Lizzie Borden Society Forum

I was reading thru some old post in the archives, and I got to thinking. I was reading the post titled, "Abby Borden".The writer stated "Many authers have made a big deal of her corpulence, I started wondering how in the heck she got so well nourshised eating such crap for food"(two day old mutton).

I started thinking the same way. As cheap and tight as Andrew was and eating two day old mutton, how did Abby get so healthy.

And I think that maybe, given her size, that that may have added to Andrew not thinking to highly of her. I mean, from everything that I have read, he basically married her to take care of Lizzie and Emma. So being heavy just made distasteful to her.

Well, there seemed to be plenty of starch in the house from baker's bread to cookies. She also baked pies, and probably had plenty of jellies and jams put by for daily consumption- and potatoes. She was short, apparently not too active, visiting her half-sister and going to the market mostly- both of which were near by, and as a sedentary person myself- it takes very little to put on weight after 50, and overeating is not always the way it is done. She may also have had hormonal problems.

Some of us are naturally prone to being on the heavy side.

I myself have always had to starve myself or be extremely physically active just to be average weight. Less active than I used to be, I bike everyday but that has not prevented *middle-aged spread* from happening. I've resolved myself to the fact I no longer have the energy to fight it.

It's genetic. I've heard that those of us prone this way are by natural selection *survivors*, because we easily store fat to keep us going in cases of starvation. In modern day, however...

snokkums @ Sun Apr 06, 2008 4:10 pm wrote:

I was reading thru some old post in the archives, and I got to thinking. I was reading the post titled, "Abby Borden".The writer stated "Many authers have made a big deal of her corpulence, I started wondering how in the heck she got so well nourshised eating such crap for food"(two day old mutton).

I started thinking the same way. As cheap and tight as Andrew was and eating two day old mutton, how did Abby get so healthy.

And I think that maybe, given her size, that that may have added to Andrew not thinking to highly of her. I mean, from everything that I have read, he basically married her to take care of Lizzie and Emma. So being heavy just made distasteful to her.

Abby was actually quite attractive when she and Andrew married...with a nice figure. I would assume she, like many other women of the time, ate foods that these days we would consider unhealthy. Plus, she was in her 60's and had gained weight after menopause.

I think people get a distorted view of Abby's real size. She was overweight, yes....but she was not enormous.

Where is there evidence that Andrew did not think highly of her? Nothing I have read has given me that impression at all. Marrying again may have had the added bonus of providing the girls with a mother, but I have never seen any evidence whatsoever that that was his sole intent.

Was it Victoria Lincoln who called Abbie an invalid? It would seem that some people didn't regard her as healthy, though i don't believe we were able to validate the "invalid". We did question whether she was arthritic from the position of her legs in the death photos.

Snokkums, is there a source for Andrew not thinking very highly of Abby? I think Andrew had to have thought very highly of Abby, after all he purchased Abby's stepmother's half of a house and put it in Abby's name in order that Abby's half-sister would not be put out of her home. That is not something anyone would do for a person they did not think very highly of.

Where is the documentation that Andrew basically married Abby to take care of Lizzie and Emma?

Your last sentence doesn't make sense - are you saying that being heavy made Abby distasteful to Andrew? Abby may have been overweight, but that does not mean she was unattractive; in other words, being heavyset does not make a person distasteful. I know several heavyset people who have personalities that draw other people to them; they are fun loving people who would give the shirt off their backs to a person in need.

Abby was short, and short-waisted. Studying her probable wedding photo- the one in the chair with the 1860's dress on, she was not willowy then either. Short-waisted people give the impression of being even heavier around the middle (oh how I know ). She was five foot three and over 200 pounds- which is, by anybody's definition- overweight by a great deal. She may have had genetic predisposition to this, probably enjoyed starches and desserts (which takes its toll in middle age), and did not seem to be terribly athletic. Bridget did much of the heavy work around the house, markets were merely steps away, and it seems her primary socializing was on 4th Street at the Whitehead house. All of these things, plus menopause add up to a thick waist. When one is heavy, the toll on the knees and feet is enormous (more personal experience here) and one is inclined to be even more inactive.
I have always hoped Andrew had, at one time, some affection for Abby. I was not pleased to learn his displeasure at her going to Dr. Bowen that morning of August 3rd, and I doubt he was free with money for any sort of frills for his wife. Having a servant was not much of a luxury in this era, most domestics were so cheap and abundant, the average middle class household could afford some paid help in the form of handyman, cook, laundry and general work girl.

