Lizzie Borden Society Forum

Things that really make me wonder why.

Why did they have a mason break through the chimney? (pg. 65 in the prelim) Also Dr. Dolan was asked about taking up bricks in the cellar. He answered: "I think two or three were up when we were down there, had been up before." Did the cellar originally have a brick floor? Even if it did, I don't think Lizzie would have had time to dig up brick & hide anything. Also how would she get anything "into" the chimney itself.

The stovepipe could have been pulled out of the chimney and a hatchet tossed into the hole. It would fall to the base of the chimney, probably into a pile of soot and ash.

Only the washroom in the cellar was brick in 1892- this is the room where the open chimney with the wash cauldron is located. The rest of the floor was dirt, some of it covered by planks. I always wanted to take a metal detector down that cellar!

That wouldn't be a bad idea, because I just had the wierdest thought. If Lizzie really planned this, wouldn't it be something if she loosened a few bricks, hid the weapon, then replaced them so it wouldn't show.

Interesting thoughts! If the murders were pre-meditated, sure, Lizzie could have rigged a hiding place for the hatchet ahead of time. That's an exciting idea!

Shelley, I hope you do go down there with a metal detector! Great idea!

I've always wondered about that cellar dirt floor. I mentioned a while back that she could have dug some dirt up in an obscure place, hid the weapon, packed it down and put something heavy like an old trunk or something over the spot. I'm surprised no one has yet gone down there with a metal detector to check out the floor. How exciting!

Shelley,
Why has no one else thought of that before???
My dad has a metal detector! Maybe I should come up some weekend and see what we can find! Might as well, he got it as a gift anf has only used it once and he wanted one sooooo badly!
Pammie

Well, the cellar was concreted over a long time ago but the metal would still register beneath it. I have said for years that the police should have pulled up those floor boards which were just laid over the dirt in some areas. There is still one little area of dirt in the back of the chimney. LeeAnn was busy pulling down the front brick wall in the cellar last year- it is only a liner wall. We had thought maybe we could drop an optic cable down there. Lizzie's second trip to the cellar has always been a mystery to me and the police only saw her a short time- he would not have been able to see her as she roamed around. I think the weapon, the stained dress or both were concealed there for a time.

That's what I thought about, her second trip to the cellar. She wasn't down there long so if she did hide something, it had to be planned out & ready for her so that it would only take a few minutes.

How much would it cost to rent a metal detector that showed an image of the object? It would be so neat if the mutton eaters did this together to see if there is something hidden. Talk about making history if something was found!!!! OK, OK, I know I'm dreaming again.

I am all over it! Maybe we can do this in November when we all try to get together to see Lizzie Borden Live in Providence!

In The Knowlton Papers there was this suggestion by letter about a supposed OUIJA session, undated, 1893, about some things buried in the cellar:

Partial
Q. What about the Borden case?
A. Axe - Turkey red - vest - suds - stairs.

Q. Was it her father's vest?
A. His vest

Q. What about Turkey red?
A. Paint

Q. What dress did she wear?
A. No dress

Q. Didn't she wear anything?
A. Yes, trousers.

Q. Who wore them?
A. She

Q. Bridget?
A. No; Lizzie

Q. What did she do with the things?
A. Bury

Q. Where?
A. Yard -

Q. What part of the yard?
A. Cellar - furnace - underneath earth

Q. Are they buried there?
A. Yes.

Q. All?
A. No; some burned

Page 340

Q. Where did she burn them?
A. Kitchen - wet clothes - trousers bury

Q. Did she kill both her father and mother?
A. Undoubtedly

Q. Did she bury the axe?
A. No - burn handle

Q. What did she do with the rest of it?
A. Box

Q. You mean she put it in a box?
A. Yes

Q. Will they be found?
A. No - too sharp

Q. Who hid them?
A. J. Morse hid things under the earth

Q. Does Dr. Bowen know anything about it?
A. All

Q. Did Lizzie tell him?
A. In her chamber let it out

Q. When did Morse bury things?
A. Thursday - 8 P.M.

Q. Did Morse spend Thursday night there?
A. Went out to hotel at 9 P.M.

Q. What about note to Mrs. Borden?
A. No none

Q. Lizzie made it up?
A. All

Q. Was Mrs. Reagan's story true?
A. Yes

Page 341

Q. Will she be found guilty?
A. Never

Q. Will Emma's testimony save her?
A. Lies

Q. Were the hat and trousers buried in yard with Mr. and Mrs. Borden's clothes?
A. No

Q. Are the things still buried in the cellar?
A. Still

Q. Could we find them?
A. Yes

Q. Any trace?
A. Puddle

Q. Where?
A. Cellar

Q. Puddle of what?
A. Mud

Q. Where?
A. Cellar

Q. What part?
A. Furnace

Any mention of anyone looking around the cellar for the puddle, or looking under the furnace?

