Lizzie Borden Society Forum

Has anyone ever done any research on David Anthony? It would be terribly interesting to know something about him, his intereactions with Lizzie, what he did after the murders, etc.

I think if you search the archives you'll find some things, including genealogy about Anthony. When Gramma was around and the Ruby Cameron story was being discussed, there was quite a bit of David Anthony material, I recall.

Thank you

Angel, here is a thread which has a ton of info on the Ruby Cameron theory.

Kat did a mountain of great research on the whole story.

http://www.lizzieandrewborden.com/Archi ... ystory.htm

Note how at the end of the thread somehow Arnold Brown's theory comes up. Mmmmm.... wonder why.

Harry @ Tue Jan 22, 2008 11:32 am wrote:Angel, here is a thread which has a ton of info on the Ruby Cameron theory.

Kat did a mountain of great research on the whole story.

http://www.lizzieandrewborden.com/Archi ... ystory.htm

Note how at the end of the thread somehow Arnold Brown's theory comes up. Mmmmm.... wonder why.

Good information, thanks for the link, Harry. It might be interesting to compile any available "deathbed confessions" associated with the case to see if they mesh.

Actually, the reference to "Perry Mason" is very convincing more so than Arnold Brown, anyway!

What happened to David Anthony after the trial? Did he stay in Fall River? When did he die? What Hatchet magazine is all the material about Anthony? I'd like to order it. I found one that mentioned his name, but it looked like it was more about Ruby Cameron.

Angel @ Wed Jan 23, 2008 10:23 am wrote:What happened to David Anthony after the trial? Did he stay in Fall River? When did he die? What Hatchet magazine is all the material about Anthony? I'd like to order it. I found one that mentioned his name, but it looked like it was more about Ruby Cameron.

In the the thread in which Kat did some research we find that his niece said something about David coming from Fall River to visit. It appears he did stay in Fall River. Later was killed in a motorcycle accident. It would be great to find more about him.

Angel @ Wed Jan 23, 2008 11:23 am wrote:What happened to David Anthony after the trial? Did he stay in Fall River? When did he die? What Hatchet magazine is all the material about Anthony? I'd like to order it. I found one that mentioned his name, but it looked like it was more about Ruby Cameron.

There's a lot of David Anthony info there as well as investigating Ruby. Stefani got permission to re-print something in there I recall- and she paid money to do it! They thanked her because they said no one ever asks!
The issue is The Hatchet, October/November 2004. I really like that issue and collaborating between our Joe and our Diana!! I got to interview Dr. Williams too!
I love my job~!!

Kat @ Fri Jan 25, 2008 3:48 am wrote:

Angel @ Wed Jan 23, 2008 11:23 am wrote:What happened to David Anthony after the trial? Did he stay in Fall River? When did he die? What Hatchet magazine is all the material about Anthony? I'd like to order it. I found one that mentioned his name, but it looked like it was more about Ruby Cameron.

There's a lot of David Anthony info there as well as investigating Ruby. Stefani got permission to re-print something in there I recall- and she paid money to do it! They thanked her because they said no one ever asks!
The issue is The Hatchet, October/November 2004. I really like that issue and collaborating between our Joe and our Diana!! I got to interview Dr. Williams too!
I love my job~!!

Thank you, Kat. I just ordered two different print copies. Hope I picked the right volumes. EEK! I'd love to get them all.

..

Slater Mill, Pawtucket, RI

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Wow! Thanks for the postcards-- and for that wonderful photo.

Are there still Oct/Nov 2004 copies of the Hatchet available to order? If so, where?

All past issues are available two ways:

You can buy them in hard copy (color, B&W, or download) through LuLu.com at http://stores.lulu.com/peartreepress

Or you can purchase the individual copies as PDF files through the Hatchet site here

http://www.hatchetonline.com/HatchetOnl ... ptions.htm

Thanks. I just ordered it.