I had a good look at Abby's shoes and foot positions in the crime scene photos-and much has been made about this. The shoes appear mismatched, but it is impossible to tell if this is from camera angle, or were they cheap, mismatched house shoes. Her house dress was surely a cheap cotton calico. The body had been shifted, thus the odd position of the feet in my mind, is not conclusive of anything. The onset of rigor mortis is about 3 hours after death and reaches maximum stiffness after 12 hours. If these photos were taken about 4:30, Abby was well-advancing in rigor mortis so the leg and feet position would not look in any way supple or natural.
I don't know if Abby "settled" or "selected" Andrew. At her age, I suspect having security, home of her own, and no financial worries was a big plus. Her options were extremely limited and at age 36 without beau or fiance, Andrew may have looked pretty good. Women marry even now for less!

If the girls were ragging Abby the way Bridget told it, I wouldn't be surprised if she had both hands in the cookie jar. Maybe eating filled the void left by the love she didn't receive from her daughters.
Excuse me: stepdaughters.
One can almost hear them: "You're not my mother-- you're my stepmother!"
I don't believe Lizzie said that for the first time, the night of the day of the murders.
BTW: What was Abby's history with domestics prior to the arrival of Bridget? How many? How long were their tenures? Did any leave in distress?

DJ @ Mon Apr 07, 2008 1:23 pm wrote:If the girls were ragging Abby the way Bridget told it, I wouldn't be surprised if she had both hands in the cookie jar.

Yup. If I were a stepmother in that household, I'd be addicted to something to make it thru the day.

Both hands in the cookie jar and face down in a cream pie.

I would have been baking anything sweet as a comfort food myself if I was in her position. It sort of hit me a little strange also that Andrew was upset at Abby going to the doctor. Most people didn't go to a doctor unless they were desperate or really afraid. Even in this day I know people who are petrified to go even for an office visit. But really don't you think he whould have at least asked how she felt, or what was so wrong that she went to the doctors. It's almost as if he had no compassion, and he cared more for his bank account versus how she felt.I can't imagine living with a non caring husband and having his two kids be so rude. It must have been really tough for her. I was talking to my aunt (she's around 93 yrs old) about my grandmother. I didn't know my grandfather, so I can't say what type of person he was. She told me that it was different back then, you didn't marry for love, you married for survival. I just didn't expect that answer, and think of it whenever I read about Abby

I guess it's possible that Andrew thought Abby was overreacting over the illness...if they had been eating warmed over fish, their symptoms sound suspiciously like food poisoning. I've had it myself and I can see how, if you were leery of someone to begin with, you could easily imagine you had been poisoned.

In that era, you went to the doctor when you were sick...and a case of "summer complaint" may not have been Andrew's idea of "sick". Even now, I know people who would not fork over money for a doctor unless they were on their deathbeds...to them, preventative medicine is just a way for the doctors to get rich!

And Bowen's prescribing Castor Oil tells us nothing about what he thought because it was an emetic for poison but also just a common remedy for getting anything out of the system. The fact that he stopped by the house later may indicate he had mulled it all over and thought Abby might be worse, or maybe was being poisoned- or maybe he was just a nice guy and wanted to check on her. I wish someone had pinned Bowen down more closely as to what he thought and what Abby had been suggesting on that office call.

I think Bowen stopping over to check on Abby later, and see how Andrew was doing, was typical of a doctor, especially in that day and age. Having once been married to a doctor myself, I would be surprised if Bowen had NOT made that follow-up visit to them.

I would LOVE to know what Abby had told him, however.

Bowen pretty much says what Abby had told him, and even mentions he thought she was going to be sick in his office. The cloudy part is what she meant by poison to me- food-poisoning or something more sinister. Of course, if Bowen were protecting Lizzie, he may not have told ALL Abby said or suspected. She may have said to him- "For all I know that girl of Andrew's has dusted my toast with arsenic!- she's mean enough to do it!"- I bet Dr. Bowen, like most doctors, got an earful daily from patients.

Simple, Snoks. Taking in more calories than Abby was burning off. I haven't seen a full length photo of Abby in the nude but she was probably an Endomorph, which would be broad with a lot of body fat. Endomorphic people have a hard time loosing weight and keeping the fat off.