The OUIJA session seems pretty bogus: and it says that Lizzie killed her yellow cat (seemingly after it jumped onto the lap of a *Jim Wilder*- sound familiar?) and gives the date as July 7, 1890. But Lizzie was in Europe then on her tour.

There's more at:
http://lizzieandrewborden.com/Diversion/PsychicFile.htm

I just found a note that I made to myself in the Prelim book and realized I never asked about it. At the beginning at the bottom of Page 18. Mr. Knowlton asks Dr. Dolan:
Q: Did you know anything about cutting off the jamb of the door?
A: Yes Sir.
Q: Did you see that done?
A: I did not see it done, no sir.
Q: Was it done under your directions?
A: Yes Sir.
Q: Was the piece give to you?
A: No Sir it was given to the marshal
Q: Did you receive it from the marshal?
A: No Sir, it is in his custody downstairs.

Why would you actually cut a piece of the door jamb? If he wanted to study it for the blood pattern, then why not just take a picture. I mean he could have said cut a piece of the wall, or cut a piece of the floor, but that wasn't done. Why the door jamb?

There were pieces taken away from the house.
You can see what made it into evidence here:
http://lizzieandrewborden.com/CrimeLibr ... ctEvidence

The Trial of Lizzie A. Borden. Upon an indictment charging her with the murders of Abby Durfee Borden and Andrew Jackson Borden. Before the Superior Court for the County of Bristol. Presiding, C.J. Mason, J.J. Blodgett, and J.J. Dewey. Official stenographic report by Frank H. Burt (New Bedford, MA., 1893, 2 volumes).

"The following articles which had been offered in evidence during the progress of the trial were selected from among the exhibits in the case by counsel and sent to the jury:

Pages 1927-1928
Plans and photographs marked as exhibits in the case.
Skulls of Mr. and Mrs. A. J. Borden.
Bedspread and pillow shams.
Handkerchief found by Mrs. Borden's body.
Piece of doorframe taken from inside of dining room.
Piece of moulding taken from guest chamber west of dressing case.
Piece of plaster.
Two axes.
Claw-hammer hatchet.
Hatchet with plain head.
Handleless hatchet and bit of wood.
Blue blouse and dress skirt.
White skirt.
Magnifying glass.
~ ~ ~ ~
Pages 1608+
LIST OF EXHIBITS.

1. Large plan, showing main street and other streets.
2. Plan of Borden premises, and surrounding estates.
3. Plan of Borden premises, including ground floor of house.
4. Plan of Borden premises, including second story.
5. Plan of sitting room.
6. Blue print of Exhibit 3.
7. Blue print of Exhibit 4.
8. Blue print of Borden premises and surrounding estates.
9. Plan of cellar.
10 - 14. Photographs of Borden house.
15 - 19. Photographs of bodies.
20 - 21. Carpets.
22. Tag attached to jar containing Mr. Borden's stomach.
23. Tag attached to jar containing Mrs. Borden's stomach.
24 - 43. Small photographs of Borden premises.
44. Pin produced by Mr. Adams for comparison, in connection with testimony of Professor Wood.
(All item numbers inclusive.)"

There's a photo of the guest room with the carpet cut out, where Abbie had lain.

Is the door jamb to which you refer from the dining room doorway? If so, you can find that the "string" mark there was deemed not to be blood after all, but opined to be tobacco or soup, so it's a good thing they took it, I guess.

Thanks for the list Kat. I haven't seen that list before, it gives me another view of what was actually at the trial. I'm about half way through the prelim & just keep sticking little papers everywhere I have a question. I can't imagine being Lizzie & seeing death photos of her father & stepmother.

One thing about getting over the flu is that your too weak to do anything but sit. When I sit I usually read, so I'm back reading the prelim hearing and of course I have more questions.
On pg 166 of Bridget's testimony:
She states: I could see her (Mrs. Borden) as I went in. Of course the bed was not a very high bed, I could see her body, her dress, and then I stood at the foot of the bed and looked at her.
Q - What did you do then? A - I came downstairs
Q - Did anyone else come by that time?
A - No Sir, Mrs. Churchill came with me. I do not know whether she went into the room or not, I cannot tell. Me and Her came down stairs, and she told Dr. Bowen that Mrs. Borden was up stairs.

Then I read Mrs. Churchill's testimony.
Q - Did you come down with Bridget, or come down alone, when you came down?
A - I came down alone.
Q - You left Bridget up there?
A - Yes Sir
Q - You do not know what she did after you came down?
A - No Sir.