I just imagined another scenerio. Couldn't be proven, but what the heck: Lizzie and David (a much younger "kid" who never did a hard day's work in his life and probably liked Lizzie's future money, according to the way Andrew may have seen him) were carrying on (probably in the hayloft- that's why the pressed down hay) and Lizzie got pregnant. Andrew, in a rage, arranged for the good Dr. across the street to do a secret abortion a few weeks before the murder. Abby supported Andrew and helped force Lizzie into it by threats of disownment. Lizzie told David who went nuts and came over at 9 am to confront Andrew who slammed the door in his face. David loses it and comes in through either the side door or the basement seeking revenge. Lizzie is angry enough at her parents to let him do it. She takes the wrap to protect him and keep the secret. Dr. Bowen and perhaps Bridget know what happened so David is intimidated enough to lay low. Lizzie was so good at being secretive maybe she furtively saw him in later years, but his fear of being found out and maybe being disowned by his own parents kept him from making an honest woman out of her.

Angel -- That theory sounds better than some I have seen.

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Angel--I have lots of informal information about David Anthony. Charlotte Street was a Fall River business address after his uncle Charles W. Anthony and his brother Harold started working in Boston for Swift. He spent little time there.

David built a large Queen Anne, waterfront, at 98 Bay Point Avenue on Gardner's Neck in Swansea 3 years after the murders. It's no secret--it's on the National Register. His brother built a house nearby, also on Bay Point. This is a relatively short distance from the Borden's Swansea property which is comparatively modest. In addition to his bicycles and motorcycle, David had a yacht at least for a time. If there is any question why there is no Jr., it is because David M. Anthony--the father--died 4/18/1879.

http://www.archiplanet.org/wiki/Anthony ... sachusetts

I have had confirmation through informal channels that David did spend large periods of time at Ruby Cameron's family home on North Street in New Bedford. After the Anthony slaughterhouse closed, Ruby's father made sausages, for a time, from his own business at the North Street property. David helped him in his sausage-making endeavors, which were ultimately unprofitable. Ruby's father then became a painter for a short time and then a meat saleman before his death. I got this from a family member of the Cameron's undertaker, who was also a neighbor. I'm like a blue-collar Victoria Lincoln. I'm collecting more and more Lizzie stories. Hopefully, mine are more truthful (New Bedford directories do verify the sausage-making business, the painting, and a position in sales though not specifically meat sales or meat sales specifically for Swift).

Prior to the Borden murders, David's name never appears in the Anthony & Swift business advertisements in the City Directories. In 1893, however, David's name appears as Clerk. I've personally wondered if this was not an attempt to have David associated with management as opposed to the butchers who worked for them at their slaughterhouse.

I have not had an opportunity to search probate records to see if David had a will. I do not believe he died broke--if he did, it was because he spent it all. Refer to Rebello, pp. 270-272. David was supposed to have raced at Cottage City in 1892, just days before the murder.

Your scenario is very close to what I personally believe, at this time. The Trickey article was very close to the truth. Trickey, himself, was a wheelman like David. The claim that the people named in the article as having overheard the fight between Andrew and Lizzie regarding pregnancy could not be found in Fall River is true. My understanding is that they were old neighbors of the Bordens living in the north Westport/South Watuppa area. Another story which needs a search of state census records or property records to try to verify.

Deacon David Anthony, previously mentioned, is a more distant relative. He is not the grandfather of David M. Anthony Jr.

Kat--I've tried to present local people's stories as "stories" and NOT as proved facts. There's room for a lot more investigation.