-1bigsteve (o:

Alice at the trial, talking about Lizzie's Wednesday night visit to her house and what Lizzie told her:
Page 379 / i401

Q. What had she said just before the burning of the house?
A. I think that was the beginning of her telling me about her fears of somebody breaking in, before she told me about the breaking into the barn, I think.

Q. Is there anything else that occurs to you in the conversation?
A. I don't think of anything.

Q. Anything about doing anything to any member of the household; not herself, but anyone else; anything to her father. She was afraid that someone would do something.
A. Oh, she said, "I am afraid somebody will do something; I don't know but what somebody will do something." I think that was the beginning.

Q. Please state that.
A. "I think sometimes---I am afraid sometimes that somebody will do something to him; he is so discourteous to people." And then she said, "Dr. Bowen came over. Mrs. Borden went over, and father didn't like it because she was going; and she told him where she was going, and he says, 'Well, my money shan't pay for it.' She went over to Dr. Bowen's, and Dr. Bowen told her---she told him she was afraid they were poisoned ---and Dr. Bowen laughed, and said, No, there wasn't any poison. And she came back, and Dr. Bowen came over." And she said, "I am so ashamed, the way father treated Dr. Bowen. I was so mortified." And she said after he had gone Mrs. Borden said she thought it was too bad for him to treat Dr. Bowen so, and he said he didn't want him coming over there that way.

~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~
And from The Knowlton Papers, Alice's letter, #HK212, partial:

" She [Lizzie] told me of Mrs. Borden going over to see Dr. Bowen.

Mrs. Borden said she was afraid they had been poisoned. Mrs. Borden met Mr. Borden in the entry on her way out, and told him where she was going. Lizzie said "her father did not like it and said my money shant pay for it." But she went over.

I asked her what Dr. Bowen said she replied, he laughed when Mrs.Borden told what she feared, and said it was not poison.

Mrs. Borden had told the doctor about Mr. Borden's being sick and he went over to see him. Lizzie said "the way father used Dr. Bowen - why I was so mortified. I don't know what the doctor will think I am sure."

After he had gone Mrs. Borden scolded. She said I am ashamed for you to use Dr. Bowen so. Mr. Borden said "well I don't want him coming over here Dr. Handy style." Mrs. B. said he didn't come over here Dr. Handy style. I told him you were sick and he came over to see you and I think it is a shame you can't treat him decent. He is all the neighbors we have got and I think it is too bad."

Mr. Moody -
The foregoing is a substantially correct narative as I
remember it of the conversation which you wish me to give you.
Miss Russell
June 2, '93

(Note: "Medley matter" handwritten in lead on reverse side of letter.)

__________

Then there is how Dr. Bowen describes that exchange, and note he says he did not see Abbie when he went over, because he had already seen her. He went to see Andrew. Also note Bowen did not see Lizzie. He thought she went upstairs when he came. So what Lizzie told Alice happened possibly outside of her knowledge or at least her presence.

Inquest
Dr. Bowen
116/23
Q. Do you recollect what it was you prescribed for her [Abbie]?
A. I told her to take some castor oil, and take it in a little port wine to take the taste off, and probably that would be all she would want. I think immediately after breakfast, I thought they were neighbors, I would just go over. Before that, she [Abbie] said Lizzie came down, she heard them vomiting, I think she was in the next room, and she was up too, and she commenced to vomit at that time, about twelve. I thought if they did not call me I would go over and make a friendly call. I went over after breakfast. I think Bridget let me in, I am very sure it was the front door. I says “Mr. Borden, what is the matter?” He looked at me and wanted to know if anybody had sent for me. I told him no, Mrs. Borden was over, I thought I would just come over and see. He seemed well enough then. He said he felt a little heavy, and did not feel just right, but said he did not think he needed any medicine. I did not urge him at all, of course, and I went home. I did not think much about it. I saw Mr. Borden out two or three hours afterwards. When I went in, I saw Lizzie run up stairs. Mrs. Borden I did not see, because I had seen her before.

Prelim
Dr. Bowen
Page 408

Q. You went over to the house after breakfast?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. You were not called?
A. I went of my own accord.
Q. From the symptoms she had described, you felt somewhat alarmed?
A. Yes Sir, so many of them; not because they sent for me.
Q. When you got there, who did you see?
A. I think that Bridget Sullivan let me in at the front door; I am not certain, I think so. I am very sure that Miss Sullivan let me in.
Q. Who did you see?
A. I saw Mr. Borden.
Q. You talked with him?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. How did he appear to be?
A. He was lying down then. As I went in, of course he sat up on the sofa.
Q. Did you see Lizzie then?
A. I did not. I saw someone going up stairs, I do not know whether it was Bridget or Lizzie or Mrs. Borden, I did not see the face, I saw the form.
Q. Did you see Lizzie at all that day?
A. I think not.
_____

When I Word Search the trial testimony of Dr. Bowen, there is no word "poison," no word "vomit," and only 1 "sick."