So my questions are: "Was Bridget up there alone?" and for how long? Could she have tampered with any evidence up there? Like cleaning up something or hiding something that shouldn't be seen?
I was surprised when I read this because I always thought that Bridget did no want to go up there at all, and here she goes right into the room without hesitation.

Yes Bridget was up there alone. I looked at the same material as you are here whilst researching my article on the Bloody Handkerchief found with Abbie's body. It includes this scene, actually, in the 3rd paragraph.
(The carpet was dark coloured, the blood was dark coloured, the handkerchief was described as dark as well, so not everyone noticed it.)

If Bridget was up there any length of time, Mrs. Churchill might have realized that, but you're right that Bridget might have got up to something --if she was quick enough. She did not look at Mr. Borden, so this behavior is different from that downstairs.

Nadzieja @ Fri Jan 02, 2009 7:32 am wrote:On pg 166 of Bridget's testimony:
She states: I could see her (Mrs. Borden) as I went in. Of course the bed was not a very high bed, I could see her body, her dress, and then I stood at the foot of the bed and looked at her.
Q - What did you do then? A - I came downstairs
Q - Did anyone else come by that time?
A - No Sir, Mrs. Churchill came with me. I do not know whether she went into the room or not, I cannot tell. Me and Her came down stairs, and she told Dr. Bowen that Mrs. Borden was up stairs.

Then I read Mrs. Churchill's testimony.
Q - Did you come down with Bridget, or come down alone, when you came down?
A - I came down alone.
Q - You left Bridget up there?
A - Yes Sir
Q - You do not know what she did after you came down?
A - No Sir.

So my questions are: "Was Bridget up there alone?" and for how long? Could she have tampered with any evidence up there? Like cleaning up something or hiding something that shouldn't be seen?
I was surprised when I read this because I always thought that Bridget did no want to go up there at all, and here she goes right into the room without hesitation.

It's interesting that Bridget says they came down together and Mrs. Churchill says they did not. Their Trial testimonies don't seem to shed any light on who is correct. Mrs. Churchill in her Inquest testimony is quite clear that she came back alone. Page 129:

"Then Lizzie said she wished someone would go and try to find Mrs. Borden up stairs, so I went with Bridget. I think Bridget went ahead of me. I got half way up the front stairs, I got just far enough so my head was level with the front entry floor, I turned my head to the left, and in turning my head to the left, I could see straight across the spare bed room floor, and at the north side of the bed I saw something that looked like a prostrate form of something. I could distinguish nothing, the room was not light, it was a little darker, darker than down stairs. It looked more than any mat would be on the floor. I turned around and went back. I dont know whether I said out loud “that must be her”. I think Bridget went up stairs, how far she went, I dont know, because I was so shocked. I went down stairs, went into the dining room, and Alice Russell says, “is there another”? “Yes, she is up there”.

It would be nice to know how long Bridget was up there by herself. In any case she seemed to have recovered from her fright of going upstairs for the sheet.

Kat @ Fri Jan 02, 2009 5:20 pm wrote:Yes Bridget was up there alone. I looked at the same material as you are here whilst researching my article on the Bloody Handkerchief found with Abbie's body. It includes this scene, actually, in the 3rd paragraph.
(The carpet was dark coloured, the blood was dark coloured, the handkerchief was described as dark as well, so not everyone noticed it.)

If Bridget was up there any length of time, Mrs. Churchill might have realized that, but you're right that Bridget might have got up to something --if she was quick enough. She did not look at Mr. Borden, so this behavior is different from that downstairs.

Not really that much different because didn't Bridget try and go in to see Mr. Borden as soon as Lizzie called her down but Lizzie stopped her from going in the room.

I keep picturing Bridget fixing Abbie's skirts for modesty. I think someone did. The description of Bertha Manchester's body was that it was pretty exposed it sounds like- her legs that is (they called them *limbs* back then). She tried to crawl away whilst being clobbered and left drag marks in her blood and that raised her skirts somewhat.

I'm having a hard time finding that SteveS, by search terms. Where is it please? Thanks a bunch!

I'm reading the prelim testimony of Patrick Doherty. On p 258 he is asked:
Q - When did you first see Mr. Morse there?
A - I saw Mr. Morse in the room when I got back from the telephone, when I was looking at Mrs. Borden's body. He stood in the room with his hand on the foot of the bed.

So here again there is someone alone with Mrs. Borden's body. There seems that between Bridget & Mr. Morse depending on how much time they had, couldn't it be feasible enough to hide something or straighten out something.

