Lizzie Borden Society Forum

I am still searching my computer for the Gertrude Stevenson article of 1913. When I find it I will PDF it and post as a download in the Privy.

Meanwhile I found this collection I made in 2003, and thought it might be useful to you'all:

Kat
6437 posts Oct-31st-03 6:16 PM


37. "Re: Parricide"
In response to message #36


Lizzie did talk about Abby behind her back and to other people outside the house. That is disrespectful, you must agree. Lizzie made her disagreements with Abby clear.
A major point in the prosecution was that Lizzie left off calling Abby "Mother."
......
Witness Statements
13-14
"We then went to Mrs. Geo. Whitehead, on Fourth street. She said 'this property was owned in part by me and my mother. My mother wished to dispose of her interest. I could not purchase it, and did not want to sell; so in order that I might keep my place, Mrs. Borden, my step sister, bought the other interest. This the girls did not like; and they showed their feeling on the street by not recognizing me. Lizzie did not like Mrs. Borden.' "
.......
Inquest
Hiram Harrington
134+
Q. Do you know what the relations were between the daughters and the mother?
A. I did not go into the house; all I can tell is hear say, that is from them. The step mother never mentioned it in my presence.
Q. Did Lizzie?
A. Lizzie has, yes.
Q. What has Lizzie said about it?
A. I dont know as I could put anything together now to tell you, any more than to tell you there was some difficulty some way. She thought she equivocated. I dont know as I could put enough of it together now, I can just give you an idea. I cant remember words that were passed at the time, any more than just this much, that she thought she equivocated.
Q. About what, did she say?
A. In regard to something about Bertie, that is, Mrs. Whitehead, a half sister of Mrs. Borden. I think it was something about helping her, or that her father had bought the property. The general construction I have got of what she said, and from what little I learned, was that he had bought the property and gave it to his wife; and of course that meant giving it to her half sister.
Q. Did Lizzie speak about it to you more than once?
A. Sometimes it has been mentioned in a joking way, about the difficulties. I dont know as I could put enough together to say really what was passed.
Q. How long ago was the last time she said anything about it?
A. I think last Winter sometime. I have not seen her at the house for, I might say all Summer, and I have inquired of my wife how it was that Lizzie had not been down. Emma has always come. And the reply I would get from her was that Lizzie was into everything, that is, the works in the church, and her time was occupied; that is what I would get from her.
Q. When she spoke about it last Winter, what did she say about it?
A. I dont know as I could tell any more than to speak kind of sneeringly of Mrs. Borden. She always called her Mrs. Borden or Mrs. B. I dont know as I could remember anything to put together to make any sense.
Q. Did she speak in an unfriendly way of her?
A. Unfriendly, yes.
Q. You never heard Mrs. Borden say anything about it at all?
A. Never mention it. I have heard my wife say that Abby never mentioned it.
Q. But it was understood there was trouble in the family?
A. O, yes there has been I guess. For several years, I guess, of his early marriage with her, everything was very, very pleasant, uncommonly so for a step mother.
Q. This trouble is of recent years?
A. Quite a number of years, I should think. They were rather reticent about telling these affairs, although sometimes it would crop out.

