Lizzie Borden Society Forum

Posted: **Fri Jul 04, 2008 5:01 pm**

:

I was surfing the net and came across The Top Ten Most Evil Women List. It was interesting, but I was surprinsed that Lizzie didn't get on it. I mean, she was accused and went on trial for murdering her parents with an axe. Even if she was acquitted, it still is kind of gruesome thing. I think we should come up with our own list, and Lizzie should have a place.

Posted: **Sat Jul 05, 2008 8:11 pm**

snokkums @ Fri Jul 04, 2008 5:01 pm wrote::

I was surfing the net and came across The Top Ten Most Evil Women List. It was interesting, but I was surprinsed that Lizzie didn't get on it. I mean, she was accused and went on trial for murdering her parents with an axe. Even if she was acquitted, it still is kind of gruesome thing. I think we should come up with our own list, and Lizzie should have a place.

(Denise) I feel very strongly that Lizzie should NOT be on such a list. She was included in the anthology "100 Human Monsters" and in my opinion should not have been. The simple fact is that there are valid reasons for doubting her guilt and therefore her "evilness"

Posted: **Sat Jul 05, 2008 11:38 pm**

Posted: **Sun Jul 06, 2008 8:23 am**

mbhenty @ Sat Jul 05, 2008 11:38 pm wrote:

Yes, true, ture..........., but then again, such a labels can be subjective.

Though she may not be classified on the same list as say, AILEEN WUORNOS, circumstantial evidence colors her as probably guilty of knowing or even ordering the murders.>>

(Denise) Aileen Wuornos indisputably killed seven strangers. There may be some doubt as to whether or not all seven killings were in fact murders even though she eventually retracted her self-defense claim. I actually believe it is at least possible that the first killing, that of Richard Mallory, was in fact self-defense. I don't think there's much chance that the other six were self-defense. They were deliberate, pre-meditated murders. Wuornos seems worse to me than Lizzie, even if Lizzie was guilty, because the awful Aileen Wuornos murdered more people.

<<If that is true then we can place her on the same list as CHARLES MANSON. >>

(Denise) I wrote an essay entitled "The Manson Myth" that might be of interest to you. In that essay I attempt to debunk the legend of Manson as a charismatic mastermind.

<<And, if we do, and old Charley is number 2 on that list---then Lizzie would be number one. Charles Manson never killed anyone. A true "MONSTER" is the one who wields the axe or twists the knife.>>

(Denise) I disagree. Someone who hires a murderer may be just as much of a monster as the person who does the first-hand killing.

<<Though we may add that there is no proof that Lizzie had anything to do with the Borden murders, we must also remind everyone that old Charley is just a whacko and probably doesn't have the resolve to stomach the results from the orders he gave.>>

(Denise) Please visit http://www.crimemagazine.com and read "The Manson Myth!"

<<If it is in fact true that Lizzie "did" order the murder of her father and step mother, and please know that there is no proof, then this would make her more of a monster than MANSON.

Posted: **Mon Jul 07, 2008 1:09 pm**

Posted: **Mon Jul 07, 2008 9:49 pm**

Partial quote by snokkums @ Fri Jul 04, 2008 3:01 pm wrote::

I was surfing the net and came across The Top Ten Most Evil Women List. It was interesting, but I was surprinsed that Lizzie didn't get on it. I mean, she was accused and went on trial for murdering her parents with an axe. Even if she was acquitted, it still is kind of gruesome thing. ...

I went surfing to see if I could find The Top Ten Most Evil Women List, that you may have been looking at. I found the following web site, which I hope is the same one you are referring to. If it is, there is a note at the bottom of the list which states:

Note: In order to clear one point up, Lizzie Borden is not on this list because she was found innocent of the murder of her parents.

Here is the link to web site: http://listverse.com/crime/top-10-most-evil-women.

Is this the web page you are referring to, Robin?

I agree, with Denise in that Lizzie should not be placed on this particular list. It's true that Lizzie was accused and went to trial for the murder of Abby and Andrew, but there is no proof beyond a reasonable doubt that Lizzie actually killed them. Just because the majority of people who research and study this case feel that she has to be the killer, does not make it so.

Partial quote by snokkums @ Fri Jul 04, 2008 3:01 pm wrote:... I think we should come up with our own list, and Lizzie should have a place.

What kind of a list do you have in mind?

Posted: **Mon Jul 07, 2008 10:50 pm**

Even if you believe Lizzie to have been guilty (as I do), I don't think she comes even close to being one of the top ten most evil women ever, heinous as her crime was. It was too limited.

To be among the top ten, she would have had to have been a serial killer or mass murderer. A far "better" candidate, for example, is Countess Elizabeth Bathory, allegedly responsible for the murders of hundreds of young women. Isabella of Spain, who authorized many of the horrors of the Spanish Inquisition, would be another. (I know she sincerely believed that she was justified. So did Hitler (and, I think, so did Lizzie).)