On the page before p 257 he talks about a search of everything but one room. He says: " We came down and went through all the rooms, all but one that I have since heard about, that I did not go through. We looked in all the other rooms, and we finished in the cellar.
Q - Which room was it you did not look in?
A - Miss Emma's, I believe.
Q - You did not go in that room?
A - No sir.

Was it on purpose they didn't know or were told of this room?

This hatchet wasn't so big that it couldn't be hidden. Could "they" whoever was responsible, or whoever was trying to cover for someone, been moving & hiding this more than once so no one would find it? The way the house was searched was not done methodically. So they didn't cover the house well, and they seemed to keep missing sections.

In MY opinion only--- Is it possible that the hatchet could have been so hidden in a wall or floor, in a piece of furniture, or even in a mattress?
If all this was pre-planned it doesn't seem too far fetched.
If it was hidden in furniture or a mattress it would probably be long gone. If a wall or floor---I haven't heard anything, but has anyone gone over the house with a metal detector.

Like I said this is my opinion only. The reason will seem strange, but I'm going to tell you all why. I'm only second generation born here. I knew my grandmother (who originally came here in 1907 by herself at the age of 16). She hid more stuff in her apartment than you would believe. I would watch her go into a closet that looked like it had more stuff put in there, and she would pull out a box of whatever or a linen handkerchief all ironed and all I could think of was --where'd she get that out of that disarray?
My dad who was born here, you wouldn't believe the stuff we found in our own cellar after he passed away. One thing my mother didn't even know he had down there. It really floored me because some things were in plain sight others were almost hidden in plain sight. The wierd thing was he never told anyone about any of this, which makes me think that being a different era in history is this the way people protected things ? And again-----it is only my own opiion.

Nadzieja @ Sun Jan 04, 2009 6:52 am wrote: . . .
On the page before p 257 he talks about a search of everything but one room. He says: " We came down and went through all the rooms, all but one that I have since heard about, that I did not go through. We looked in all the other rooms, and we finished in the cellar.
Q - Which room was it you did not look in?
A - Miss Emma's, I believe.
Q - You did not go in that room?
A - No sir.

Was it on purpose they didn't know or were told of this room? . . .

Just a small point. While Doherty may not have gone into Emma's room -- at the trial, Fleet (rather reluctantly) testifies that officers did search her room:

"A. I searched the room of Lizzie and of Emma Borden.
Q. I would like to have you begin in the order in which you made them.
A. Well, we will commence with Lizzie's room then. I searched Lizzie's room and Emma's room.
Q. Who were there?
A. Officers Wilson and Minnehan.
Q. And yourself?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. Who else were in the room?
A. At that time?
Q. Yes, sir.
A. Dr. Bowen, Mrs. Holmes, and Lizzie Borden.
Q. Was Mr. Buck there then?
A. No, sir.
Q. Mrs. Charles J. Holmes?
A. That is right.
Q. Now what did you three do, what did you look at in that room?
A. We looked in the drawers.
Q. Well, go on.
A. Round the bed, under the bed, into Emma's bedroom. We didn't look as closely as we might have done.
Q. Well I would like to have you tell me what you did do. You looked into the bed, you said?
A. Yes, sir. We didn't look closely in the bed. We felt round the head of the bed, and didn't take things off as we should have done.
Q. Well, no matter about that, that is no part of the answer.
A. No, sir; we did not.
Q. Well, you had free liberty to do it after you went into the room?
A. Yes, we had, as officers, of course.
Q. Well, I don't ask about officers. Nobody interfered with you?
A. No." (Fleet, trial p. 490+)

As is the case with so many passages, this is rather muddy testimony. It's not clear whether those details of the search, i.e. feeling round the head of the bed etc., refer to their time in Lizzie's room or Emma's. And although he admits they were looking for a murder weapon, Fleet is obviously suggesting their searches were so cursory something could have been missed.

"Q. How much time did you spend there?
A. Oh, a very few minutes.
Q. Were you looking for the man that committed the murder in there?
A. Or any instrument.
Q. You didn't really expect to find the murderer in there?
A. Not at that time; no, sir.
Q. And you were looking for the instrument?
A. Yes, sir " (Fleet, trial, p. 491)

Yes Kat, I got it from bridget's trial testimony. The part where bridget is testifying to when Lizzie called her downstairs.

Q. Did you say anything to her at that time or she to you?

A. I went around to go right in the sitting-room and she says "oh Maggie, don't go in I have got to have a Dr. quick..........."

And I have always been disappointed that Emma's closet was not examined after one of the policemen mentioned seeing Emma's shallow closet door cracked open and something "rolled up on the floor" was glimpsed. I would have rooted around on that floor like a truffle hog!

