Lizzie Borden Society Forum

Oh Thank You Kat! The Borden House is indeed one of the destinations...in fact, it is the number 1 creepiest destination.

Sorry ---I meant.... it is indeed the #1 destination :)

I think I already have this one Tivo'd

That explains why the phone rang so much at the house. One man in California woke me up at 3:45a.m. Fall River time to talk about ghosts. I was not amused. Every time that program airs, there is a deluge of calls.

I can't believe someone did that to you, Shelley!! 3:45 am!!!! To talk about ghosts?!?!?!

I guess every job has it's annoyances

Oh, I think all of us who work there could write a BOOK on strange people, phone calls, and occurances at #92. I think some folks feel that the place is a hotel, staffed 24 hours a day, with a front desk person, so they feel they can call at any hour. Usually the phone answering machine picks up after 1 a.m., but I always sleep with the phone on the nightstand so when it rings, I pick it up. Yes, there is a certain measure of hilarity lying in the dark, in one of those rooms, talking to a disembodied voice on the other end somewhere in the night on the other side of the country, and picturing what Bridget would have said in this same room. It's a funny world to be sure.

It's funny- I picked up certain feelings or vibes in different parts of the house, but not once did I feel that there is any trace of Lizzie left there. I have a feeling that once she was done with that part of her life and she left that house she didn't look back once.

Well, I agree with that. She didn't want to be caught alive in that house- so surely she wouldn't want to be caught dead there!

...

Hehehehehe...good one, Shelley!

I have to admit I DID pick up very heavy vibes in the house. I'm convinced I could never sleep there.

I felt exactly the same way until I thought it through and realized that a number of families lived there for years and years with no problems, and then I saw how I was letting my imagination get away from me.

What I felt was not ghostly, but a dense intensity of emotion.

What I can compare it to is a friend of mine who had met the love of her life in her late 50s. They were married for only two years. Shortly before Xmas 2005, they had some sort of quarrel about their Xmas tree. In the morning, she found he had died during the night. I was one of the 1st people she called & she had me come over...it's just a block from where I work.

The emotional state that she was in & the atmosphere that pervaded was very much like what I felt at the Borden house. Absolute despair.

I think it would drive a person crazy to have to pick up on that emotional intensity for more than a brief time. I can't image trying to sleep & feeling that...

I agree that places can soak up the events which transpired within them. Certain places in England, gloomy old castles, dark stately homes, and even places outdoors which I have visited, can have a resonance of times past, laden with residual energies. Although America is such a new country, there must still be these little niches in space which are filled with the vestiges of past drama. The Borden house, like the city is best appreciated alone, at night when the house is still and empty. To sit quietly in the sitting room, in the red velvet chair and listen to the sounds of the house, and to visualize in the mind's eye what transpired there- is to understand a great deal about the family and the case. I don't know if you want to call this "haunted" -or just "impressed with memories" of another time, but there is surely a residue of despair, conflict, unhappiness there. I have felt the same emotions when I am alone, walking the planking of the old abandonned mills. I suspect happy or sad, everything leaves a trail behind it for those who are sensitive and seek it.

It was weird, but when I first saw the guest room I felt like that, but the strangest thing gave me a feeling of comfort in there. That dress that belonged to Elizabeth Montgomery, for some reason, made me feel like there was no reason to be afraid of the vibes in that room. I don't understand it. It seemed to change everything.

Much to my surprise, I did not have the bad vibes in the guest room. The room I could not stand to be in was the sitting room.

I could not bring myself to sit down on that sofa.

I am editing here to change one word - from *despair* to dread.

When I got back home this trip I talked to our Stuart about my feelings and impressions and kind of downloaded to him- you could say he de-briefed me.
It was very useful in that I could collect my thoughts and impressions and begin to express them.

My feelings were all in Lizzie's room. I sat down in there in the dark before bed the first night after everyone had retired, or each was going to their own room. I was going in there to meditate but I lasted only about 2 minutes. It was dread. It was a feeling like *This has been and always will be* and as if it was a weight being carried (but the weight was smack in the middle of my chest)- and no end in sight. Stuart asked me if it seemed suicidal or fear of impending madness but I had to realize it was not that- it was just a feeling that someone could not go on one more second with no hope.
It really overwhelmed me and I left the room for my own room- which was Bridget's.

