for an outburst of violence.

*Sigh*. Maybe I am a fence sitter. I don't believe Lizzie did it, but I can fully understand why she seems the most likely contender.

My bad about the quotes...the way the New York Herald reported (August 7, 1892) under the title: Mrs. Borden Was Dead A Full Hour Before Her Husband Came --

Mr Morse was asked about whether or not it was true that Lizzie came to visit him in New Bedford a week before the murders. He vehemently denied it, then the article states:

Mr. Morse admitted that there had been ill feeling between Mrs. Borden and her step-daughters but he would not discuss that matter further. Lizzie he said was a peculiar girl, often given to fits of sullenness.

The article's author goes on to describe Lizzie herself:

One thing is certain. She has a wonderful self-possession. When with Dr. Bowen she stood by her father's body, when her mother was discovered murdered, at the time of the funeral, and on all other occasions since the story began she has manifested, they say, almost unshaken calmness.


Kat, it's interesting what you said about Andrew never intending to be away long. LeeAnn spoke about the fact that Andrew had a bank meeting, which ended short because he wasn't feeling well. But I can't remember if I read that somewhere, too.

Mbhenty-I have no answers for the axe (?), other than to say she may have moved it several times. I get the strong feeling that she acted alone. I remember reading about the burning of the dress, the neighbor describing how she was taking pieces of it from the cupboard. I wonder what else had been hidden in the cupboard?

Thanks for the source of the quote!
But that item also seems to imply that Lizzie stood with Bowen at her father's body but we've never heard she did that. I also think that article exaggerated her *calmness.*
I think it's been elicited in court that Lizzie had tears and also that she kissed her father Saturday morning.
What I'm getting at is taking these early reports with a grain of salt.

I believe Andrew missed a business meeting on Wednesday by staying home sick.
Do you have the preliminary hearing?

If I'm wrong about any of this, someone please correct me?

terrie, I'm a fence-sitter too. There are times I don't want to think that Lizzie actually used that hatchet. Besides, if I felt I knew for sure, I don't think I could post about the crime for 7 years.

Maybe I've read too much modern forensic information, but it is very hard for me to believe that a person close to or in the family (Lizzie, Emma, Uncle John, or Bridget) could have committed such a horrific crime and then gone on to live out their lives without ending up in an asylum. Whoever did this must have been plagued with memories, flashbacks, nightmares and other horrors. I think someone who was in that family would not have been able to carry it off and not have others (maybe years later) know. Emma had friends, so did Lizzie... but none who have known them to act very suspiciously over the years (except for Lizzie being eccentirc, according to some). Bridget had a husband. John Morse had a daughter, didn't he? But no one has ever come forward to attest to any of the key players being delusional or having fits (as one might consider a panic attack or a genuine flasback). It just doesn't add up to their guilt, in my opinion.

Also -- I have worked many years with criminals and one of the first things they say is *never trust anyone else with your secrets*. That is, if I kill someone, the more people who know about it, the greater my chances of being caught. Sometimes you can trust one confederate, but you are really pushing it. Someone is very, very likely in the end to put all the cards on the table, and then you are done for.

The same goes for after the crime. If I act suspiciously and I am in any way related to a murder, someone is going to squeal. I just don't see that in this case.

I stay on the fence but I admit I lean to not guilty. I have the most trouble accepting that Abby was killed as early as is stated in most accounts. I believe blood coagulates pretty fast, and I don't believe they can narrow a time of death down close enough to say if it was one, two, or three hours, but can say that a time period is a range of probabilty.

I found this article which points to all the factors involved in calculating time of death.

http://www.dundee.ac.uk/forensicmedicin ... edeath.pdf

Regarding Lizzie's demeanor, it is so hard to interpret because so many people grieve differently, and so many put on a hard front that is a way to cope in order to maintain composure.

Patsy- Great article link - Thanks

I too have problems believing Abby was killed that early.

If the room Abby was in was warm, wouldn't that have an affect on the amount of time for the blood to coagulate?

Hi Cheryl, welcome to the Forum! Personally I vacillate between Lizzie killing her parents and someone else doing it. But, even if someone else was the murderer, I feel that Lizzie knew about it and never spoke a word.

Wait a minute! Morse had a daughter?
Seriously tho- that is not true- but he did have a busybody niece who would visit him in Iowa, and she made out pretty well in the will, and in the court rulings.
It was the same niece who was visiting Fall River during the murders. Wonder why we never looked at her or her brother? Of course, they probably were never considered heirs to Andrew Borden or Abbie Borden- they would've had to be paid.

It's nice now and then to talk about the case with those who are either fence-sitters or think Lizzie could not have swung the hatchet.

What's the time frame here that you guys think Abbie could have been killed in and her body still present as she did?