When Morse was seen in the guest room:

"By 11:45 that morning- after Officer Doherty had been to view the bodies, moved the bed away from Mrs. Borden to check her wounds, gone to telephone the station, and returned- there were almost a dozen men in the house of horror, and three ladies with Lizzie, administering to her. When Doherty next entered the chamber of that greusome murder of the elderly defenseless woman, there were now two doctors, Bowen and M.E. Dolan, and Mr. Borden's brother-in-law, Mr. Morse. While Officer Allen looked on, Officer Mullaly assisted Doherty in turning Abby so her face was exposed..."
--from "On the Trail of the Bloody Handkerchief," by Kat Koorey, Hatchet Vol. 5, Issue 23,Aug/Sept 2008.

From this you can tell there were lots of people in the house and some in the guest room. Morse arrived around 11:45. In his testimony he says he did not go into the room.

In reponse to:

I'm reading the prelim testimony of Patrick Doherty. On p 258 he is asked:
Q - When did you first see Mr. Morse there?
A - I saw Mr. Morse in the room when I got back from the telephone, when I was looking at Mrs. Borden's body. He stood in the room with his hand on the foot of the bed.

So here again there is someone alone with Mrs. Borden's body. There seems that between Bridget & Mr. Morse depending on how much time they had, couldn't it be feasible enough to hide something or straighten out something.

--Nadzieja

Thanks SteveS! What do you surmise from this- that Bridget may have wanted to enter the sitting room to see Andrew but may have been forestalled by Lizzie? And did enter the guest room to stand looking at Abbie? And yet seemed afraid* to go up the back stairs alone to Mrs. Borden's room thru a locked door and thru a stairway she had recently traveled down upon the summons of Lizzie?

*Inquest 129, Mrs. Churchill says she went up stairs with Bridget to get a sheet because Bridget "did not want to go alone."

Yes Kat, I always found that bit of behaviour from Bridget odd. She seems to have no problem wanting to view a dead body once it is discovered but yet she was afraid to go up to the Borden's bedroom alone. That just seems very odd to me.

Do you suppose she had a morbid interest in seeing the body of someone she knew? Or maybe she did not think first before wanting to look in at something like that?
Anything to do with coming from a large family and maybe had already experienced the facts of birth and death first hand? Or maybe she was not affected by scenes like that?
She did seem affected later tho over that night and succeeding days- maybe she just didn't think about it beforehand. Maybe she later wished she had not seen something like that?

When John Fleet testified at the Preliminary Hearing (p 278) --When he goes to look in Lizzie's room, Dr. Bowen was in there holding the door. That whole bottom of the page, in the exchange between John Fleet & Dr. Bowen, then John Fleet & Lizzie. I get the impression that Dr. Bowen & Lizzie acted very irritated that John Fleet wanted to come in & search. It's almost as if he interrupted them in the middle of something.
Lizzie's impatience shows when she talks about how long she was in the barn. She keeps repeating 20 min. to half an hour and the last time she says it it looks like she said something really nasty to Fleet. When he was saying it at trial the book notes (witness added two words which were objected to, and Mr. Knowlton agreed might be stricken out.)
Do you think Dr. Bowen was trying to hide something or do you think he was just trying to protect Lizzie from all that was going on?

I think Bridgets wanting to view Andrew and then Abby is simply human nature. Like us in todays world, passing a car accident, part of you can't help but to want to look. Perhaps it is part fear of the unknown mixed with curiousity and a pinch of morbid curiousity? That by viewing something like this will give us more insight into protecting ourselves from having the same fate? For some reason there is something so magnetic about death and disasters that springs from deep within the human psyche. Perhaps it is a throwback to our caveman days, a survival instinct that makes us want to look and know and learn what we can to keep ourselves alive? It would be interesting to hear what a psychiatrist has to say about this trait in people. I would imagine its perfectly healthy as long as someone didn't develop a morbid curiousity with something where they went out of their way to view atrocities.


Nadzieja, when I read through that passage in the preliminaries, I had to laugh. The two words that were stricken that came to my mind were "you ass". Who knows? But, if she did have a headache and Fleet kept pestering her about her time in the barn that she thought she had made perfectly clear, I could see a bit of swearing involved. Heres the particular passage:

I
said in the meantime "you say Miss Borden, that you went out in the barn this morning, and remained
out a half an hour". She says "no sir I do not." "What do you say then"? "I say that I went out in the
barn, and was out there from twenty minutes to a half an hour." "You told me this morning, or you told
me when I saw you before that you was in there for half an hour." Well, she says "I do not say so now, I
was there I say from twenty minutes to half an hour". I says "what do you make it now, twenty
minutes?" She says "no, from twenty minutes to half an hour," ---(Witness added two words which were
objected to, and Mr. Knowlton agreed might be stricken out.)