Posted: **Mon Jul 07, 2008 10:55 pm**

Unless someone is proven guilty in a court of law, or they have admitted to having committed some monstrous acts, like Bin Laden has, I don't think anyone should be labeled as a "monster." Too many innocent people have gone to their graves branded as evil. Once they are dead it's too late to apologize. I like to reserve judgment until I see the proof. Not public opinion, but concrete proof.

There is one acception, my third grade teacher! But that is a whole other story.

-1bigsteve (o:

Posted: **Mon Jul 07, 2008 10:57 pm**

Denise, it was kind of difficult to follow your thoughts and the point(s) you were attempting to make, because you placed your post inside of Michael's post, and therefore, I can't quote you. However, I read the essay you wrote on Manson. Although your essay is very well written, I can not say I agree with you. IMO, Charlie Manson had complete control over all of the members in the 'family'. Let me give you an example of what I'm talking about...

In the A&E Biography, part 5, YouTube video on Charles Manson, Leslie Van Houton and Patricia Krenwinkel make it quite clear that Charlie was the mastermind behind the Tate-Labianca murders. These two women have absolutely no reason in the world, to lie about what Charlie was or was not. Both Patricia and Leslie take responsibility for their actions, so it is not as if they are blaming everything on Charlie. This video is well worth the time it takes to watch all the way though. However, if you start around the 2 minute, 33 second mark, where Leslie Van Houton states, "You know, it didn't happen over night. He spent a lot of time taking, middle-class, girls, and remolding them."

Then Charley states, "I never broke nobodies will. I never told anybody to do anything, other than what they wanted to do."

To which Patricia Krenwinkel responds, "Oh, Charley's just, absolutely lying. There wasn't one thing done, that was even allowed to be done, without his expressed permission."

Then Charley states, "Wait a minute, I said, you do what's best for you, you do what you feel is right. You do what you think is right. Now, whatever you think is right, is got to be right. All I doing is, I'm walking with you, I'm walking with you, I'm walking in line with you, and I'm holding the line with you. What you do is up to you. It's got nothing to do with me."

To which, Leslie Van Houton responds, "You know, I, I take offense, to the fact, that 25 years later, Manson doesn't, own up to his share in this. I take offense to that. I take, ahm, responsible for, my part, and part of my responsibility was, helping create, him."

At this point, Patricia Krenwinkel states, "Every once in awhile I get letters, from children, and dah, they seem to think that what we did, is alright. There is nothing, nothing that we did, that, is alright. Nothing."

Source: http://youtube.com/watch?v=YQSwYC1_CG0&feature=related

I hope, I quoted Manson correctly; he talks so fast and repeats what he says so much that it was, a bit, difficult to type exactly what he said. I also hope I correctly quoted Patricia and Leslie. Note: I put the point I am attempting to make in a bold font. Charlie had complete control over these people, and when you add in the drugs they were using, and the brainwashing by Manson, then he had the control he needed in order to manipulate these people into doing his dirty work.

Posted: **Mon Jul 07, 2008 11:02 pm**

Partial quote by mbhenty @ Mon Jul 07, 2008 11:09 am wrote: ... I expect it comes down to who or what you choose to believe. ...

I agree, Michael.

Posted: **Mon Jul 07, 2008 11:08 pm**

Partial quote by 1bigsteve @ Mon Jul 07, 2008 8:55 pm wrote:... Too many innocent people have gone to their graves branded as evil. Once they are dead it's too late to apologize. I like to reserve judgment until I see the proof. Not public opinion, but concrete proof. ...

Leo Frank is a very good example of an innocent man being hung, due to public opinion.

Posted: **Mon Jul 07, 2008 11:19 pm**

1bigsteve @ Mon Jul 07, 2008 10:55 pm wrote:Unless someone is proven guilty in a court of law, or they have admitted to having committed some monstrous acts, like Bin Laden has, I don't think anyone should be labeled as a "monster." Too many innocent people have gone to their graves branded as evil. -1bigsteve (o:

Just because someone is "proven" guilty in a court of law doesn't automatically make them guilty any more than an acquittal is automatic proof of innocence. (Now who could I be thinking of.) And people have been known to confess falsely to crimes they didn't commit (from being coerced or from actually having delusions of having committed them.

While we're at it, how many guilty people have gone to their deaths "branded" as sweethearts?

It goes without saying that when I call someone a monster, I mean "if guilty." And as Faye Dunaway said of Joan Crawford, "She wasn't just a monster. Nobody's just a monster."

Posted: **Mon Jul 07, 2008 11:19 pm**

Duplicate. Please delete.

Posted: **Wed Jul 09, 2008 8:46 am**

Leo Frank is a very good example of an innocent man being hung, due to public opinion.

I've got an article on Leo Frank up at http://www.crimemagazine.com/05/leofrank,0314-5.htm.

Posted: **Wed Jul 09, 2008 11:24 am**

Denise, your URL will not work because there is a period at the end of it. It will work fine when you remove that.

Posted: **Wed Jul 09, 2008 5:25 pm**

Enjoyed your article on Manson, Denise!