I'm firmly convinced that Lizzie did it. The first account of the case I read was Edward D. Radin's, which blamed Bridget. I believed that at first, though there were some lingering doubts. Reading Lincoln and Sullivan changed my mind. The evidence against her was overwhelming. One or two points might have other explanations, but not a whole constellation of them.

...the way the New York Herald reported (August 7, 1892) under the title: Mrs. Borden Was Dead A Full Hour Before Her Husband Came --

--Cheryl

Is that from The Sourcebook?

First off, thanks so much to all of you who responded! It gives me some idea at this point what most people theorize. I guess it's about 60-40 in
favor of fence-sitters/not guilty.

The newspaper account I got from the following website:

Famous Trials - Prof. Douglas Linder
www.law.umkc.edc/faculty/projects/FTrials/ftrials.htm

I truly believe Lizzie did it. From what I've read there seems to be so much pathology in that family, probably even more than we are aware of. Lizzie's oddness, the secretivenes of the family, the tension in the household, etc., plus all the contradictions she was caught in are just overwhelmng. And, dispite the fact that a lot of people don't like to hear this, I have deep suspicions about incest.

I think that Lizzie did it! The number of blows to Abbys head tells me that there was a lot of hatred that went into the attack. I think she killed her
father out of necessity. He would have known right away who killed Abby
and therefore she had to kill him. If she did not kill her father she would
have been sent to the gallows for sure.
As for the incest, I believe that Emma was a victim of incest, not Lizzie.
I believe it happened between the time Sarah died and Andrew's wedding to Abby. She was 12 when sarah died and that is right around the age that happens.
I believe that Emma knew what was going to happen and that's why she got out of town. I also think that John Morse was involved. I think he could have possibly killed Andrew after Lizzie killed Abby. I strongly believe he was involved. His alibi is too air tight. Almost rehearsed

I think that Lizzie did it! The number of blows to Abbys head tells me that there was a lot of hatred that went into the attack. I think she killed her
father out of necessity. He would have known right away who killed Abby
and therefore she had to kill him. If she did not kill her father she would
have been sent to the gallows for sure.
As for the incest, I believe that Emma was a victim of incest, not Lizzie.
I believe it happened between the time Sarah died and Andrew's wedding to Abby. She was 12 when sarah died and that is right around the age that happens.
I believe that Emma knew what was going to happen and that's why she got out of town. I also think that John Morse was involved. I think he could have possibly killed Andrew after Lizzie killed Abby. I strongly believe he was involved. His alibi is too air tight. Almost rehearsed

Is there a poll around here on this "Did she or didn't she?"

It has seemed so far to me that the "Lizzie Did It" contingent have far outnumbered those who think she didn't do it- but that may be because they post more. Sometimes there will be 1 against and 5 or 6 for her guilt on any given day. As I explained, I think the *didn't do it" bunch might feel outnumbered.

Put me on the list of people who think Lizzie did it. I've been over and over the available evidence and this is the only conclusion that makes any sense to me. For someone else to have gotten into that house, killed Abby, and then waited all that time undetected to kill Andrew just seems highly unlikely. How did they go about unseen and unheard by the other occupants? I've tried supposing someone else did the crime. There are just too many holes and impossibilities to my mind.

Even if we take Lizzie at her word that she spent most of the day in the kitchen waiting for her flats to get hot, how then did the killer get in and go past her without being seen? The front door was locked. How did he get upstairs? Bridget was also outside running back and forth to the barn for water. How did he move about the house, especially down the stairs, without being heard? Maybe he slid down the bannister. Lizzie claims to be standing at the window in the barn loft looking out at the back door at the time Andrew was killed. How would the killer get back out? This person would've had to execute the crimes with split second precision, be aware of all the movements other members of the household were going to make ahead of time, have hiding places mapped out providing for the locked doors, have a handy place to dispose of the weapon before leaving the home, move without producing a single sound while committing two violent axe murders, and be able to go about afterward undetected in broad daylight on a busy street after the crimes. I don't think it was possible for anybody else to have done it but Lizzie.

There was a poll on this forum in 2004. Go here for the results back then:

viewtopic.php?t=137

Perhaps it's time for another one. What say ye?

Harry @ Wed May 30, 2007 7:00 pm wrote:Perhaps it's time for another one. What say ye?

Why not?

It was brought to my attention that the 2004 poll was in the Privy which some of you are not entitled to enter yet so here were the results:

"Which of the following most closely reflects your current opinion,

Lizzie alone 7 - 31%
Lizzie with Bridget's help 5 - 22%
Lizzie with Morse's help 3 - 13%

Morse alone 0 - 0%
Morse with outside help 5 - 22%

William S. Borden 0 - 0%
Emma Borden 1 - 4%
Bridget alone 0 - 0%
Complete stranger 1 - 4%

Total Votes : 22"

15 of the 22 votes involved Lizzie, or 68%.