Perhaps Dr. Bowen was doing his best to protect his client and friend. If Lizzie said she didn't feel well, it was his duty as her doctor to do the best he could to make her feel better. As a family friend and a man, it was his duty to try to shield her from the ugliness going on around her as best he could. I wonder if Dr. Bowen shut the door and just told Lizzie that if she wanted, he would tell Fleet to go away for today, that she wasn't well. Or, if she could, to answer his questions now and be done with him and then she could rest?

That's a good answer Susan.
I remember where Harrington said Lizzie told him
*I can answer you now just as good as at any time*- when he thought to ask her if she wished to wait to make a statement. She sounds a bit touchy and contrary here, in these views of her, I think.

Here is the quote from The Witness Statements
pages 5 & 6:
...so I say it may be better for you not to submit to an interview until tomorrow, when you may be better able to recite what you know of the circumstances.” To this she replied “no, I think I can tell you all I know now, just as well as at any other time.” This conversation took place in Lizzie’s room, on the second floor, in the presence of Miss Alice Russell, who sat in a chair by the door which leads to the front hall, by which I entered Lizzie’s room.

Miss Russell was very pale, and much agitated, which she showed by short sharp breathing and wringing her hands. She spoke not a word.

Lizzie stood by the foot of the bed, and talked in the most calm and collected manner; her whole bearing was most remarkable under the circumstances. There was not the least indication of agitation, no sign of sorrow or grief, no lamentation of the heart, no comment on the horror of the crime, and no expression of a wish that the criminal be caught. All this, and something that, to me, is indescribable, gave birth to a thought that was most revolting. I thought, at least, she knew more than she wished to tell.

I arrived at the house about 12.15 or 12.20 M. The conversation with Lizzie was about five minutes later.- partial

Do you have the clock time when Fleet was there?

From Fleet's preliminary testimony, volume 4, page 354:

Q. Have you any idea what time you got there?
A. Yes; I think sometime between quarter to 12 and 12 o'clock; perhaps ten minutes to 12.

Hmmm, I noticed there was another instance where something that Fleet said was objected to and stricken out. It is during his first visit with Lizzie when he questioned her in her room with Rev. Buck and Alice Russell present. It was from one of the questions he said that he asked Lizzie, now I wonder if the other two words were something that he had added himself?

Oh, and you're welcome, Kat.

I went back & read Fleet's testimony again, and something just doesn't sit right.
Fleet says: I went to the door, and found that Dr. Bowen was in there holding the door.
Q. What?
A. Dr. Bowen was in there, and he held the door. I told him what I wanted to do, I wanted to get in there, and search the room and search the house pretty thoroughly. He said he would see Miss Lizzie. He said he had been bothered considerable, and he would see Miss Lizzie. "Just wait a moment". I waited.

Why would he be bothered considerable? I understand about him wanting to "protect" a friend and client. However, what did he think was going to happen in a situation like this? Did he think they would stop looking because he was "bothered" and being a doctor he could throw his weight around. It just hits me a little strange. I wish I knew a little more about Dr. Bowen and what kind of person he was.

SteveS. @ Wed Jan 07, 2009 1:03 am wrote:Yes Kat, I always found that bit of behaviour from Bridget odd. She seems to have no problem wanting to view a dead body once it is discovered but yet she was afraid to go up to the Borden's bedroom alone. That just seems very odd to me.

Bridget may have been exhibiting the fear that an intruder might still be lurking somewhere in the house. That bit of common sense was lacking in others that day for some reason.

Maybe that is a misprint and might be "she"?

I checked the original Prelim. copy we have and it has "he" also.
I had made a note there on the paper, as well.

I kept reading and maybe it was Dr. Bowen talking about himself. On page 359 Mr. Knowlton questioned him.
Q. You were not looking at it as a physician would look at an ordinary case?
A. No Sir. I was satisfying myself she was dead.
Q. You were then, if you will pardon me for saying so, quite excited?
A. I was.
Q. You were very excited?
A. Yes Sir.

On page 356 Dr. Bowen speaks about his memory being in the same condition as that day he says I do not think it is quite so good now.

Then on page 357 he is questioned about his emotions again;
Q. Dr. Bowen it was an awful sight was it not?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. It effected you to tears, did it not, Doctor?
A. No Sir.
Q. When you came out from that room into the other room, were there not tears streaming down your cheeks?
A. I should not think so.
Q. Would you say they were not, if anybodyelse said so?
A. I should want more than one to say it, or two or three.

So I take it that he was very emotionally upset. Which brings me to question how close of a friend was he to this family. I was always under the impression that the Borden family wasn't anti social but weren't exactly social butterflies either.

