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Go Fish - Uncle George Gives His Own View

Posted: Tue Feb 05, 2008 3:14 pm
by doug65oh
I found this little squidge last night. It’s one of the more interesting parts of a story that appeared in the Bangor Daily Whig and Courier (Bangor, Maine) 9th August 1892 pg. 1 col.4.

An interview with George B. Fish – Believes Miss Borden and Mr. Morse Hired Some One To Do The Deed

HARTFORD, Conn., August 8. - George B. Fish, of this city whose wife is a sister of the murdered Mrs. Borden, of Fall River, in a published interview to-day says that he believes Lizzie Borden and J. V. Morse concocted the deed and hired some one to do it. Lizzie and Emma Borden are step-daughters of the murdered woman and never have been on good terms with her owing to troubles over the division of a small property left by the girls’ mother to Mr. Borden who gave it to the second wife instead of the girls.
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It doesn't appear that Miss Borden was on "cordial" terms with uncles on either side of the fence. :lol: First, Hiram let her have it, then George Fish tells this story - although this Fish story does seem to be slightly more truthful than the yarn Uncle Hiram gave out.

Posted: Tue Feb 05, 2008 3:36 pm
by Tina-Kate
George Fish was Priscilla's (Abby's sister) husband.

This would be something else to add to the other thread about Lizzie not getting along with Abby's relatives.

Posted: Tue Feb 05, 2008 4:42 pm
by doug65oh
That's true. In a way it makes me think of think of that old saying "With friends like these..." except that it applies to family. :lol: The "Morse as conspirator" idea is interesting in light of what we know now (ie. that incredibly detailed accounting of where he was between the fatal hours.) Where Fish got that idea I don't know, but I'd suspect the newspapers. The same newspaper only a few days earlier carried a story that devoted a fair bit of space to John Morse, mentioned his connections to the Davis family, and so forth.

I don't mean to suggest that Mr. George B. Fish of Hartford was a devotee of the Daily Whig and Courier, but rather that if the story appeared there, it could well have appeared anywhere else.

The rest of his comment, however, does seem to ring true as a fairly simple statement of conditions as they were - he knew of the fuss and at least one reason behind it; I would suppose his source on that was Priscilla herself.

Posted: Tue Feb 05, 2008 11:37 pm
by Yooper
There were those who would have possibly benefited from Andrew's death if Abby had remained alive. Abby's family, for instance. I'll bet it drove Lizzie and Emma nuts! Literally!

Posted: Wed Feb 06, 2008 2:43 am
by snokkums
I can believe that Lizzie and Emma concocting the deed and hiring someone, but Lizzie and Jv morse?
What was the motive for John V Morse to want Andrew and Abby dead?

Posted: Wed Feb 06, 2008 4:10 am
by doug65oh
You've put a finger squarely on what seems to be the biggest problem with the Fish story, snokkums.

Posted: Wed Feb 06, 2008 5:05 am
by Fargo
Did Abby's sister's house originally belong to Lizzie's mother Sara ? I thought Andrew bought it after Sara died and gave it to Abby.

Is George Fish talking about a different piece of property?

Posted: Wed Feb 06, 2008 10:49 am
by Yooper
It sounds like either George Fish or the reporter got the story wrong concerning the Whitehead house, if that is the one referred to. Either that, or they got the story right if it had to do with another piece of property. Did Sarah leave an estate when she died?

Posted: Wed Feb 06, 2008 12:40 pm
by Harry
There are references to Mr. Fish in several newspapers.

The Aug. 9 issue of the Evening Standard had this to say:

"A Fish Story.

One George B. Fish, of Hartford, Ct., has sent out "his belief" that Miss Lizzie did not commit the deed, but she and Mr. Morse concocted the scheme and hired some one else to do it. He states that the daughters did not live pleasantly with Mrs. Borden and gives as a cause for this unpleasantness the division of some property which the girl's own mother had left to Mr. Borden, had given it to his second wife instead of to the daughters. The property was a small house valued at perhaps $1,000, etc. We have it on excellent authority that no such property ever existed, either in the form of a house or other property, and Mr. Fish's opinion is as worthless as bearing upon the case as his statements are unreliable.

This one appeared in the FR Globe, August 6, in an article which covered the funeral:

"... Among those who went into the house early was a Mr. Fish of Hartford Conn., who is a nephew of the deceased woman. Miss Lizzie received him with marked coldness of manner. ..."

So there appears to be some animosity before Mr. Fish expressed his opinion.

A lengthy article appeared in the same paper, Aug. 9. Here's the key parts:

MR. FISH'S BELIEF.
He Tells of the Differences in the Family.