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Angel @ Thu Feb 21, 2008 1:28 pm wrote:I just imagined another scenerio. Couldn't be proven, but what the heck: Lizzie and David (a much younger "kid" who never did a hard day's work in his life and probably liked Lizzie's future money, according to the way Andrew may have seen him) were carrying on (probably in the hayloft- that's why the pressed down hay) and Lizzie got pregnant. Andrew, in a rage, arranged for the good Dr. across the street to do a secret abortion a few weeks before the murder. Abby supported Andrew and helped force Lizzie into it by threats of disownment. Lizzie told David who went nuts and came over at 9 am to confront Andrew who slammed the door in his face. David loses it and comes in through either the side door or the basement seeking revenge. Lizzie is angry enough at her parents to let him do it. She takes the wrap to protect him and keep the secret. Dr. Bowen and perhaps Bridget know what happened so David is intimidated enough to lay low. Lizzie was so good at being secretive maybe she furtively saw him in later years, but his fear of being found out and maybe being disowned by his own parents kept him from making an honest woman out of her.

I like that theory. And it does sound better than some. Maybe they were seeing each other and even that drove Andrew nuts. I think Andrew was protective of his money, and didn't want Lizzie marrying just anyone, so he and Abby threatened disownment if they married. Then she gets pregant before marriage, and back then, that wasn't acceptable. Boy, if I'm not letting my imagination run away with me!!

OK, if this theory is correct -- how does it fit with Lizzie supposedly having her period end the day before the murders? When does a woman have her next period after an abortion?

I admit, I have no clue to what the answer would be.

As far as I know ,the first claim that Lizzie had a boyfriend and was pregnant came from the dubious article by McHenry and Trickey. Supposedly, they interviewed a Mrs. Chace and this is the story she gave them:

Mrs. Chace's Evidence

Mrs. Frederick Chace, wife of Frederick Chace, owner of the Chace mills at Fall River, and residing at 198 Fourth street in that city, will testify:

I have known Andrew J. Borden and his wife for over 15 years. On the 3rd day of August, 1892, early in the afternoon, I met Mr. Borden on Main street in Fall River, and talked to him a few minutes. He asked me to come over that night with my husband, and I promised him we would and I asked him how he and how Mrs. Borden were.

He said she was very well but he was troubled a great deal about what he had talked of previously, and he thought if I and my husband came over it would cheer him up a good deal. I told him we would certainly come and then left him. About 7:30 o'clock that evening my husband, my daughter, Mrs. Manchester, and myself arrived at the Borden house.

My daughter had come to our house for tea, her husband being away for a couple of days. It thus happened that she accompanied us to the Bordens'. She is very jolly, and Mr. Borden thought a good deal of her, and we thought she would tend to cheer the old folks up, which was another incentive for us to take her along.

We were accustomed to enter the Borden house by the back door, as we were well aware, and had been for a long time, of the condition of affairs in the family. As we went to the door Maggie or Bridget, as she is properly called, was on the stair-way and must have been coming down and stopped there, as we thought.

First we shook the screen door, and Bridget then came down toward us.

After we started up the stairs, intending to go to the sitting-room, we heard loud and angry voices in the dining-room, and above all heard Mr. Borden's voice. I was satisfied at once that the servant girl had been on the stairs listening to the quarrel.

The first words I heard were: 'You can make your own choice and do it tonight. Either let us know what his name is or take the door on Saturday, and when you go fishing fish for some other place to live, as I will never listen to you again. I will know the name of the man who got you into trouble.'

We felt awfully embarrassed, and turned around to each other, and I said to my daughter 'Fay', as I always called her, 'do go and get Bridget and send her ahead of us, as it would be awful to walk right in upon them.'

This I said in a whisper. Just then I heard Lizzie answer: 'If I marry this man, will you be satisfied that everything will be kept from the outside world?' Then Bridget came to us, and word was sent in to Mrs. Borden.

I said to my husband, referring to Lizzie: 'That girl will be the means of great trouble if she is not wise to-night.'


The problem with this story is Mr. and Mrs. Chace were never found to be real people who actually knew the Bordens. They never testified under oath in a court of law.