..........
Inquest
Alice
150+
Q. I do not like to ask this question, but I feel obliged to. Did you see enough to notice what the relations were between Miss Lizzie and her mother?
A. In all my acquaintance, which is ten years sure, and most of that time has been, part of the time quite intimate, I never yet heard any wrangling in the family. I have got to answer the question, and I will say I dont think they were congenial.
Q. What gave you the impression they were not congenial?
A. Because their tastes differed in every way; one liked one thing, and the other liked another.
Q. Were they together very much?
A. I dont think they were very much.
Q. I suppose what you say about Lizzie is also true of Emma?
A. About the same; it was not always the same, but it would be hard work to tell.
Q. I judge by your saying they had a sitting room up stairs---
A. They sat up there a great deal.
Q. Their step mother did not sit up there with them?
A. I dont think so.
Q. Did you ever hear Lizzie speak of any trouble she had had with her mother?
A. Yes, I suppose I have. I have heard her say that Mrs. Borden thought so and so; the same as any family.
Q. Did she express to you ever that she regarded her mother as untruthful or deceitful?
A. I dont think she ever did.
Q. Did she ever allude particularly to any trouble she ever had with her mother?
A. No Sir.
Q. Did she ever tell you what the trouble was?
A. Nothing further than she was a step mother. The whole thing was as far as I could see, that an own mother might have had more influence over the father; it was the father more than the mother.
Q. What do you mean?
A. The father was the head of the house; they had to do as he thought. Mrs. Borden did not control the house; the whole summing up of it, was that.
Q. Were her relations with her father cordial?
A. So far as I know. I never saw anything different.
Q. Were they congenial?
A. I should not suppose they would be - knowing their different natures.
Q. The different nature of the father and mother and Lizzie?
A. Yes, each of them.


.....
Inquest
Hannah Gifford
158+
A. It was some remark I made about her mother's garment, what would be becoming for her. You know Mrs. Borden was very fleshy; I spoke to her of what I thought would be becoming to Mrs. Borden. She says "well she is a mean old thing". I says "O, you dont say that Lizzie?" She says "yes, and we dont have anything to do with her, only what we are obliged to", she says.
Q. She said that?
A. She said that, yes.
Q. Anything more?
A. Well, she says "we stay up stairs most of the time; we stay in our room most of the time." I says "you do, dont you go to your meals?" "Yes, we go to our meals, but we dont always eat with the family, with them; sometimes we wait until they are through", she says.
Q. Did she tell you why?
A. No. That is all she said. I did not say anything more. I was awfully surprised to hear her.
Q. You never heard Mrs. Borden say anything, I suppose?
A. No, I never heard any of them say anything against each other.
Q. Excepting that?
A. That is the only time I ever heard Lizzie either, and I was very much surprised.
Q. Did she seem to be joking about it, or speaking with some feeling?
A. No, she seemed to have a little feeling about it; that was all. There was no joking about it at all.
Q. That was this last Spring?
A. Yes, it was early in the Spring that I done their work.
.......
Inquest
Mrs. Tripp
143+
Q. What can you tell us about the relations between Lizzie and her mother, so far as you observed it, and heard it from Lizzie?
A. All I can tell you is that I dont think that they were agreeable to each other.
Q. What made you think so?
A. I have seen them together very little. What should make me think so, would be--- if I were there, why, they did not sit down, perhaps, and talk with each other as a mother and daughter might. They were very quiet.
Q. That is, they were together so little that you observed the fact?
A. No, I dont think I should, they were around in the same room together, the dining room.
Q. They associated together so little you noticed the fact they did not associate together?
A. I noticed it; not that they kept away from each other, not that at all, but that they did not enter into conversation, perhaps, with each other, perhaps.
Q. Was that so with Lizzie as well as Emma, or with one daughter more than the other?
A. I think Lizzie talked with her mother more than Emma.
Q. Emma had less to say to her?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. What else did you notice that led you to think that Lizzie and the mother did not get along well together, or were not agreeable to each other, as you expressed it?
A. I dont know of anything, I cant recollect anything.
Q. What you noticed was their manner towards each other?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. That is all, not from any words?
A. Their manner to each other was not that of those persons that are agreeable to each other, or it did not seem to be.
Q. When was it that you have seen them together?
A. I could not tell you surely; it is as much as five years since I have seen Mrs. Borden at all.
Q. So all this was based on what was quite a while ago?
A. O, yes sir.
Q. The officer reports that you told him that Lizzie told you at some time, that she thought her step mother was deceitful, one thing to her face and another behind her back.
A. Did he say I said Lizzie told me so?
Q. Yes.
A. I did not think I told him so. It seemed to me so; it seemed to me that she did not like one way appearing to her face, you know deceitful, she could not bear deceitfulness, and she could not bear one thing to her face, and find out another thing to her back; she could not bear deceitfulness.
Q. Was that what Lizzie told you?
A. I could not say she told me that, that was the idea I got from what--- well, I dont know as I could say from being there, or from being with Lizzie perhaps, for I have been there very little.
Q. You also told the officer that Lizzie told you that her step mother claimed not to have any influence with the father, but Lizzie thought she did have an influence with him.
A. Yes, I think Lizzie thought she did.
Q. Did Lizzie tell you that her step mother claimed not to have any influence with him?
A. I dont remember any such talk.
Q. With relation to giving some property to the step mother?
A. Lizzie, from what I have heard her say, but I could not tell you the words, Lizzie said, but I gathered from what I heard her say, it was a long time before I heard her say it, that she thought her mother must have had an influence over her father, or he would not have made a present to her half sister. It was a long time ago, not expecting this to come up, I could not swear to one word Lizzie said.
Q. This was all prior to the last visit, nothing was said about this at the last visit?
A. No Sir.
Q. Did Lizzie say to you she did not know that either Emma or she would get anything in the event of her father’s death?
A. I did not hear her say so.
Q. Who told you she said so?
A. I think my invalid sister told me so.
Q. What is her name?
A. Miss Carrie M. Poole, she is very feeble, she lives on Madison street New Bedford, she is very feeble indeed.
Q. You never heard Lizzie say that?
A. No Sir, I never heard Lizzie say that.
Q. The officer says you said explicitly, Mrs. Tripp, that Lizzie told you that she thought her step mother was deceitful, one thing to her face, and another thing behind her back, not in so many words, but that was the substance of what she said.
A. I dont remember of her saying that.
Q. Do you remember of telling that to the officer?
A. I remember very well talking to him that I thought Lizzie thought her mother was deceitful, one thing to her face, and another to her back. I could not say Lizzie told me that, I cant say so. I was taken very much by surprise at seeing Officer Medley come in, and I tried to tell; but those things were years back, and thinking they never would come up, I cant recollect word for word things that occurred years ago. I cant say that Lizzie told me she thought so; but it would be from little things I might have heard her say that would cause me to think she could not bear deceitfulness, being such an honorable person as she was, square person.
Q. Did she appear to be fond of her step mother in her talk with you?
A. No, I dont think she was fond of her.
Q. Did she appear to be unfriendly towards her?
A. No Sir.

