Lizzie Borden Society Forum

The new Lizzie Mini on youTube was delayed due to the phenomenal performance of The Dark Knight at the box office. We decided to release it during the late summer season to ensure maximum sales. Don't forget to purchase the combo at the concession stand and donate to the Will Rogers Foundation.

Seriously, I was just lazy and finally go around to it.

Garden Bay Films Present Lizzie Borden Mini #4: The Bridget Run Timing Test, filmed in May of 2008 at 92 Second Street.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jNMei_j7q_w

Kudos to all involved, these Minis are true collaborations. Sometimes I feel like I'm just the guy who points the camera and hits the on button, all the rest is done by a wonderful community of informed and talented people. There is also new music by Justin Durban. And of course the generosity of the Bed and Breakfast to allow me to film on their property.

Enjoy.

Enjoyed the video - Lizzie's comments were probably true to character. Six minutes is quite awhile to clean up. And I'm still wondering, as I've posted somewhere here before, if Bridget were somehow involved, if she didn't have some chance of disposing of a small bit of evidence during the trip to Alice Russell's home.

Guys, due to some minor errors that crept into the film, I've taken it down temporarily and will be reposting it tomorrow evening with some corrections.

The film is back up on YouTube!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jNMei_j7q_w

It's new and improved.

Great experiment, Richard and Shelley, what a neat idea! It really helps to have an idea of timing with the principal players in the tragedy. Thanks for sharing it with us. One thing I was wondering about was whether or not it was taken into account that Bridget went to the wrong house first looking for Alice Russell and had to ask a couple of people to find the correct address? Or was it just a rough idea of how long it would have taken Bridget to get to Dr. Bowen's and Alice's and back?

Nice film. Kudos and thanks to all who participated, especially to Jo Anne for her trip down to Alice Russells. The time was longer than I suspected and as Shelley said it may have been even longer. Very interesting.

Lizzie would not have had the total time to be by herself as Mrs. Churchill came over before Bridget returned the second time.

BTW, this film is more accurate than the Legend movie on this incident. When you watch the Legend movie, note which way Bridget goes when she leaves the house on her trip to Alice's. She goes left instead of right. Details, details, details...

If you listen to "Bridget" you will hear her say, at the end of the driveway- "I don't know just where Miss Russell lives". Quite true, she did go to the wrong house initially, and had to come out on the street to inquire about the correct house. That is not shown in the video. Also, the street configuration was not exactly as it is now. It is possible that Bridget might have been away as much as even 3 minutes more with all of these considerations.

Yes, Mrs. Churchill did come over, after a short time interval from her initial conversation through the window to Lizzie at the screen door - while Bridget was running to Alice's - but did not come into the house until after she had crossed the street, walked over to the livery stable, inquired of a man at the livery, spoke to Tommy Bowles, and presumably relayed some more information to Cunningham before she recrossed the street and entered the kitchen. We plan to time this out as well. We can't know exactly how many minutes Addie Churchill had been inside the kitchen with Lizzie when Bridget came back, nor how fast Alice got ready and galloped up the hill to the house after. We can only give a good estimation. Any way you cut it, Lizzie had quite a good "alone time" increment in which a number of things might have been done, with a sink just behind her back and quick access to the cellar. The time estimate of Bridget's Run time was at the shortest end of the possibilities. My gut feeling is that it was probably longer than 6 minutes 15 seconds.

I'm sorry, Shelley, somehow I didn't catch that the first time I viewed the video. Sure enough, Bridget (JoAnne) says she doesn't know where she is going. I should have known with you at the helm of the production that you would think of everything. I thought it was an important point, but, it probably only added about a minute to Bridget's total time gone. It is interesting that Bridget doesn't mention it in the preliminary and waits until the trial to divulge that info.

Yes, I agree, that it might have taken Bridget longer. Theres any number of things that could have slowed her down some, such as pedestrians on the sidewalk at the time of day, etc. I love experiments such as this, I try them myself whenever possible. In the future will there possibly be an Uncle John's trip to and from the Emery's or Andrew's trip to and from downtown?

Oh yes- Uncle John's trip results are very soon to be released! There's always something new to try. I am really hoping for the real-time recreation of 8:30-12:00 of August 4th to be realized in April of 2009.

Very cool, Richard, and good job *Bridget*/JoAnne!!
Thanks Shelley!