Any other opinions?

Partial quote:

Nadzieja @ Tue Jan 27, 2009 4:13 pm wrote:So I take it that he was very emotionally upset. Which brings me to question how close of a friend was he to this family. I was always under the impression that the Borden family wasn't anti social but weren't exactly social butterflies either.

Any other opinions?

That's a good question, Lorraine. There's not too much information to make a sure determination, just little incidents.

Lizzie apparently liked Dr. Bowen at least to some degree. He did escort her to church one time and he was the first person she sent for after "discovering" her father. While she was in prison he sent flowers on at least one occasion. The Bowen's were invited to the funeral services.

Alice Russell has this to say in her letter of June 2, 1893 describing what Lizzie told her on Lizzie's visit of Aug. 3rd, 1892:

"... She told me of Mrs. Borden going over to see Dr. Bowen. Mrs. Borden said she was afraid they had been poisoned. Mrs. Borden met Mr. Borden in the entry on her way out, and told him where she was going. Lizzie said "her father did not like it and said my money shant pay for it. But she went over. I asked her what Dr. Bowen said she replied, he laughed when Mrs. Borden told what she feared, and said it was not poison. Mrs. Borden had told the doctor about Mr. Borden's being sick and he went over to see him. Lizzie said "the way father used Dr. Bowen - why I was so mortified. I don't know what the doctor will think I am sure." After he had gone Mrs. Borden scolded. She said I am ashamed for you to use Dr. Bowen so. Mr. Borden said "well I don't want him coming over here Dr. Handy style." Mrs. B. said he didn't come over here Dr. Handy style. I told him you were sick and he came over to see you and I think it is a shame you can't treat him decent. He is all the neighbors we have got and I think it is too bad."

Wow!! Harry, this sure brings up alot of questions. Who did Alice Russell write this letter to?
It seems Andrew was not happy with Dr. Bowen coming over, I'm sure he was thinking about the cost, however what does he mean "Dr. Handy" style? Also why does Lizzie think that her father had "used" Dr. Bowen?

Mrs. Borden's last comment is a little disturbing. The Borden's have people all around them and she says "He's all the neighbors we have got and I think it is too bad." It sound to me like she's quite lonely and that for some reason she doesn't feel comfortable with the others around her. Or Andrew - maybe he alienated everyone else and doesn't want his wife out & about visiting people. (Being so "frugal" maybe he thinks it is too frivolous a pastime.)
It seems the Lizzie & Emma have friends, but Abby is stuck and alone.

The term "used" in this context is another way of saying "treated" -my grandparents also gave this meaning to the word. Lizzie did not like the way her father "treated" Dr. Bowen is the idea. Example: The horse was ill-used by an abusive master. Rarely do you hear "used" utilized with this meaning these days. "Used" has developed another meaning- that of being taken advantage of. Many Victorian words have now taken on all new meanings today-or have become totally obsolete.

Thank you so much for clearing that up. I know words that have changed meaning even since I was a kid, so I can't imagine from that long ago.

The letter is in the Knowlton papers and was to Mr. Moody (HK212, p227). Written 3 days before Lizzie's trial began it is a summary of what Alice said Lizzie told her the evening before the crimes.

Apparently, Dr. Handy, at least in Andrew's mind made house calls without being asked. As far as I know there's no source for that other than Andrew's comment.

I don't believe Abby was as friendless as believed nor was she a recluse.

Mrs. Bowen testified at the Preliminary hearing (p478):

"Q. You have known the Borden family all your life, have you?
A. I think I have always known Emma Borden, and have known Miss Lizzie since she has lived on the street, twenty years.
Q. You have lived at the same house all your life?
A. Always.
Q. And have been in the habit of going there frequently?
A. Yes.
Q. And were very friendly with them?
A. Yes."

Apparently she was fond of Abby. She had to be sent home from the house when she found out that Abby was also dead.

Thank you for your post Harry. Unfortunately the two books that I don't have are The Knowlton Papers and Lizzie Borden Past & Present. It's not that I haven't tried, I haven't been able to get a bid high enough. Someday I hope to get lucky. Thanks again

I finished the prelim hearing & I'm going back & looking at the questions I put on sticky notes on different pages.

The testimony on pg 86 of Abram Hart--
Q. That is the last time you saw him?
A. Yes sir, he was in after that, but I was out. I know he was in, by the word that came to me.

I read the whole thing a couple times & it sounds as if Mr. Borden was in the bank twice that day.
What does everyone else think?