We are relying on Lizzie telling Alice something Lizzie possibly was trying to overhear, about Dr. Bowen's visit. Then Alice tells us.
The patients are dead, and Dr. Bowen seemed a bit unconcerned about the Wednesday visit to him by Abbie and his own to Andrew after breakfast Wednesday.

At the Inquest, Knowlton asks this of Emma:

Q. Were you away a good deal of the time, or mostly at home?
A. Mostly at home.
Q. Who kept the house, your step mother, that is, who had charge of the management?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. She filled the place of housekeeper?
A. Yes.

That is page 108(15). That question sets the tone, and the legend, that Abbie was only good for a housekeeper. It's an unfortunate phasing.
If it had been asked later in time, it might be considered that Knowlton had some insider knowledge by then, but this was the week after the murders....

I found an interesting newspaper account of Dr. Bowen and the whole poison thing, from The Lizzie Borden Sourcebook, pg. 26, from The Fall River Herald:

THE POISON THEORY

Facts may develop that will show the importance of the poison episode, but as yet the facts are meager. It appears that Lizzie Borden was ill with the rest of the family, and Dr. Bowen was called to attend them. Lizzie had told a friend the day before the murder that she was afraid somebody had tampered with the milk which had been left at the house. She seemed very much disturbed about it and remarked: "I am afraid that father has an enemy." Little was thought of the matter then, but in the light of subsequent developments this may prove to be important.

Relative to the poisoning Dr. Bowen said: "On Wednesday morning last, about 9 o'clock, Mrs. Borden came across the shed, and, entering our house, commenced conversation with my wife. She said: "I am afraid my husband and I were poisoned last night. We ate supper as usual, and had nothing out of the ordinary on the table. About 9 o'clock we were both taken sick with terrrible fits of vomiting and pains in the stomach. We finally got easier and so did not send for the doctor in the night. I thought, however, I would come over and see him this morning.' Therewith she came into my presence, and I asked her in a general way her symptoms. I could not gather from her statements any particular opinion as to the cause of the illness, but at this time in the year such troubles are not infrequent, a condition due to many causes.

"A little later in the forenoon I went over to see Mr. Borden. I found him reclining on the sofa in the sitting-room. I asked him how he was, and if he thought anything had poisoned him. He laughed and said he guessed there was not very much the matter with him. We sat talking some little time and then I went out. That was the last time I talked with him.

"That is the whole basis for the talk of poison," continued Dr. Bowen, "and, personally, I do not take any stock in the theory. That is, I see nothing, thus far, sufficiently strong to indicate it. It is a very serious matter to make reflections and insinuations against a woman of unstained character as some of the pappers are doing in their reports of this case, as they relate to Lizzie Borden," continued the doctor. I have known her for many years, and have seen her several times since the tragedy. I believe her absolutely innocent of even a guilty knowledge of the crime. I will not say there may not have been occasional family differences between Mr. Borden and the girls. That is a matter I was in a position to know little about, but so far as I ever observed the inter-family relations were cordial.

Thanks Susan for the transcription! I bet Harry can figure out the date of your item- he has studied the Sourcebook's peculiarities.

You're welcome, Kat. From what Dr. Bowen says in the article, it sounds like it is the week after the murders, but, which day? I would take it as being some day after Wednesday. Harry, any guesses?

And, I was going to mention, as you usually do, Kat, that news articles should usually be taken with a large grain of salt. But, this particular one seems to have a simple ring of truth to it. The only thing that was said that was different really was that Abby came into Dr. Bowen's house and spoke with his wife first before consulting with him; I thought it was a neat little addition.

My records show it to be dated August 6th, Saturday.

Thanks, Harry. Wow, so it was that same week as the murders. I thought it sounded like it was the following week close to Wednesday necessitating the "last Wednesday".

Does anyone know for sure if Knowlton ever knew Lizzie before August 4th, 1892? There was a report that he used to dandle her on his knee when she was little. And it's possible they were related by marriage, through the Almy connection. Anyone know?