Andrew Jennings attempted to find them and this is what was reported in the papers:

The Evening Standard, New Bedford, Monday, October 10, 1892:
"A TISSUE OF LIES.
.......................
Lawyer Jennings Says the Boston Paper's Story Is False.
........................
Member of Fall River Police Force Asserts That It Is True.
........................
Names are Fictitious, But Statements Substantially True.
........................
Fall River, Oct.10.-- Andrew J. Jennings, counsel for the defendent in the Borden case, made the following statement to a correspondent to-day: The matter published in a Boston paper this morning relating to the murders of Andrew J. Borden and his wife [see second page] is a tissue of lies. I have endeavored to find out about Mr. and Mrs. Fred Chace, at the number indicated, 198 Fourth Street. There is not only no such number but not any within 50 of it. There is no such name George F. Sisson in the directory, nor can I find any person who knows anybody of that name. **The kernel of the whole malicious story deals with a condition which is absolutley disproved by things found in the cellar by the prosecution and admitted to be what Miss Lizzie claimed they were. Subsequent events have confirmed her claim. Mr. Morse says that the whole story is absolutely false, not a word of truth in it. The Reagan story has already been denied by Miss Emma and Miss Lizzie, and was admitted by Mrs. Reagan to be false by at least six persons."


When Ruth Waring, a relative of Anthony's, was asked about whether or not David was involved with Lizzie or not this is what she said:


Ruth Waring, who is related by marriage to Jenning's son-in-law, did reply to a query by the paper that she was shocked at the story, at the time, 1985. She was David Anthony's niece, Ruth, and she said of him.."I knew my uncle David very well. He was a shy, kind, gentle man, and I never heard anyone speak of any association with Lizzie Borden....We called him Uncle Dade...[he] loved the outdoors. He would come from Fall River to Swansea on his motorcycle many days. He had a cottage on the water and he would go sailing many afternoons. I can remember going with him."

"David played the violin. Ruth, a pianist, remembers playing with Uncle Dade. 'He was a master of the harmonica', Ruth said. 'I remember him as a very religious man. He belonged to the Methodist Episcopal Church in Fall River and later became a Christian Scientist.' "


I have always had doubts about this theory and still do. I know people "like" this theory but could it,please, be backed by some evidence.

Who is ruby, and what is her involvement with Lizzie? I am missing something here, as I am with the David Anthony. Can someone please explain, I'm probably am an idiot on this one. I'll keep looking too; just trying to find a contection.

bob_m_ryan @ Sat Feb 23, 2008 12:16 pm wrote:OK, if this theory is correct -- how does it fit with Lizzie supposedly having her period end the day before the murders? When does a woman have her next period after an abortion?

I admit, I have no clue to what the answer would be.

Who said it was the last day of her cycle? And, why couldn't it have just as well been the end of her bleeding after having had the abortion weeks before?Who would know the difference?

:,,

Feeding my dogs is never simple around here. I have to throw one outside first so he won't try to hog the others' bowls. Then I have to open up dry and canned food and mix them up for two dogs because they're spoiled rotten and won't eat just dry food. Then I have to open up a can of french string beans and mix half in each of the other two dogs dry food because they're on a diet and this is what the vet said to do. Then I have to open up two cans of cat food and put them on top of the refrigerator along with two cats because otherwise my very tall dog will abandon his bowl and try to steal the cats food. Then I have to sit down near them while they all eat or they won't eat, but will follow me around and ignore their food. I think they have me trained very well.

Angel -- I am sure I remember testimony that the Wednesday before the murders was the last day of her cycle. Both sides agreed that they would accept that fact and not go into the matter in the court. The single 'pinhead' size drop of blood on her undergarment was stated to be from her cycle.

Angel -- here's a link to the topic on her cycle and the bloody pail. I knew of this one because I have slowly been going through the archivve for the last few months.

http://lizzieandrewborden.com/Archive70 ... idence.htm

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bob_m_ryan @ Sat Feb 23, 2008 6:53 pm wrote:Angel -- here's a link to the topic on her cycle and the bloody pail. I knew of this one because I have slowly been going through the archivve for the last few months.

http://lizzieandrewborden.com/Archive70 ... idence.htm

What I was trying to get at was that Lizzie may have said it was the end of her cycle, but she could have only been saying that. She could have just as easily been finishing up the last of the bleeding from an abortion several weeks before. There was no one else who would be able to dispute that because she was the only one to have that personal info about herself.