I was thinking today that Bridget came into the house after going over to Dr. Bowen's. She needed her shawl to go further afield to get Alice.
At first, Bridget says to Lizzie that she knows where Alice lives, but then she has to get directions while out.

Trial
Bridget
244-5
Q. Did you say anything to her at that time or she to you?
A. I went around to go right in the sitting-room and she says, "Oh, Maggie, don't go in. I have got to have a doctor quick. Go over. I have got to have the doctor." So I went over to Dr. Bowen's right away, and when I came back I says, "Miss Lizzie, where was you?" I says, "Didn't I leave the screen door hooked?" She says, "I was out in the back yard and heard a groan, and came in and the screen door was wide open."

Q. Did you have anything more said between you at that time?
A. No, sir, not at that time. She wanted to know if I knew where Miss Russell lived, and I says, "Yes." She says, "Go and get her. I can't be alone in the house." So I stepped inside the entry and got a hat and shawl that was hanging inside the entry and went down to Miss Russell.

Q. Had there any outcry or alarm been given at that time to the neighbors?
A. No, sir.

I think the timing was probably a pretty fair representation of how long it took- and it may have taken longer by a couple of minutes.
Personally I don't think Lizzie would call for help until she was ready, unless she forgot something and took care of that when Bridget went to get Alice. I wonder if we can estimate how long really Lizzie was alone?

That's a great effort to get this stuff down!

Awesome video! 6-1/2 minutes? Now I can't wait to see Uncle John's trek....

I agree that Lizzie would not have called for Bridget to come down until it was "safe"- that is, if you believe Lizzie to be guilty or until she had helped her accomplice to get well clear of the house. Today we have a couple of aprons on the hooks in that back hall, -the place where the shawl and hat were were kept was but 2 steps from the screen door. Funny how protocol was in 1892- you could go next door or across the street without shawl or hat, but never much further without the trappings of polite society! Just the other day I was sitting on the front step of #92 watching the pedestrian traffic- three young girls went by in not much more than their "birthday suit". I know those old Victorians would have keeled over to see something like that parade past #92!

But yes, I personally think the period of time Bridget was in and out and gone in total would be in the 7-12 minute range, taking every single thing that we know into account and adding a minute for good measure. So our bare bones timing of 6 minutes, 15 seconds is a good average for a minimum span. The time Lizzie was actually alone before Mrs. Churchill came back from across the street and into the kitchen I would "guesstimate" to have been 4-5 minutes, which may not seem like a lot, but when you just sit and watch a clock for 5 minutes- you realize just what a lot of time it is.

Kat and I were discussing Lizzie sending Bridget away. It has been always troublesome (if you think Lizzie the murderess) why she would call up to Bridget so quickly after the attack on her father.

One of the things I thought of was that Lizzie in doing something would have had to make noise sufficient enough for Bridget to be able to hear from her attic room, and that she could only do this something with Bridget away from the house.

Exactly what she would have to do that would make a suspicious noise that Bridget could hear I have no idea but something possibly in getting rid of evidence.

Any thoughts on this?

Hmm- you mean the attempt to get Bridget out to the Sargent's sale? Well that has really bothered me lately because I posted all the sale adds here on the forum recently and that sale was for FRIDAY, and the paper did not come until 3 p.m. early edition and 5 p.m.late addition. So either Lizzie was desperate to get Bridget out and thought of the sale as the ultimate lure, or she was honestly mistaken in thinking the sale was Thursday- after all there were so many summer sales going on in all the stores that week.

As you know, it is very difficult to hear anything on the first floor if you are up in the attic level on the third floor. You REALLY have to yell loudly from the back hall steps to be heard up there. As you might have guessed,, I have asked people to lay on the sitting room sofa and groan while I was lying on Bridget's bed and I heard NOTHING. Even with the kitchen door wide open.

Because I believe Lizzie to be guilty of both murders, I think Lizzie simply wanted Bridget to leave the house so as to have a free hand at managing the homicide without worrying about Bridget compromising her freedomof movement to execute the killing and clean up . I also believe Mrs. Borden was probably killed very soon after Bridget exited the house about 9:15-20 to wash the windows, and Mr. Borden was probably slain as soon as Lizzie was certain Bridget had gone to the third floor. How I wish we knew if Lizzie was aware John was returning for lunch. I tend to believe she did not know as John never answers definitively at the door when he leaves for the Emerys and Bridget does not indicate she knew he was coming back.

