Lizzie Borden Society Forum

As with all polls you may comment (or not).

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I think she went up to hide evidence, but gave the reason she was looking for metal to make sinkers.
I have always felt that Lizzie wasn't very forth coming with information, almost like she was trying to hide something.

I voted "Never left the house," in spite of the ice-cream man's testimony.
Here's the deal: If she were bloodied, why risk exposure getting to the barn?
If she were going to saw off a hatchet handle, best to do it inside, or else she would have had to conceal the hatchet, somehow, on the way out to the barn, and possibly back. Also, what if someone had "surprised" her while she was sawing/breaking a bloody hatchet handle in the barn? Or, taking a "blood bath"? Mrs. Churchill: "Lizzie, you got some splainin' to do."
Furthermore, I think Lizzie did her stashing in the cellar and/or in a hideyhole in the upstairs clothes press (behind a loose board in the wall or ceiling-- I believe that's where she had the dress that she burned stashed; because she had a key to the clothes press, she could control, to a degree, the searching of the space).
Plus, Lizzie was operating on limited time. A trip to the barn would have risked exposure, and eaten away at her "clear the evidence" time.
She didn't direct the detectives to the cellar, as she did when the house was robbed the year before.
Nor did she leave the cellar door ajar (I certainly would have), to have provided the theoretical murderer with another means of entry/escape. The cellar would have been a logical hiding place for the theoretical murderer, too. I would have set up the cellar, big-time, as the in/out/"holding area" for the murderer.
However, I believe Lizzie concealed evidence in the cellar, and therefore did not wish to direct attention to it.

If Lizzie went to the barn for her stated reason, she never mentioned washing her hands to anyone after having examined dusty boxes full of various metal objects with fingers likely sticky with pear juice.
There was no inherent advantage to hiding anything in the barn that would be just as well concealed in the house. The idea promoted was an intruder, so the police would not likely suspect Lizzie, nor would they search the house thoroughly for a murder weapon or bloody dress.
Leaving the house to be out of the way of an accomplice risks having a conversation with a neighbor at an inopportune time or calling a neighbor's attention to the premises while an accomplice is trying to escape undetected.
If Lizzie was innocent and went to the yard only, why would she say she had gone to the barn? If she was guilty, she would have been better served by being seen standing around the yard by someone, so why not say she went to the yard in the hope that someone saw her there?
I don't think she ever left the house, and I don't buy the barn story. Nothing was said about washing up, it would have raised suspicions about what was being washed off, pear juice and dirt or blood. Nobody noticed any dirt or dust on Lizzie from the barn.

I haven't voted yet. (What else is new?)

But I agree about the cellar being a good place to hide something, and keeping it within the immediate confines of the house would be important, I think.

In this case, tho, the cellar was pointed out somewhat obliquely tho by Lizzie... the Friday morning visit to get the axes and hatchets from the cellar by Edsoon occasioned this exchange overheard:

Witness Statements
Edson Aug. 5th
[After having been to the Borden cellar that 6:00 am, he returned]
pg 35-36

About 7.15 A. M. I returned to the Borden house, went into the house with Officer Doherty. Bridget Sullivan and J. V. Morse were in the kitchen. I also inquired of Morse about his relatives in New Bedford and vicinity. I also inquired about Mrs. Borden’s relatives. Morse called Miss Emma, and she answered the questions. While I was talking to Miss Emma, Miss Lizzie came in. She said “Bridget, are you sure the back cellar door was fastened?” Bridget said “Yes marm.”

* * * * *

Then there is Morse all day Thursday trying to throw suspicion on the cellar door. He locked people into the barn, I think on Friday, so I doubt there was any evidence left in there that he might know of.

Kat,
The timing of the statement is interesting: the day after.
Lizzie went down cellar the night after the murders (night of Aug. 4th/5th), if memory serves, so she had an opportunity then to "fiddle around," so to speak.
The contrast between Lizzie's "cellar tour" for detectives post-robbery vis a vis her being mum about the cellar the day of the murders just seems striking to me. Why would a thief enter/exit there, but not a murderer? Again, that really makes it seem as if she had something to hide down there, something she should take care of the night of the 4th/5th.
(Yes, "Bathroom" Morse [aka Uncle Privy] does seem much more on the ball about building up the cellar as entry/exit, but he was most probably unaware if Lizzie did some stashin' down there.)

I think she went out in the yard to toss the hatchet up on the neighbors' roof, and she realized she'd been seen by Lubinsky. Therefore, she had to come up with a reason to be out of the house. I don't think she was bloody after killing Andrew because she'd tied the arms of the coat around her neck and made the Prince Albert serve as an apron.

Well then, can you imagine if Morse was at cross purposes with Lizzie over calling attention to that cellar?!! That's enough to drive Lizzie to morphine! (After her dual visits down there Thursday night, as you pointed out DJ.)

Even Sawyer, who was left to guard the side door and rear hall, thought there might still be an intruder down cellar, and he checked the door to be locked into the house!

I'm leaning toward she went to the yard only and went precisely to be seen. Unfortunately for her Lubinsky was the only one who seen a woman in the yard and his testimony is confused at best. But it was enough to at least lend some credibility to Lizzie's claim.