Cynthia, I have always been interested in the Ruby-David Anthony story. I remember asking you specifically, too, for any schoolyard stories you grew up on in New Bedford. I ask that of people whenever I'm up your way. Different towns have different legends about our Lizzie, I've noticed.
I also usually have a motto of "where there's smoke there's fire" and I don't automatically believe or disbelieve anything I hear.

As for Lizzie's period- I do think the State would want to confirm that, by way of Lizzie in custody and the Matron arranging for future menstrual cycles. I'd think it was common sense that Lizzie's cycle would be confirmed while in jail. She would have to have her change of cloths and bloody bucket etc. maybe some aspirin for cramps? All they would have to do is count. Just my opinion- but the State did agree with the defense on that in court. Unless they conspired...

I do have a bit of a hard time believing an abortion scenario, especially in 1892.

Angel @ Sat Feb 23, 2008 6:02 pm wrote:Feeding my dogs is never simple around here. I have to throw one outside first so he won't try to hog the others' bowls. Then I have to open up dry and canned food and mix them up for two dogs because they're spoiled rotten and won't eat just dry food. Then I have to open up a can of french string beans and mix half in each of the other two dogs dry food because they're on a diet and this is what the vet said to do. Then I have to open up two cans of cat food and put them on top of the refrigerator along with two cats because otherwise my very tall dog will abandon his bowl and try to steal the cats food. Then I have to sit down near them while they all eat or they won't eat, but will follow me around and ignore their food. I think they have me trained very well.

You think yours are spoiled, I cook for my cat. She just loves baked cod in milk and butter. And it has to be whole milk, not the 2% milk. If that isn't spoiled, I don't know what is. LOL!

I've been thinking about this theory for a few days and went back and re-read some of the archives on the Ruby story.

From the article about the Chace family visiting Andrew and walking in on a scene...it sounds as if Andrew didn't know WHO the father of the baby was.

I have a hard time imagining Dr. Bowen performing an abortion. That was a dangerous procedure back then. I would think it would have been easier for Andrew to allow Lizzie to marry David Anthony and then wash his hands of her, rather than force her to have an abortion which might have killed her. Lizzie dying from an abortion would have been a major scandal, I would think...marrying a man of whom her father did not approve may have raised eyebrows, but would not have been out of the ordinary.

It's possible Lizzie had a miscarriage...which could have happened before the alleged visit by the Chaces...and Andrew was still at Lizzie to know who the father had been.

If Lizzie had had a miscarriage, she would have bled for several weeks...I am assuming....I never had one. Does a miscarriage cause less bleeding than childbirth? Anyone know? Perhaps Dr. Bowen had been called to assist in a miscarriage. If so, Andrew and Abby would have known...perhaps even Emma.

But definitely Bridget would have known...and perhaps that is one of the things that she held back.

Rolling the topic around in my head today, I began thinking of the cases, which seem like several in the past few years, where the girl has persuaded the boy to kill her parents so they can be together...or the boy has lost it and killed her parents so they can be together. Is it possible that Lizzie persuaded David Anthony to kill Abby and Andrew, promising him that they would be together once they were out of the way?

Obviously that didn't happen. But from Ruby's story, David still paid visits to Lizzie at Maplecroft.

Witnesses saw a woman coming back from the barn...and Dr. Handy's "wild-eyed man" in front of the Bordens. But no one apparently saw the meat truck "clean-up crew" that came for David Anthony.

These are just some thoughts...Gramma seemed so sure of the truth of Ruby's story...could Lizzie have had a miscarriage and then persuaded David to kill Abby and Andrew for her?

moved

You're not alone Snokkums, I'm not sure of them either. However, I plan on getting that issue of The Hatchet and also researching the archives.

Kat said

I do have a bit of a hard time believing an abortion scenario, especially in 1892.