If Bridget went upstairs around 10:50-10:55 and plopped down on her bed, and say the murder was done around 11, it takes just under 10 seconds to bash someone in the head with a hatchet 10-11 times. Bridget hears the clock in the town hall strike 11, and was just drifting off she says , when Lizzie called up. I would make that somewhere around 11:05. In that 5-10 minutes or so before Lizzie calls up, I believe her hands were washed, hair was smoothed and composure regained. The weapon was wiped and concealed. Lizzie would have known that Bridget would have been out of the house a few minutes on her trip to get Bowen for any last minute "tidying up"- she never lets Bridget near the sittingroom. Lizzie also may have known that Bowen was quite likely out on calls at that hour. Getting the police is never mentioned. Why did Bridget not go for someone at the Churchill house if Lizzie did not want to be left alone- why Alice Russell's place? Because it was far away! Not to mention that elaborate tale full of doom and poison Lizzie had told Alice the night before.
As far as Lizzie not having any blood on her person, I think she had covered herself for the second killing. When Adelaide Churchill says Lizzie was "immaculate, as if she just washed her hands" I think that is quite literally the truth. Nobody up in a hayloft for 15-20 minutes in the dust, pulling over boards and boxes and eating juicy pears is going to look so pristine. Of course, this is my humble opinion on it, based on a decade of knowledge of the accoustics in that house.

Thanks for the reply, Shelley.

What I meant was that after killing Andrew she had something to do that would make some sort of noise to complete her "tidying up". She would be unable to finish with Bridget in the house as Bridget would hear her.

I also wonder if she knew Dr. Bowen wasn't at home.

And I never understood what Alice was doing off work on a Thursday morning. She worked at Wilbur's in the Academy building at the time. A Thursday would seem to be an odd day to have off.

Exactly. I think that conversation with Alice on Wednesday night was intentional and sending Bridget for Alice was designed to send her on a goose chase, as Bridget says:

"Q. How far away is that?

A. I do not know, it is a good ways away. I could not tell you exactly how long it is."

Notice Lizzie never bothers to TELL Bridget just where Alice lives exactly? If it had been me I sure would have said "It's the brown house with the green shutters" or something like that!

I would imagine Alice went home for lunch as it is not far away from her day job and lunch was most likely at noon, and I would bet the hacienda Lizzie KNEW that fact. Poor old Alice was a working gal and did not have the luxuries of laying around the house or "visiting" like the Borden girls. Lizzie may WELL have been thunderstruck when Alice proved to be at home after all and followed on over to Second Street fairly soon. She may have thought Bridget would knock and bang at Alice's door, Alice was at work, and Bridget may have had to ask a neighbor where to find her, then have to race off to Wilbur's- eating up more precious minutes. I think the only thing Lizzie did not count on was nosey Mrs. Churchill. But she got her away fast with that "I've got to have a doctor"- and Addie did not get in the door.

However, Alice had to change her dress before she went to #92. That would mean she wasn't dressed in her street clothes.

It may be as simple as she had Thursday's off. It's just seems an odd day of the week to be off.

Or maybe it means she wanted to go in a "smarter" dress. People were so particular in those days. I recall my granny had her cotton "house dresses" and apron which she never would wear out of the house or yard, and then she would change into "out in town" or "going out" dress, even if she was running late. And she had to put on her "hose", powder her nose, put on her in town shoes, etc. There was such a pride in appearance- almost a duty! Do we know what sort of business Wilbur's was? Maybe Alice did not want to go in her work attire, especially if the doctor were coming over, officials, police- who knew what was going to happen and who would be at #92. Or- maybe it WAS Alice's day off- another fact Lizzie probably knew Wednesday night.

I don't think Lizzie told Bridget where Alice lived because Bridget answered "Yes" to the question if she knew where, by Lizzie, posted earlier, above.

This is Bridget at the trial, pages 244-5:
She wanted to know if I knew where Miss Russell lived, and I says, "Yes." She says, "Go and get her. I can't be alone in the house." (etc.)

My impression has been that Bridget thought she knew but once she got over there she realized she didn't, so she asked.