Posted: **Thu Jul 10, 2008 10:46 am**

Harry @ Wed Jul 09, 2008 11:24 am wrote:Denise, your URL will not work because there is a period at the end of it. It will work fine when you remove that.

(Denise) Thank you for pointing that out, Harry. Here is the working URL
http://crimemagazine.com/05/leofrank,0314-5.htm

Posted: **Thu Jul 10, 2008 10:47 am**

Cheryl @ Wed Jul 09, 2008 5:25 pm wrote:Enjoyed your article on Manson, Denise!

(Denise) Thank you, Cheryl.

Posted: **Sat Jul 12, 2008 4:18 pm**

Denise, I read your essay on Leo Frank, which I truly enjoyed. There were a few of things that I didn't know, such as Mary being recently laid off at the factory, there were two notes left beside Mary's body, and Conley's sweet little mess left at the bottom of the elevator shaft.

I'd be interested in hearing your opinions on the books you mentioned in your essay; I am particularly curious about your opinion on Steve Oney's book. What book(s) would you recommend of the ones you mentioned?

Posted: **Sat Jul 12, 2008 7:09 pm**

Denise, just finished reading your Frank case article.

I enjoyed it very much and it held my interest throughout. Thanks!

Posted: **Tue Jul 15, 2008 1:49 am**

If you look in the comments for that list, or look at the female serial killer list at http://www.crimezzz.net/serialkiller_in ... female.php you can see a number of other fine candidates -- women who definitely killed a good many more people that Lizzie did (assuming Lizzie is guilty).

Several mothers murdered their children (Waneta Hoyt, Marybeth Tinning) -- as many as nine or ten of them -- and some nurses killed multiple patients (Genene Jones, Mary Ann Cotton, Beverley Allitt, the appalling Jane Toppan). Then there are the noblewomen who delighted in slaying their subjects or poisoning for fun and profit (Elizabeth Bathory, Darya Saltykova, the Marquise de Brinvilliers), and the femmes fatale who killed their lovers/partners for jealousy or insurance (Vera Renczi, Nannie Doss, Blanche Taylor Moore).

Killing two old people with a hatchet is not meritorious conduct, no matter what kind of character Andrew had. But plenty of women have done much, much worse things.

Posted: **Tue Jul 15, 2008 9:17 am**

Wordweaver @ Tue Jul 15, 2008 12:49 am wrote: Killing two old people with a hatchet is not meritorious conduct, no matter what kind of character Andrew had. But plenty of women have done much, much worse things.

This is why it puzzles me how many people cannot accept Lizzie may well have done it.

Posted: **Tue Jul 22, 2008 6:12 am**

twinsrwe @ Sat Jul 12, 2008 4:18 pm wrote:Denise, I read your essay on Leo Frank, which I truly enjoyed. There were a few of things that I didn't know, such as Mary being recently laid off at the factory, there were two notes left beside Mary's body, and Conley's sweet little mess left at the bottom of the elevator shaft.

I'd be interested in hearing your opinions on the books you mentioned in your essay; I am particularly curious about your opinion on Steve Oney's book. What book(s) would you recommend of the ones you mentioned?

(Denise) Steve Oney's "And the Dead Shall Rise" is extremely good but it is also extremely long. Some people might not be able to get through it so one of the other shorter books might be better for those who don't do well with thick volumes. However, Oney's is certainly very thorough and probably the best from that perspective.

Posted: **Tue Jul 22, 2008 10:32 pm**

Thanks you so much for responding to my post, Denise. I appreciate your opinion on Steve Oney's book. I have always been interested in the Leo Frank Case and had a feeling that Steve Oney's book was probably the best book on the subject. Now that I know it is, thanks to you, I intend to buy it - I don't mind it being extremely long, I'm more interested in accuracy.

Posted: **Wed Jul 23, 2008 2:39 pm**

I'll have to look for that book on Leo Frank. I've always been interested in that case as well. My ex-husband grew up in Milledgeville, and it was common knowledge there that Jim Conley, not Leo Frank, murdered Mary Phagan. That case was one huge miscarriage of justice.

Posted: **Wed Jul 23, 2008 3:10 pm**

Here Sally, you may be interested in the following links...

Review of And the Dead Shall Rise: The Murder of Mary Phagan and the Lynching of Leo Frank, by author Steve Oney
http://www.terroristnextdoor.com/index2 ... df=1&id=33

Here is a link to Steve Oney's book. (Hardcover)
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/ ... memagazine

Here is a link to Steve Oney's book. ((Paperback)
http://www.amazon.com/Dead-Shall-Rise-M ... y_b_text_b

Posted: **Wed Jul 23, 2008 7:30 pm**

Thank you so much. I definitely have to get that one...

Posted: **Wed Jul 23, 2008 9:44 pm**

Thanks also for the links. While living in Georgia, we went to the Marietta cemetery where she's buried.

Lizzie Borden Society Forum

The Top Ten Most Evil Women List

The Top Ten Most Evil Women List

Re: The Top Ten Most Evil Women List