Q. The officer says you said explicitly, Mrs. Tripp, that Lizzie told you that she thought her step mother was deceitful, one thing to her face, and another thing behind her back, not in so many words, but that was the substance of what she said.

Sounds like hes basing his case on deceit which is really no motive for murder.

Here is the "Sanity Survey" that describes others views of the Morse family, from a previous post of mine:

Commonwealth of Massachusetts VS. Lizzie A. Borden; The Knowlton Papers, 1892-1893. Eds. Michael Martins and Dennis A. Binette. Fall River, MA: Fall River Historical Society, 1994.

Pages 102-6

#HK102
Report, handwritten in ink.

November 24, 1892

H. A. Knowlton
District Atty.
New Bedford, Mass.

Sir,
I have interviewed the following named persons in reference to the rel-
atives of Lizzie Borden who said as follows:

Capt. James C. Stafford North St. New Bedford.
I use to know quite well the mother of Lizzie Borden, her name was
Sarah Morse. She had a sister and brothers. john now in Fall River,
another brother who is a Blacksmith and is now out West. Mrs. Morse the
mother of Lizzie Bordon was a very peculiar woman. She had a Very bad
temper. She was very strong in her likes and dislikes. I never knew or
heard of any of the Morses or Bordons was ever Insane or anything like it.
I use to live in Fall River and always knew the Bordens and the Morses.
Mrs Gray who lives on this St. may tell you something aboute them, also a
Mrs Almy who lives on Franklin St, Fall River.