Mrs. Churchill was not in the house as much as Alice had been, as a calling visitor, so she would be a better person to have over who might not spot something awry. Alice, having been there many times, would be the one who might notice big things out of place- so to speak, being more familiar with the interior. I think it's less suspicious that Lizzie wanted Alice.

Also, Alice only thought the Bordens were more ill than previously- not murdered. Therefore her dressing up more nicely for the visit over, she couldn't be expecting police and such. I can't figure out why Alice was at home either- maybe she had 1/2 day off on Thursday? But she also seems to have taken off Friday and Saturday too. Maybe she worked for a relative who was flexible?

I have often pictured Alice sewing in the window and answering the door as soon as Bridget came because she said she was situated where she could see.

Oh, I just noticed how Alice says "my work:"

Inquest
Alice
147
Q. What was the first that you saw or observed, or heard, of this tragedy?
A. I think It was about quarter past eleven when I saw Bridget coming up the steps, and my work is so I can see any one coming up the steps, where I was at work. I knew there was trouble because Lizzie told me Mr. and Mrs. Borden were sick the night before, very sick, so the first impression I got was that somebody was sick there.
Q. She told you Tuesday night they were sick?
A. Yes Sir. I stepped to the door, and I says “what is it Bridget, are they worse”, or Maggie. She says, “yes, I dont know but what Mr. Borden is dead.” I dont know whether she said “come over”. I dont remember what she said. I said “I will come right over as soon as I change my dress; which I did.
Q. She did not tell you how he had been killed, or anything of that sort?
A. She did not, no.
Q. She said what?
A. She says “he is worse, I dont know but what Mr. Borden is dead.”
Q. You did not take much time to change your dress?
A. No Sir I did not.
Q. You went over as quick as you could?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. When you got there, who did you find there?
A. I have a very confused idea. I met Lizzie, at the same time there was somebodyelse there, who I dont know.
Q. Mrs. Churchill?
A. I think so.

I have to ask: from where does this quote come? Thanks!

When Adelaide Churchill says Lizzie was "immaculate, as if she just washed her hands" I think that is quite literally the truth.

--Shelley

If Lizzie was in on the killing and wanted Bridget out of the house in order to make a noise- maybe it was the breaking of the handle to the hatchet? If so, then that might be timed to see how long that might take and to then to hide the blade and handle.

She says “He is worse, I don't know but what Mr. Borden is dead.”

That sounds pretty strong to me- either the severe illness or especially the possibility of death. If I heard that coming from anyone I would count on police, newspapers , doctors, coroners - who knows who all might be called there to the house. And who knows but that Alice thought she may have to go downtown for something related to the situation. Andrew Borden dead or near death on the sofa at home could bring quite a bit of attention. Alice may also have thought maybe Bridget was over-reacting and did not race out just as she was instantly. I would bet if Alice really knew the state Abby and Andrew were in. she may not have given a thought to her appearance and just barreled out the door with Bridget. Many possibilities, too bad we will never know all the answers.

I may have to dig dig dig to find where I once read about Lizzie being spotless or immaculate, which was attributed to Addie- it was a very long time ago that I read that! It stuck in my mind because it seemed not possible under the circumstances- unless maybe Lizzie stopped at the sinkroom when she came in from the hayloft and washed her hands -in the innocent version of course. In any event- there are a LOT of unknowns all around and a million questions on minute details we all wish we could ask now, that nobody asked then. You can make yourself nuts trying figure out all the angles from every point of view. Mostly, the big picture for me was trying to pin down an approximate time frame for Bridget to be out of the house and a probable time frame that Lizzie was left unobserved to herself while the two women were scuttling back and forth, up and down the street on various missions. I feel now that I have a grip on those aspects at least.

In the back of Len Rebello's classic, page 563, there is a map showing the relationship of the buildings in the area of 92 second.

It appears that Alice Russell's house was back off the road and behind another house which I believe was a bakery. This may have been the reason Bridget had a hard time finding it. This is a portion of the map with Alice's house in the upper right corner.

I agree that if there was a sound that Lizzie had to make that she didn't want heard it would be the breaking of the hatchet handle. I was also thinking that maybe Alice did home sewing work for Wilburs...kind of like alterations or mending maybe? I also remember reading somewhere in official testimony I believe that Mrs' Churchill said Lizzie was immaculate as if she had just washed her hands. I am going to have to look that one up.

