Lizzie Borden Society Forum

many in the "lizzie is innocent" crowd seem to make a big deal that morse seemed not at all surprised that when he returned there was a crowd of spectators and police at the house.

what is the evidence of this? who and how many reported his behavior?

but if morse taking his time is true, then:
after reading the "mental illness" thread, i thought of something interesting: if there WAS a plot to institutionalize lizzie against her will that morning, maybe morse took his time going in because he assumed from the gathered crowd that there had been a "scene", and he was perhaps taking his time going inside because he was delaying facing the drama in the house?
just a dumb idea.

Well, first of all, libby (and you’ll excuse this I hope) there’s no such a thing as “just a dumb idea.” Yours is actually an excellent question. Regarding the possible existence of such a plot – and I will say here that the only person for whom I speak in this regard is myself – the trouble is that there’s little hard evidence of that.

For sake of your question though I can only say this: If I were uncle John and suspected (or knew that such plot did exist and was to be executed that morning) I might have lolled awhile under the trees too in an effort to gauge the situation, so to speak.

The thing that’s always amazed me about Morse’s behavior that day was the fact that afterward he was able to say explicitly exactly where he was and whom he saw at such and such a time, and so forth. The information I’m referring to here is at page 3 of the Witness Statements, if you have them. (If you don’t yet have them, they and other things may be had from http://lizzieandrewborden.com/Resources ... uments.htm )

But at the trial ten months later, there was none of the precision of the previous August. He answered a give us your age, Sir sort of question with "about 60." That's one of the milder examples, but there are several others similar to it in his trial testimony.

Welcome to the forum, by the way.

i'm not at all supposing that the crowd outside the house at the time of morse's arrival was that huge that his non-reaction was suspicious. i am genuinely curious as to what credible evidence exists as to the activity around the house at the time of his arrival.

his memory for the numbers of the streetcar (?) he took and on the driver's cap doesn't really give me pause, though. it's exactly the type of thing i would remember about my day, when pressed.

also i'm not very suspicious of morse because i just can't see his motive to be involved. he did not profit from the murders, nor did he need to, as far as i know. and i think he valued andrew as a brother-in-law and business advisor. abby may have been annoyed when he popped in, but that hardly justifies murder.

i can, however, see him covering up his suspicions about lizzie after the fact. would he have his niece hanged on suspicion alone? i doubt it.

not knowing his true age doesn't surprise me either. i have known plenty of late 20th century immigrants who don't know exactly how old they are.


does anyone know how much contact morse had with emma or lizzie after the trial?

If you go to the "Who Did IT?" poll you will find there are only 7 members who voted that someone other than Lizzie did it. There are 26 who think she did, in some way or in concert with others.
So the *crowd* of those who think Lizzie did not do it is rather small.
viewtopic.php?t=2814&postdays=0&postord ... viewresult

If you would like to know the size of the *crowd* outside the Borden house around the time Morse returned, if you have source documents you can make a timeline and figure out about how many were outside then and let us know?

doug: yeah, i know there's no real evidence of lizzie being plotted against, but the theories in the "mental illness" thread are certainly fun!

and, like you said, if morse were expecting drama at the house that day, well, a few pears would quell any anxiety!

kat: i was hoping that perhaps there was another thread and/or documents or a book that could answer the "crowd" question a little better for me. i mean, one man's "crowd" is another's "two or three gawkers."

to the source documents!!! (there goes my day off!)

You know, I am not terribly puzzled by Morse's behavior. When he returned, it must have been obvious that something pretty awful was happening inside the house. He strikes me as not at all the sort to hurry in to the midst of a scene... I think that eating the pears was a way to stall his inevitable entry into the house and its (yet unknown) chaos. Maybe he was an extremely private man and was bracing himself somehow? Or maybe he was eccentric and had his own way of dealing with emotinally compelling events (which were sure to await him inside the house, what with all the goings on in the vicinity).

I hadn't thought of the *let's put Lizzie away* idea...it is very interesting. I remember when I was a teen, my (younger teen) niece came to stay with us. Her behavior was pretty outrageous. One day my mom put a brochure on the bulletin board about a nearby military school ... my niece had a sudden change in attitude, and her behavior strangely improved. Such suggestions can be very compelling.

I have always believed that John's casualness was an indication, to me, that he knew something ahead of the killings. His alibi was too pat for my taste. I feel he was "in the know" about something.

Welcome aboard Libby!

-1bigsteve (o:

Uncle John always seemed like he knew something was up. If I was staying with relatives and came back to find a bunch of people/police around, I would be extremely interested in what was going on. I doubt I'd mill around outside eating pears.

Of course, if he was outside rehearsing his alibi, he obviously had a good idea of what might have happened........and why....

libby @ Wed Jun 20, 2007 1:17 pm wrote: i mean, one man's "crowd" is another's "two or three gawkers."
(there goes my day off!)

I have always had to wonder just how sizable the "crowd" actually was at the time of John Morse's return. The behavior he exhibited has never warranted suspicion on my part. If he was a very private person it is possible public displays of any kind could probably have made him uncomfortable. So if there was a crowd gathered he may not have been in too much of a hurry to get inside no matter what the cause proved to be. He probably figured a gathering in front of the Borden home could not lead to any news that was positive. Andrew Borden was definitely a very private man. John may have been outside just trying to get his barings as suggested in the post above. Or it may be possible that the cause of his visit may quite well have lead to the murders, and he knew it. But I do have to question exactly how many people were in this "crowd".

Maybe someone will come back with an answer.

When we drove up to the house a few years ago, our member Augusta, and her husband and son were standing outside awaiting us, and one other person = 4, and it looked like a crowd to me, seriously. It surprised me.

Harry and I have talked this over and we thought just the amount of people who lived or worked on Second Street who might have stepped outside for air or for the noon respite from work and heard the news, could have totaled 50 or more in a very short time once word got out. I believe Morse arrived about/approx. 11:45 a.m.?
(Caveat- I am not speaking for Harry-he may have another opinion.)