Mrs. - Holland Daughter of Mrs. Gray Resides on North St. New Bedford.
Same house with Mrs. Gray. I never heard my mother say that Lizzie
Bordon her mother or any of the Morses is or ever was Insane or anything
like it. I always have heard that they were somewhat peculiar and odd. I
have heard my mother talk considerable about Bordens and the Morses
but never heard her say that any of them were Insane.

Abraham G. Hart Cashier Savings bank Fall River. I have live here most
all my life. I never knew much aboute Lizzie Borden or her mother. I
never knew much about the brothers of Lizzie Bordens mother. Always
known of them. I never heard that any of the Morses or Bordens was ever
Insane.

S. H. Miller 93 Second St. Fall River opp. the Bordon House. I have lived
in Fall River 64 years. Bordon use to work for me. I know the Bordons
and all of the Morses. the father of Lizzies mother was Anthony Morse. I
use to know his two brothers. Know the brothers of Mrs. Morse, Lizzies
mother. One is now supposed to be out West. I never knew or never
heard that any of the Morses is or was Insane. Know they were somewhat
peculiar. Anthony Morse had two brothers George and Gardiner Morse.
I was not a witness at the trial. I did not intend to be. I saw Mr. Borden a
little while before the murder. Bridget, the Servant girl came running
into my house and said both was dead just then a man was passing I
called him and told Bridget to tell him what she told me. She did and
that man was a witness. I did not want anything to do with it and I did not
go near the house.

Rescom Case 199 Second St. Fall River. I have lived in Fall River 57 years
and I know all the Bordens and the Morses well. A sister of Mrs. Morse
(Lizzies mother, married his cousin, a man named Morse, they now live
here in Fall River. I use to know Anthony, father of Lizzies mother. He
has a brother now living in Warren Mass. the woman that was murdered
use to visit my house often, but she use to keep her affairs to herself pretty
well, but I assure you I have my opinion of Lizzie Borden and I hope they
will get more evidence. My wife dont know any more than I do aboute
the Bordons or Morses. We never heard that anyone of them is or ever
was Insane but I think some of them worse than Insane.

Nov. 26.
John S. Brayton Fall River. I have lived here great meny years. I know the
Morses Mother of Lizzie Borden was Sarah, her father was Anthony
Morse. I think her sister is dead. Anthony Morse was a farmer, after he
owned a milk route. I never heard of anyone of them as being Insane or
having any streak of Insanity.

D. S. Brigam Ex. City Marshal of Fall River I use to know the Morses
never heard of any of them as being Insane, but this girl Lizzie Borden is
known by a number of people here to be a woman of a bad disposition if
they tell what they know.

Geo. A. Patty, Fall River I did not know much aboute the history of the
Morses but never heard that any of them is or was ever Insane but Lizzie is
known to be ugly.

Mrs. Geo. W. Whitehead 45 4th St. Fall River Sister of Mrs. Borden who
was murdered never heard that any of the Morses was Insane but ugly.
Since the murder people have said if she is guilty she must be Insane.

Mrs. William Almy Franklin St. Fall River Always known the Bordens
and the Morses, but for several years I have not known much aboute any
of them. Some 30 years ago my husband who is now dead was in compa-
ny with Mr Bordon. I use to know the brother of Mrs. Morse (Lizzies
Mother) also her sister. I think their was 4 brothers. I have never heard
that their was ever any Insanity or anything like it among any of the
Morses.

Chester W. Green 80 years old lives in Fall River and have for 40 years. I
know the Bordens and the Morses but I dont know much aboute. Never
heard as any of them was ever Insane or anything like it.

William Carr lived in Fall River for 40 years I know the Bordons better
then I know the Morses. The Bordons are peculiar people but I never
heard that any of the Bordons or the Morses is or was ever Insane.
Respectfully,

Moulton Batchelder .
Dist. Police

Also:
The grand jury was called from Nov. 7th to the 21st.
This *Survey* was submitted Nov. 24th, 1892.
The grand jury was reconvened Dec. 1st, for Alice Russell's input and I think to decide against Henry Trickey as well.

Lizzie was indicted December 2, 1892.