I would think that the only way to break that handle (which is no easy task) would be to pin it tight in an anvil and strike it hard near the head. There may have been an anvil in the barn- they were pretty common pieces of home equipment and fit on any tool bench. Hatchet handles were always a hardwood, usually oak. It would have taken a hard blow with something substantial to split it off- I would have opted for slipping the handle through the eye which is in the forged head of the tool. Neither would be a simple thing which could be managed in a kitchen. There also may have been something in the cellar which could have done the job.

Of course Adelaide was at the house by the time Bridget got back from Alice's , but still Lizzie sent her away again, back to Bowen's a second time. Poor Maggie was run ragged.
Prelim.:
Q. Did you go for Dr. Bowen more than once?
A. Yes, I went twice.
Q. You went first for Dr. Bowen, and came back, and then went for Miss Russell, and then went for Dr. Bowen again?


A. I went over, Miss Lizzie sent me over, to tell Mrs. Bowen to come over.
Q. Then you went across the street three times?
A. I went twice to Dr. Bowen’s. I went down to Miss Russell’s once.
Q. Did you go over to Mrs. Bowen’s after you came back from Miss Russell’s?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. You went first for Dr. Bowen, then for Miss Russell, and then came back and went for Mrs. Bowen?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. That is the way of it?
A. Yes Sir.

Shelley @ Wed Aug 20, 2008 4:28 pm wrote:... I may have to dig dig dig to find where I once read about Lizzie being spotless or immaculate, which was attributed to Addie- it was a very long time ago that I read that! It stuck in my mind because it seemed not possible under the circumstances- unless maybe Lizzie stopped at the sinkroom when she came in from the hayloft and washed her hands -in the innocent version of course.

Shelley, is it possible you read about Lizzie being immaculate in Victoria Lincoln's book, A Private Disgrace? I assumed this memory was attributed to Mrs. Bowen, although I could be wrong. Actually, Victoria doesn't state exactly whose memory this is...

Page 108 (Bold highlight is mine.):

Lizzie was still in the kitchen rocking-chair. Her eyes were closed, and the pallor that had first startled Addie Churchill had not left her face. Until Mrs. Bowen saw her chin quiver, she thought that Lizzie had fainted. Addie and Alice were hovering over her, Mrs. Bowen, seeing that she was not needed, did not stay. While her memory of Lizzie's costume change in the ten months before the trial, one memory remained constant. Lizzie's hands lying in her lap had looked freshly washed, perfectly cared for, immaculately white, not at all as if she had just been scrounging for scrap iron in a dusty barn.


Also, it was Mrs. Bowen who testified at the trial - Page 1585 (Bold highlight is mine.):

Q. Did you notice anything unusual about the appearance of her hands and face in respect to anything upon them?
A. Nothing upon them, but I noticed how very white they were, her hands especially, as they laid against her dark dress, in her lap.

Might have been. I have only had a chance to check the Prelim tonight and it is not in there in those words.

I hope you can find it - my curiosity is now up too.

Interesting video. Six minutes is quite awhile - more than enough time to do some last minute clean up.

Hmmm, interesting thought, Harry. Maybe Lizzie, did need a few minutes where no one could overhear any kind of a noise. Breaking off a hatchet handle would be a good reason for needing that extra time. It has always struck me as being very odd that Lizzie did not seem to mind being left alone in a house where two of her family members had just been brutally murdered.

For some reason I have this idea that Alice Russell kept the books for some business, is my memory totally off, was it something from the Lizzie's turncoat friend article? Does anyone know what type of business Wilburs was, it might help us determine what type of work would be available to Alice?

Wilbur's was a clothing store. Alice was described as a "confidential bookkeeper".

Thanks! I thought it was a haberdashery for men.

Yes, I always thought it strange too that Lizzie, afraid to be left alone, not wanting to be alone as she told Bridget when she sent her for Alice, sent the only LIVING person outside and away for that span of time but Lizzie herself never stepped OUT of that house of horrors into the driveway or anywhere out of potential harm's way herself. Even if she had just stood outside by the side stairs until help arrived it would have made more sense than staying in the house where anybody could still be lurking, hiding, ready to dash out the only open door. I would have been screaming my head off down the center of Second Street!

Me too, Shelley.

Good memory, Susan!
Maybe Alice brought *the books* home and was allowed to work on them there.