HARTFORD, Conn., Aug. 9. – The Post this morning says of the Borden tragedy at Fall River: Mrs. Borden has a sister living in Hartford at 48 Bellevue street, although now absent in Fall River. She is the wife of George B. Fish, a yard tally man on the N.Y., N. H. & H. R. R. When a Post reporter called at the family residence this morning, he found that Mrs. Fish, her son, George H. Fish, and her grandson, Frederick S. Fish, were all in Fall River, but George B. Fish, her husband, was at home. ....

At the time the murder was committed his son, George H., and his wife, were visiting his wife's parents near Fall River, a Mr. and Mrs. Sperry, and upon the receipt of the news, went directly to Fall River. Mrs. Fish and her grandson went directly from Hartford. Mr. Fish was very willing to talk, although he knew but little except what he had read in the papers. He had thought the matter over and over again, and the more he thought of the more it seemed to him that Lizzie Borden was the guilty one. It seems that Mrs. Borden was not the real mother of the two daughters, Lizzie and Emma, but was Mr. Borden's second wife. They have never been on the best of terms, and in the house have merely been civil to Mr. Borden's second wife, and nothing more. The cause of this unpleasantness was over a division of some property which the girl's mother had left to Mr. Borden, who had given it to his second wife instead of the daughters. It was a house valued at perhaps $1000, and Mr. Fish said it was an absurdly small sum for them to quarrel about, as they had all the money they could spend and went to Europe whenever they wanted to go. Mr. Fish does not think that Lizzie herself did the deed, but that she and Morse concocted the scheme and hired some one else to do it. When asked what her object would have been in doing this, Mr. Fish replied: "Simply to get them out of the way. No one made any money out of it, nor could they in any way by murdering the couple." Mrs. Fish is expected home tonight. "

However, the next day Aug.10, the Globe printed this:

"HAVE NO THEORY.

Fish Family Disagree with the Grandfather.
Do Not Believe Lizzie and Morse Concocted the Deed.
.........
HARTFORD, Conn., Aug. 9 - Fred S. Fish and the grandson of Mrs. Geo. B. Fish, who is the sister of the murdered Mrs. Borden of Fall River, has just returned from the funeral of Mr. and Mrs. Borden, which he attended with his grandmother. He says that the members of the family do not agree with his grandfather, George B. Fish, that Lizzie Borden and J. V. Morse concocted the murder of Mr. and Mrs. Borden. The other members of the Fish family disagree with Geo. B. Fish but have no theory to advance."

The Boston Advertiser reported on Aug. 29, during the Preliminary hearing:

".... Among those who were present was Mrs. Fish of Hartford, Conn., a sister of the murdered woman. ..."

No wonder Lizzie was looking for sinkers! :grin:

Posted: Wed Feb 06, 2008 2:06 pm
by Tina-Kate
I think at one time we called all this "Fish Stories". :lol:

Posted: Wed Feb 06, 2008 9:45 pm
by Kat
Thanks for all that, Har!

Doug-Oh and I had discussed the story he posted and I missed this line in there:
Lizzie and Emma Borden are step-daughters of the murdered woman and never have been on good terms with her owing to troubles over the division of a small property left by the girls’ mother to Mr. Borden who gave it to the second wife instead of the girls.
Sorry Doug-Oh!

Posted: Wed Feb 06, 2008 10:04 pm
by doug65oh
Salright! :lol:

Posted: Sun Feb 10, 2008 5:57 am
by snokkums
The other problem I see with that Fish story is that why leave two living witnesses? Ok, as the hired gun, you don't kill Lizzie because she hired you, but what about Bridget? Assuming that she didn't have any knowledge of the hit, you'd have to get rid of her too, unless she was in on it too.

Posted: Mon Feb 11, 2008 3:16 pm
by doug65oh
Not really... Killer comes in, sees target and administers a little cranial therapy to the unfortunate Mr. Borden on the sitting room sofa. Bridget is where? Up third floor in her room. From the killer's POV, the job is done. The intended target has been hit. There's no one else in plain sight to worry about...

Posted: Thu Feb 14, 2008 10:32 am
by snokkums
doug65oh @ Mon Feb 11, 2008 3:16 pm wrote:Not really... Killer comes in, sees target and administers a little cranial therapy to the unfortunate Mr. Borden on the sitting room sofa. Bridget is where? Up third floor in her room. From the killer's POV, the job is done. The intended target has been hit. There's no one else in plain sight to worry about...
But, you know the problem I have with this whole scenrio is that why would Lizzie take the murder rap when there was someone else that did it.

Posted: Thu Feb 14, 2008 12:06 pm
by Tina-Kate
snokkums @ Thu Feb 14, 2008 10:32 am wrote:But, you know the problem I have with this whole scenrio is that why would Lizzie take the murder rap when there was someone else that did it.
That was the main thing I had a problem with when it came to Arnold Brown's "Billy Borden" theory. Why Lizzie would go thru the trial, etc was never adequately explained.

Why would she go thru that for anyone? There was always the chance she could have been convicted & got the death sentence.