I will start a new poll outside the Privy.

I also, think Lizzie did it. Only she and Emma had a real motive for killing Abbie. And like another poster said the number of times Abbie was struck shows a great deal of emotion on the part of the killer. Shear hate. Lizzie also had the opportunity to kill both Abbie and Andrew. Emma was out of town. Other posters have tried to bring in another killer but so far I haven't seen any evidence to put the crime on someone else.

I would like to add that I do think Emma knew Lizzie did it. She may have even known before she left town. I also, think that Dr. Bowen and Bridget may have helped Lizzie in someway. I don't think they were directly involved. Just after the fact in maybe hiding evidence or simply not telling the police everything they knew. I also, think Morse knew Lizzie did it. But, I don't think he helped. He just figured it out. He could never prove it so, he kept his mouth shut and just stayed away from Lizzie and Emma.

I decided to find this info on the meeting Andrew missed, just to clear up my point about the *Andrew came home early Thursday* statement.

Kat, it's interesting what you said about Andrew never intending to be away long. LeeAnn spoke about the fact that Andrew had a bank meeting, which ended short because he wasn't feeling well. But I can't remember if I read that somewhere, too.

--Cheryl

If Lee-ann said that- I think she is not necessarily wrong, because if one relies on the Witness Statements only,that info is limited as to which day Andrew missed a meeting.
Once one reads the preliminary hearing, tho, one finds out more.
The main point is for us to get it straight as to which day he missed.

Here is Hart at the Prelim saying Andrew missed it Wednesday:

Preliminary Hearing
Page 203
ABRAM G. HART.

Q. (By Mr. Knowlton.) Abram G. Hart is your name?
A. Yes sir.
Q. You are the Treasurer of some Bank?
A. Yes sir of the Union Savings Bank.
Q. Where is that located?
A. No. 3 Market Square, as it is termed, the main street between what used to be the Market, now City Hall, and Bedford Street.
Q. Did you know Andrew J. Borden?
A. I knew him well for forty years.
Q. Was he associated with you in business?
A. He was President of the Bank during the year and a half that I have been its Treasurer, and sometime previous, two or three years.
Q. Did you see him on the morning of the day he was found dead?
A. I did.
Q. When did you see him?
A. In the bank at half past nine, as nigh as I can fix it. I did not look at the clock, but have reasons to judge, I think correctly, that was about the time.
Q. Did he come in when you were there, or did you come in and find him there?
A. He came in while I was there.
Q. How long did he remain there?
A. I should think about five minutes, not over that.
Q. Had he any habit, or custom, or rule about visiting your bank?
A. He had almost a daily custom of coming in there almost every day; occasionally he would miss a day.
Q. At any particular time?
A. Generally at about that time in the morning, but not always.
Q. Usually at that time, generally we will put it?
A. Yes sir.
Q. Usually remained how long?
A. He had no fixed time, sometimes two or three minutes, and then he has stayed there half an hour in conversation with me at different times.
Q. Did you see which way he went when he left your bank?
A. I did not.
Q. Did he appear to be in health?
A. I had a fancy he did not look well, if it is allowable, I might state what he said.
(Mr. Jennings.) I have no objection.
A. The day before there was a quarterly meeting of the Trustees at which he being President would undoubtedly have been present were it not for some good and important reason. When he came in he said he was not present yesterday because he was not well.

Page 204

Q. You say you did not think he looked well that day?
A. No sir, well I just had that fancy, that he did not look strong.
Q. He was a man who walked without a cane?
A. Yes sir, walked without a cane.
Q. Not then enfeebled with age?
A. No sir.
Q. That is the last time you saw him?
A. Yes sir, he was in after that, but I was out. I know he was in, by the word that came to me.
__________

In The Witness Statements there is this, which doesn't elaborate on which day:

Page 29
Fall River, August 7, 1892.
Andrew J. Borden visited the Union Saving Bank about half past nine A. M. Thursday, and explained to Mr. A. C. Hart the reason of his (Mr. Borden’s) inability to attend a meeting of the Board of Directors which be said was because he did not feel well. He remained but a few minutes, and went north from the bank. He was alone when he came and went away from the Bank.

_________

I also can't say for sure that Andrew never intended to be away long on Thursday- I mean that since he had been given a letter by Lizzie to mail that she wrote Thursday, that would keep him away longer than if he had not gone to the post office.

The quote from the Witness Statements may not require elaboration as to which day. It was clearly the morning between the Board of Directors meeting which Andrew missed due to illness and Andrew's death, a Thursday to be exact. Out of the very few possibilities for this combination of events, how many would be pertinent to the murder case?

Cheryl @ Mon May 28, 2007 3:32 pm wrote:Am I the only one that thinks that Lizzie did it? I admit that I've got a lot of "research" to sift through, but my goodness-her inquiry alone was all over the place.