Sounds like it. According to Len, there were the two banks in the one building, and you had to go out and in different doors to get to the 2 banks. The last bank he went to was the corner of Bank St. and North Main. I suspect he may have gone in Citizens Union, then next door to the other bank, and then back into Citizens. The doors were very close together- maybe he had to deposit something from one bank to the other. The last bank was on the opposite side of the street and a short block away.

That’s an interesting point about Andrew returning to the National Union/Union Savings Bank building on the morning of August 4th.

In the Witness Statements John T. Burrill made the following statement: “Andrew J. Borden came into the Bank, as near as we can place the time, about ten o’clock. He went to the rear of the Bank, and looked in the rooms, probably for Mr. Hart; and finding no one, went out, remarking something about calling again. He did not call again. He was alone.” (W.S., page 30)

But at the Preliminary Hearing, when Burrill is asked, “Do you remember,or do you not remember that [Andrew Borden] came back again afterwards to go to Mr. Hart’s room, but Mr. Hart was not there?” He replies:” I am not sure I was there at that time; I only know that by hearsay.”

So who told him?

As Nadzieja says, Abraham Hart also says at the Preliminary Hearing that Andrew came back after the two had spoken around 9:30 a.m but Hart was out and only knew of Andrew's return "by the word that came to me”.

Who gave the word to Mr. Hart?

At trial, neither Burrill nor Hart mention anything about a second visit by Andrew.
------------


The banks that Andrew visited that morning were the Union Savings Bank which shared space with the National Union Bank at No. 3 Market Square – and the B.M.C. Durfee Safe Deposit and Trust which shared space with the First National Bank on North Main Street. I'm sure a lot of banks have changed names since that time, so perhaps the Citizens Union bank Shelley refers to is one of the above?

According to Burrill’s testimony the National Union Bank and the Union Savings Bank were in the same room. And Everett Cook, cashier of the First National Bank testified that First National and B.M.C. Durfee were not only in the same room, they also shared the same counter (Trial, 166+) So it makes me wonder why they felt the need for separate doors in either of these two buildings? Maybe everyone just wanted their name on the door?

Yes, the Citizen's Union building is a relatively new one, the first one being a victim, I believe, of the big fire. I am guessing that Citizen's Union today is the former Union Savings bank. Last year Richard and I had a ball poking around in the original vaults of the former B.M.C. Durfee Safe Deposit and Trust which shared space with the First National Bank .
I was so disappointed when I learned that today's Citizen's Union was NOT the same building Andrew went into- after taking so many photos and clucking to all the tellers! Nailing down exact locations in Fall River is a bit of a minefield since the city re-numbered, fire claimed buildings which were replaced by new ones, and familiar markers of 1892 are no more. It's always a risk of being wrong.

Good evening. This is my first post, but I've been reading this forum for a while.

I know I need to pore over the transcripts, but one question I've always had: how do we know that Abby Borden really told Bridget to wash the windows? We know that Bridget SAID Abby did, but does Lizzie ever corroborate that?

Hi Goddess and welcome to the forum.

Another source is Uncle John Morse. He testified at the Preliminary, p251:

"Q. The next morning you took breakfast with Mr. Borden and with Mrs. Borden?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. Do you recollect whether there was any directions given by Mrs. Borden to Bridget about what she should do that day?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. When was that?
A. While we were at breakfast.
Q. What was it?
A. That she was to wash the windows.
Q. Can you recollect the conversation, the substance of it, between the two, when she gave that order?
A. I think in the first place she asked her what she was going to do, or some thing of that kind.
Q. Who was that?
A. Mrs. Borden asked Bridget what she had got to do. Bridget said I have nothing more than common work; I think something them words.
Q. Then what was said?
A. Well, she says, will you wash the windows. She said that she would.
Q. Did she name what windows, say anything about whether outside or inside?
A. I do not know that she did.
Q. Had Bridget begun to wash to windows, so far as you know, before you went away?
A. I do not know.'

However, Bridget testified at the trial that it was after breakfast and Uncle Morse had already left. (p226)

"Q. What did you go to doing when you came back into the kitchen?
A. I completed washing my dishes. Some of them was washed, and all of them wasn't, and I finished them and took them in the dining-room, and I got them completed, and Mrs. Borden was there.

Q. You will have to speak a little louder.
A. Mrs. Borden was in the dining-room as I was fixing my dining-room table, and she asked me if I had anything to do this morning. I said, No, not particular, if she had anything to do for me. She said she wanted the windows washed. I asked her how, and she said "inside and outside both, they are awful dirty."

Q. What was she doing when you had that talk with her in the dining-room?
A. She was dusting. She had a feather duster in her hand. She was dusting between the sitting-room and dining-room, the door."

Lizzie was not down downstairs for either of these times.