After that I had no urge to go into Lizzie's room.
When I was alone, each time I was alone, I blanked my mind and found myself walking thru the whole house over and over. Kind of like pacing- but room to room to room to room, up and down- but not the cellar. I kept ending up in the dining room pausing and staring east from just entering the doorway from the sitting room.
My mind was a blank- it was not a trance- just a pacing- like a waiting. I must have traversed the whole house room to room 3 or 4 times before going to the front door and opening it. At that moment, a mother and child passed the front steps in the rain and the mother -head down- did not notice me but the little girl looked up at me. Our eyes met and I made no smile- no welcoming face- and her eyes dropped back to the sidewalk and she trudged behind her mother in the rain, holding an umbrella- her look was finally like one who sought rescue but there was none. I closed the front door and continued to wander the House and felt like I had let the little girl down.
I started to think of Little Lizzie following behind Emma on the city streets, tryig to keep up- I saw Emma trudging those streets without looking around her like that mother- no interest in her surroundings- and Little Lizzie following behind, her natural childish curiosity stifled by decorum and her sour older sister's example and disapproval. Looking for rescue- no way out. That's what my impressions were.

What was it that you HEARD during your last visit, Kat? I'm not sure why I want to ask you that, but I do.

I strongly agree with the feeling of wanting to escape. I could not wait to get the heck out of that sitting room. Definitely there is a *feeling* in the house of being trapped.

I think anyone who spends time in there exploring those vibes must be braver than I am! I was only able to bear it very briefly.

The true feeling of claustrophobia, despair and frustration is abundantly evident if you go into what is Emma's room now, but which was the room Lizzie inhabited from age 12-30. Go in, close the door, and sit on the bed. When I do the tour of this room, I do this for the guests and they all say the same thing, "How awful to think this was all there was and would be". No privacy, no room to hang a picture, no air, -no space. Motive for murder? Try closing that door and imagining yourself caught in that space for 18 years with no prospects on the horizon, and after spending 19 glorious weeks in Europe, come back to it.

Interesting impressions of the house, especially after hearing from many people about how much more spacious and airy the house is than what they had originally thought. So there appears to be an underlying current of the need to escape, the need to flee the house within its very fiber.

I like your impressions of young Lizzie and Emma, Kat, it is often how I picture their relationship. Do you think that part of Emma's sour disposition may have been from being saddled with Lizzie from her promise to their mother? I think at times that Emma may have resented Lizzie; until Alice came along and Lizzie, Emma was an only child. For all we know, she may have been daddy's little girl, the one who had the special bond with Andrew until baby Lizzie showed up. Imagine being responsible for the care of the person who usurped your position in the world?

I think back to when I was young, and at the time being the only girl, was daddy's little princess. Then my sister was born, and though I never resented her for it, my position changed with my father forever. She was the baby of the family which made her special and she became daddy's new little girl, spoiled to nth degree. That really hurt being dropped like that.

Hmmm, perhaps Emma was also resentful of Andrew because of the similar situation? The idea of her being the one that poisoned Lizzie's mind against Andrew and Abby, she may have had a life time of hurts and resentments she never got over to share. Putting myself in Lizzie's shoes, I'd want to escape that house too!

I will think more on what you wrote Susan.
TK I will write you privately- hopefully tommorrow.
(You can remind me!)

To me, the hardest room to be in was Lizzie's...the larger room. My niece and I hung out there a little in broad daylight, but not much. We left our luggage there and left the lights on in there as we both piled into Emma's bed to *sleep*...lol.

I, too, had a sense of *okayness* in the guest room. The sitting room, to me, was a bit eerie (maybe becuase we watched the movie in it about Lizzie).

I know many people think the house is larger and more airy than they expected. I had the opposite reaction. To me, it seemed cramped and narrow and very claustrophobic. I stood in Lizzie's room, looking at the Kelly house next door (and pretty closely so) and was filled with dread, as Kat says. What a horrible sense of futility, of stifling, strangling, smothering, useless horror.

I have a silly confession to make. I was so spooked by the house that, even when I got home to my ain bed, I couldn't sleep. I tried to talk myself into sleep, and eventually nodded off... then heard a terrible series of shrieks... it was sort of like a turkey waddle, only higher pitched. I was wide eyed.... talked myself to sleep again... heard it again. I moved my luggage into the hallway, sure that I had brought some spirit back with me. Turns out, it was the belt on the air conditioning unit outside my window :)

I wish I would have closed all the doors downstairs when I was there to see if it felt different the way the Bordens seemed to have had it- all closed and locked. I think it probably would take on a whole different atmosphere that way. When I was there, it was a clear, beautiful, breezy day, with all the doors open, and a lot of the windows were open too, giving it a feeling of a fresh, summer day. The lace curtains were moving in the breeze and, of course, everyone there was so cheerful and fun. Imagine how it could be a hundred years ago with all the doors closed, cold dreary weather outside in the fall and winter, and stern, humorless, older people around.