If Alice later became a sewing teacher, would that imply she had sewed from an early age?

Kat

If Alice later became a sewing teacher, would that imply she had sewed from an early age?

To me, it is a good indicator that she might have sewed at an early age but not neccesarily be an implicator. It is my understanding that most young women of that era did sew to some degree or another (even Lizzie sewed) and I knew that Wilburs was a clothing store. I did not know that Alice was a book keeper. (brings up images in my mind of Alice with a visor cap on taking bets) ......LOL oh wait...thats bookie! I did know her mother was a nurse but all I have ever read about Alice as far as occupation that I can remember was that she was a sewing teacher in her later years.

I thought I read she was a sewing teacher at Fall River High School later in life? Th eold Lizzie Borden Quarterly had a nice article about Alice once and the FR His. Society published a great photo of her as an elderly lady.

Again, according to Rebello's book (p63):

"... In 1896, the Fall River School Department added sewing into the schools. Miss Russell was hired to assist Miss Annie L. Hoyt as a fourth and fifth grade sewing teacher. Eleven years later, Miss Russell became a supervisor of sewing, a position she held until her retirement in 1914. ..."

Thank goodness for Rebello! It's a treasure trove for goodies like this.

Yikes! I gotta get going to the dentist for a cleaning. I hate that. Later.

Yes, I wish Len would come out with a Portable Edition we could all carry around with us in our pockets and pocketbook when we are away from home! Back in the early 1960's all the girls at junior high had to take one semester of sewing. It was a real shocker once to have 2 boys in our class. We all had to make an A-line denim skirt. Those were the days- now girls cannot even sew on a button or thread a needle in general!

Ah! This is what I love to see. The film gets released and the ideas and conversations start flowing! Thanks guys for compelling feedback.

I make these films to provoke thought about the c'ase. I don't have the money or resources to do an in depth and fully exploratory film, so I keep them simple and just starting points for discussion, even if the discussion is to point out where the film may be wrong.

Can I get everyone's permission to post some of this discussion on my web site on a special page devoted to the film?

I'd like to put up a single web page for each Lizzie Mini and any feedback will be posted there.

www.gardenbayfilms.com

I won't post anyone's words without their express written permission.

Thanks!

I really enjoyed the video. I think it's a really useful tool that can be used when gathering information. Thanks for posting the link here. I'm looking forward to the future videos. Shelley I've been looking for the reference to Lizzie being immaculate but the closest I've found is the testimony concerning her hands being clean and white, and her hair not being out place.

Thanks- it may well have been in a book somewhere, not a source document. The important point of course, is clean, white, not disheveled in any way, etc. etc. I recall also reading, I think it was the lady newspaper woman who said Lizzie was very fastidiously neat, in her room and appearance. That being the case, I have always wondered WHY such a person would camp out in a filthy loft for 20 minutes, eating juicy fruit. Did she wash up when she came in and forgot to mention that little fact? Of course I do not believe she was ever in the hayloft at all.
I recall that Alice, in her Prelim testimony, also says Mrs. Churchill and she thought it better to move Lizzie to the dining room settee as it was cooler in there than in the kitchen- which makes one wonder- the kitchen even earlier would have been HOTTER still from the breakfast stove, and why on earth would Lizzie hang out in there reading a magazine? So many things do not add up if you scratch deeper underneath what Lizzie says. I think this fact was not lost on the FR police either.

Shelley @ Thu Aug 21, 2008 9:37 am wrote:I thought I read she was a sewing teacher at Fall River High School later in life? Th eold Lizzie Borden Quarterly had a nice article about Alice once and the FR His. Society published a great photo of her as an elderly lady.

Would you have access to it? I would love to see it.

It was in an old FR His. Society newsletter and is probably copyrighted or something. If I can dig it out, I will scan it and send it to you Ellen

Twinsrwe, I believe you have the closest real reference to how clean Lizzie's hands were, in quoting Mrs. Dr. Bowen.
Shell, you have a new quote:
"clean, white, not disheveled in any way", etc. etc.-- may I ask where this comes from? If it's a matter of *casual* quote marks, then maybe there is another way to express that without it appearing that a witness statement is being actually quoted? It can get confusing. Thanks!

That was very interesting to see the word "immaculately white" out of Lincoln, twinsrwe- thank you!