Morse stated she had bits of "sudden sullenness". Well, that sounds like depression to me. Maybe even bi-polar. Who knows? She didn't have many friends. She didn't have many options. What does that lead to?
boredom.

Look what happened to Salem when a few girls got bored?

Lizzie was too young for hormonal problems. But she was known to be
a bit off, which one could speculate she had mental issues. Her sister probably always kept her "in check", but didn't this time because she was
out of town. Lizzie's touchstone was gone.

I think perhaps the stepmother was always a scapegoat of sorts for Lizzie's anger. (Which is puzzling, since she was her mother since she was two -- who was feeding all of this hatred into her???)
I think she could have flipped out that morning on her stepmother, and planned to leave the house quickly to dispose of the weapon and give herself an alibi.

But her father came home early that day. I think her father ended up being collateral damage -- one she hadn't planned on killing but in the end had no choice.

Too far fetched?

I have always thought that maybe she had some kind of depression, like bipolar. Or maybe a mild form of epilipsy. There is a form of epilipsy that you can actually function while having a seizure. You just don't remeber what you did at the time that you had the seizure. It almost looks like you are staring in to space or something. That might account for why she gave different statements as to what and where she was at and doing.

She might have been aliittle depressed because she knew she had epilipsy, and back then, that was considered a mental illness. That might have been upsetting her, and then to look at her stepmother, not likiing her to well, and knowing that her father gave her stepmother's sister some property that Lizzie felt belonged to her, she snapped.

It just speculation, but I do believe she did it too.

Yooper @ Sat Jun 09, 2007 10:41 am wrote:The quote from the Witness Statements may not require elaboration as to which day. It was clearly the morning between the Board of Directors meeting which Andrew missed due to illness and Andrew's death, a Thursday to be exact. Out of the very few possibilities for this combination of events, how many would be pertinent to the murder case?

It's good to be precise, because the witness quoted said Andrew did not look well Thursday either. So that makes the date Andrew missed the meeting ambiguous. Knowing, with further reading, that it was Wednesday, at least clears that up.

I think if Lizzie had these problems she might not have been able to go on that 19 week European trip. I think her friends she was with for so long a period of time, over trying sea voyages, would probably know in that time if something was *wrong* with her. Her father might have balked at letting her go.

To be clear, I don't think the girls could in any way lay claim to losing *ownership* of Abby's family home that was the basis for the falling out. Maybe the money going out of the Borden coffers, but they never had an interest in the Gray house on Fourth Street.

patsy @ Tue May 29, 2007 3:38 pm wrote: I have the most trouble accepting that Abby was killed as early as is stated in most accounts.

I know this post was written a long time ago; but I'm trying to read some of the old posts to catch up on what has been discussed previously.

Regarding the quote above, I think it would be very odd that Abby was killed later than 9 AM or 9:30 AM. She was making the bed in the guest room. I can't imagine her waiting any later in the day to do that since I imagine it would have been considered inappropriate to leave a bed unmade that long.

Am I thinking clearly?

Harry @ Wed May 30, 2007 6:16 pm wrote:It was brought to my attention that the 2004 poll was in the Privy which some of you are not entitled to enter yet so here were the results:

"Which of the following most closely reflects your current opinion,

Lizzie alone 7 - 31%
Lizzie with Bridget's help 5 - 22%
Lizzie with Morse's help 3 - 13%

Morse alone 0 - 0%
Morse with outside help 5 - 22%

William S. Borden 0 - 0%
Emma Borden 1 - 4%
Bridget alone 0 - 0%
Complete stranger 1 - 4%

Total Votes : 22"

15 of the 22 votes involved Lizzie, or 68%.

I will start a new poll outside the Privy.

Harry,

This is great information. I haven't run across the newer poll yet but am looking forward to it.

Regarding Morse, I really do believe that something is very fishy with him. It's just interesting that he was so prepared with his alibi information with details that no one should have been able to recall (streetcar numbers, conductor into, etc.), not to mention walking around in the yard eating pears when there was obviously something of significant importance going on inside the house when he returned. Very strange.

Here it is, Robb:

viewtopic.php?t=2814

Again Lizzie wins in a landslide, being involved in 75% of the opinions.

I try to ask what their "current" opinion is as opinions on this case do seem to evolve over time.

Thanks, Harry for the link. I know I'm a little late; but I voted anyway ... Lizzie with Morse's help. As much as I have always hated to admit it, I think Lizzie must have been involved; but I think Morse was also. And yet ...

Even though people always say that Bridget would not have had sufficient motive and would not have wanted to lose her job, I believe there have been lots of murders committed that were even less logical. Washing those windows may have sent her over the brink.

Apparently, next to Lizzie alone, a lot of people think it may have been an outsider. I think that's the least logical explanation ... too many difficulties related to time, access, etc.