There is a huge difference with the doors closed, at night, alone in the house in January. It feels like a funeral vault. Guests who stayed during the bad storm from last October had plenty to say at breakfast the next morning. This was the night the last big Maplecroft tree went down. The wind howled and whipped around the corners of the house as driving sheets of rain pounded the clapboard and the trees tossed like tortured beasts, throwing weird shadows on the backs of the window shades. Even I confess to being uneasy.

In the summer with sun streaming through the lace, chatty people all around, the air conditioner humming and snacks in the kitchen- it is quite different. Yes- quite another story.

I can't imagine how it must have been back then, especially in that house, during a long, cold, dismal winter. What on earth can one do to amuse oneself? We are all spoiled with tv, radio, stereos, video games and whatnot. What did they have? Nothing. Books, maybe, which, I am sure, were not as accessible as what we have now. Just a lot of long, empty quiet. And a lot of time to obsess.

I wish I would have closed all the doors downstairs when I was there to see if it felt different the way the Bordens seemed to have had it- all closed and locked.

--Angel

Please excuse - If you mean downstairs, the doors might have been closed, but not locked- that's if you mean the interior. We thought the parlour was locked- at least I had thought that- but I don't think that has been shown to be true.
I think the square footage might be more than a regular 3 bedroom house, seeing as there is an attic and cellar. Adding those- my sense is of a pretty big house. Other places on Second Street had boarders, even Dr. Bowen's duplex. Even Mrs. Churchill, who was the daughter of a Mayor. I think the Bordens had it pretty good on that street.

Angel @ Thu Jun 28, 2007 8:14 am wrote:I can't imagine how it must have been back then, especially in that house, during a long, cold, dismal winter. What on earth can one do to amuse oneself? We are all spoiled with tv, radio, stereos, video games and whatnot. What did they have? Nothing. Books, maybe, which, I am sure, were not as accessible as what we have now. Just a lot of long, empty quiet. And a lot of time to obsess.

Well at least they had one another!!!!!
Sorry could not resist!!!!!

Susan @ Wed Jun 27, 2007 9:41 pm wrote:Interesting impressions of the house, especially after hearing from many people about how much more spacious and airy the house is than what they had originally thought. So there appears to be an underlying current of the need to escape, the need to flee the house within its very fiber.

I like your impressions of young Lizzie and Emma, Kat, it is often how I picture their relationship. Do you think that part of Emma's sour disposition may have been from being saddled with Lizzie from her promise to their mother? I think at times that Emma may have resented Lizzie; until Alice came along and Lizzie, Emma was an only child. For all we know, she may have been daddy's little girl, the one who had the special bond with Andrew until baby Lizzie showed up. Imagine being responsible for the care of the person who usurped your position in the world?

I think back to when I was young, and at the time being the only girl, was daddy's little princess. Then my sister was born, and though I never resented her for it, my position changed with my father forever. She was the baby of the family which made her special and she became daddy's new little girl, spoiled to nth degree. That really hurt being dropped like that.

Hmmm, perhaps Emma was also resentful of Andrew because of the similar situation? The idea of her being the one that poisoned Lizzie's mind against Andrew and Abby, she may have had a life time of hurts and resentments she never got over to share. Putting myself in Lizzie's shoes, I'd want to escape that house too!

I've been thinking along the lines of astrology, tho some may not believe in such things.
But what I was thinking is that Emma was a Pisces, a water sign, and Lizzie a Cancer and water sign. You'd think they would get along pretty well. I think there might be times when they were out-of-step with each other but mainly due to the age difference.
But I think a Pisces might walk out rather than confront someone and then kind of hold a grudge about it- like they expect you to read their mind over it.
I could see Emma becoming soured and also keeping score in her head and then just cutting someone loose when they went one step further than they could countenance. But not telling the person. The person may never know!

So, do you get the feeling that is what happened when Emma left Maplecroft? That she may have spoke to others, like Rev. Jubb, about what was bothering her, but, not to Lizzie and then possibly just upped and left? My sister is a Pisces and I have found it true what they say about the "still waters running deep" thing. There is alot that goes on in her mind that doesn't show on the surface. She literally tries not to make waves and just goes with the flow.