SteveS, thank you for your reply about sewing. That makes sense. I did not recall that Alice's mother was a nurse but I did find it in the Fall River City Directory for 1892 last night - good memory!

I have removed the quotes from the post above.

Probably of more interest and relevance to this thread is this Prelim testimony from Mrs. Churchill. Naturally the BOLD is my own and done to emphasize important points.

Q. Had Bridget returned when you got back?
A. I do not think she had got in there then; she came soon.
Q. Soon after you got there?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. Where was Lizzie when you got back?
A. She was on the stairs when I got back.
Q. The same place you left her?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. Anybody with her then?
A. No Sir.
Q. What did you do then after you went in?
A. I do not remember. I think she got up and came into the kitchen.
Q. Did she sit down in a chair in the kitchen?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. How soon after that did Bridget come in, do you think?
A. Soon I think, I do not know how soon.
Q. Very soon was it?
A. Quite soon, yes sir.
Q. Did you at any time fan Lizzie while she was sitting in the chair there?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. When was that?
A. After Miss Russell came.
Q. How soon after Bridget came did Miss Russell come?
A. Pretty soon.
Q. Did they come in together?
A. I do not remember that.

Okay no mention of white, or immaculate in the prelim- just this:


Mrs. Churchill later on in Prelim about how Lizzie looked:

Q. Now Mrs. Churchill, was there any sign of any blood upon Miss Lizzie that you observed at that time?
A. Not that I saw.
Q. On her face or hands?
A. No Sir.
Q. Or her dress?
A. No Sir.
Q. Or her hair?
A. No Sir.
Q. Do you recollect how her hair was done up?
A. No Sir.
Q. Was it done up in the usual way?
A. Yes, the way she generally wore it.
Q. Did she have anything on her head?
A. What do you mean?
Q. A hat or bonnet or cap, or anything of that kind, any covering on her head?
A. No Sir.
Q. I suppose ladies all understand what I mean by the hair being done up; was her hair done up?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. It was not down her back, it was not loose, it was not hanging in a braid?
A. No Sir.
Q. It was what is called done up on her head as usual?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. Did you observe anything out of the way about it, its being disarranged?
A. No Sir.
Q. You saw no blood upon it?
A. No Sir.
Q. Did it appear to be wet or anything of that kind?

I was recalling "disarranged"- not disheveled.

Alice Russell, Prelim:Q. Did you notice whether there was any blood on her or not?
A. I did not see anything.
Q. On her hands?
A. No Sir.
Q. Did you see her hands?
A. Yes Sir, I rubbed them.
Q. Were there any signs of any blood on them?
A. No Sir.
Q. Did you observe her face?

A. I bathed her face.
Q. Were there any signs of blood on it?
A. No Sir.
Q. Or on her hair?
A. No Sir.
Q. Was her hair done up, as usual?
A. I think it must have been, or I would have noticed it.
Q. Did you notice any signs of blood on that?
A. No Sir.
Q. Did you notice any signs of blood on her clothing, or her dress?
A. No Sir.

Mr. Sawyer:

Q. Did you look at her?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. Did you see any signs of blood on her?
A. No Sir.
Q. Was her hair disarranged at all?
A. No Sir.
Q. Were there any signs of blood on her hands?
A. No Sir, not that I saw.
Q. Did you see Miss Russell bathing her face or hands?
A. I saw them ministering to her in different ways.
Q. Did you see any blood on her dress, or any signs of anything of that kind?
A. No Sir, nothing.

Mrs. Bowen::

Q. Did you see any signs of blood on the towel after Miss Russell had bathed her face?
A. No Sir.
Q. Did you see any blood on her hands?
A. No Sir.
Q. Did Miss Russell bathe her hands?
A. No Sir. Miss Russell said "rub her hands". Lizzie made the motion, no.
Q. Shook her head?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. You saw her hair; was that disarranged, or not?
A. Not at all.
Q. It seemed as it usually did?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. How about her clothing, any spots of blood on it?
A. I saw none.

Thanks for the info, Harry, and thank you, Kat. You know I always have to check myself with some of the things I remember as they sometimes turn out to be Lincolnisms, but, I guess I was right on this time. A clothing store, hmmm. Alice could have been keeping the books for them and she could have also been doing something like alterations for the store selling ready made clothing. Or both?

Yes, Richard, you have my permission if you want to use any of my posts on this thread.