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I'll try to get back to the library relatively soon. I know there were articles in the New Bedford paper about a local doctor who did abortions who was being censured/prosecuted (?) because of a woman's death. I came across it doing Lizzie research. I believe it was in the summer of 1892.

I made some notes on it at the time I read it (back in 2004), but I'm having difficulty locating them tonight. I'm starting to get my house ready for sale later this year. I'm pulling stuff out of closets, etc., to weed the junk out from the "keepers", if you know what I mean. Stuff everywhere!!! And the cats just love diving through it....

After I posted, I remembered. I was doing some research on the Christian Camp Meetings that were popular in this area during the summer months because I wondered if Lizzie had attended a meeting when she went to Westport with Carrie Pool to visit the Tripps.

My notes say the article was from Thursday, July 21, 1892. It appeared in the New Bedford Evening Standard.

My notes:
Dr. Ezekiel H. Noble (129 William St.) criminal abortion on Ella E. Hall of Fall River. "she died"

Also from my newspaper notes:
3rd Annual Mid-Summer Meeting of Bristol County WCTU 7/21/1892

If we believe that David Anthony did hang around at the Cameron's then we easily believe that Ruby might have had some things right. Well maybe not easily believe but kind of believe.

The abortion idea has crossed my mind or an idea of a miscarriage which could still evoke a lot of rage if it was thought that argueing with Andrew caused so much stress to cause it.

The Chaces were made up people. Maybe just the names made up but the Trickey-McHenry story of October was proven false in most particulars. We can at least explain that that story in the papers was never accepted. That said, if one reads it, they may decide some of it might have a kernal of truth.

Yes Cynthia, I recall we discussed that story you heard in the school yard when you were growing up- or at least you said that in school you had heard and remembered that Lizzie was thought to have had an abortion and that story stuck with you, more than any other.

SallyG's scenario of *why not marriage if there was a child on the way* makes sense to me- I was thinking the same thing.
And yes that has been the trend I noticed too- that the teenaged girl gets her boyfriend to kill her parents for her. The "Vampire Killings" which happened here in Florida and just revived on TV this past week, tells of a similar theme, altho the daughter got off.

Boy, the archives are so very helpful! I went back to 2004 when "Gramma" was posting and learned a lot about the David Anthony story. I wish I could see the pictures she posted of him on his motorcycle.

SallyG @ Sun Feb 24, 2008 6:05 pm wrote:
I have a hard time imagining Dr. Bowen performing an abortion. That was a dangerous procedure back then. I would think it would have been easier for Andrew to allow Lizzie to marry David Anthony and then wash his hands of her, rather than force her to have an abortion which might have killed her. Lizzie dying from an abortion would have been a major scandal, I would think...marrying a man of whom her father did not approve may have raised eyebrows, but would not have been out of the ordinary.

I have to agree with you on these points SallyG. I don't believe Andrew would've forced Lizzie to have an abortion at the risk of her own life. I also cannot see Andrew scouting out doctors for those that performed abortions. Or Abby either. Dr. Bowen performing it himself doesn't seem likely in my opinion. To me the whole idea of Lizzie being pregnant in the first place is hard to swallow. I do believe there was definitely something bothering Lizzie in the time directly proceeding the murders, however. I think if we analyzed her known movements and actions before the murders you can see this plainly. I'm just haven't really put my finger on what it was.

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We can guess until we're blue in the face, but we'll never know what happened. My latest thing is supposing that Lizzie confided in David that she was a victim of incest in her earlier days and Abby let it happen. David, in a fury, proceeds to off her parents and Lizzie stands by sort of liking it because she finally has someone to champion her. Maybe she wanted to do it herself but now someone else did and she got what she wanted as she stood by 'innocently."

:,,

Remembering what we posted, and keeping an eye open for anything that supports or contradicts us, and then putting in a correction is absolutely praiseworthy!

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I'm closing in on 11,000 posts here, with 20,000 more at previous Forums- I know what you mean!