Patrick McGowan was able to step on the fence between Crowe's yard and the Borden yard and reach up and pick pears. This would indicate that some over hanging branches may have precluded any tossing of a hatchet onto Crowe's shed roof.

If it could be done would not the noise of a metal hatchet head landing on the roof attract some attention from the men working in the yard or maybe even in the shed itself? Perhaps the noise of their work would drown out the landing.

It would be nice to know the distance from where the hatchet was found to the spot where a person could have thrown it from. Did Lizzie have the arm strength to do it? Mmmmmm...

I'm with you, Harry. The more I mull over the idea that a woman was "seen" coming around the corner of the house, the more I believe thats why Lizzie did go out of the house. Perhaps the scenario could have happened like this, given the time constraints of Andrew's murder:

Lizzie kills Andrew and then goes down cellar to clean up and hide the hatchet. Goes out the cellar door to the yard, that maybe she was supposed to leave unlocked behind her, but, due to the habit of the house of locked doors; she locks it behind herself. No pesky neighbors at Mrs. Churchill's house would see her leave the house and know around what time she went out. Perhaps then she did make a quick stop under the pear tree, maybe ventured into the barn itself? Then Lizzie went back to the side door trying to take her time, perhaps make more noise than normal to be noticed. Going in the screen door she lets it slam thinking that Bridget would hear it. But, Bridget may have been in a light doze and not have noticed the sound.

I'm just thinking out loud here, but, given Lizzie's way of telling her story, she mentions certain things for a reason. The barn does take her out of the way of the murderer and the murder. But, with Mrs. Churchill's house so close by to the side door, with windows possibly open for air, could Lizzie take a chance at just lying about going out of the house? I think Lizzie made the trip out of the house for a reason.

Maybe Lizzie was counting on Mrs. Churchill herself to see Lizzie, she had spotted Andrew at the side of the house earlier and Bridget washing one window. Mrs. Churchill could have been the nosy neighbor, the Gladys Kravitz of the neighborhood. Maybe she would have even stopped Lizzie to say hello if she saw her, giving more credence to Lizzie's alibi.

Well, there are two cellar doors to go thru to get outside - and I know the inner one locks on the inside but don't know about the outer one. This is just in response to the idea that maybe Lizzie locked it (them?) when she went out, if she went out. Wouldn't she have to unlock the screen door before she went out thru the cellar in order to come in that way later?

Hi Kat, I know, not a very well thought out plan. But, thats me thinking out loud. I don't recall who it was, but, in the past someone had posted a link to a video of the Borden cellar. In it, the tour guide showed the original inner cellar door with the sliding bolt on it to lock it. I also seem to recall there being some sort of keyhole beneath that. I imagine with Andrew's penchant for locks, there must have been some other way to secure one of those cellar doors. I looked on the photo of the outer cellar door, there doesn't appear to be any keyhole on the exterior. So, the outer door may have just been bolted to lock it?



We have Bridget's preliminary testimony about her business with locking one of the cellars doors, but, not which one. She states that Andrew took care of locking the door himself after taking in the clothesline. To me that means there must have been some other way of locking that door if Bridget using that bolt wasn't enough.

Bridget, preliminary vol. 1, page 6:

Q. Did you use the outside door?
A. No Sir.
Q. Did you ever use that outside door?
A. No Sir, not except when I would wash.
Q. When did you wash?
A. I washed Monday and hung them out the Tuesday.
Q. Did you then use the back door?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. Was it open then? I mean the cellar back door, did you use it the day you washed?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. And the day you hung the clothes out?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. Both the same day?
A. I only used it the day I hung them out. I had no business going out the day I washed them, for I did
not hang them out.
Q. You used the cellar door that goes into the yard the day you hung the clothes out?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. Who opened that door?
A. Myself. I shut it when I got through.
Q. Did you fasten it?
A. Yes Sir, with a bolt inside.
Q. Did you unbolt it again during that week?
A. No Sir.
Q. Did you take any notice whether it was unbolted or not?
A. No Sir.
Q. Did you try to use it?
A. No Sir.
Q. Did you know of anybodies going in or out of that back door any time that week?
A. No Sir.
Q. Did you notice it after the murder was committed?
A. No Sir.
Q. You did not take any notice of it then?
A. No Sir.
Q. Do you know whether Mr. Borden had anything to do about seeing that the back door was shut up?
A. Yes Sir. He always seen a Monday, or whatever day the clothes would be taken in, that it was
locked; for he always took in the clothes line himself.
Q. And saw that the door was locked?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. Did he do that on Tuesday?
A. I suppose he did. He always came through to see if it was open.
Q. Did you see him do it on Tuesday?
A. No Sir I did not.
Page 17
Q. You did shut up the door yourself on Tuesday, and locked it by a bolt inside?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. Anythingelse besides a bolt?
A. No Sir.
Q. What room did that let into?
A. Into the washroom.

As for the screen door, I guess Lizzie could have stepped to the side door and popped the hook before going down to the cellar.

Thanks for the testimony.
I was of the impression that, as the testimony shows, Andrew brought in the clothes line and locked the door as his habit. That doesn't seem to preclude Bridget's locking of it earlier.

I don't know why Lizzie would unhook the screen and then go out thru the cellar. It's not impossible tho. I thought that testimony about whether that screen was locked or unlocked after Bridget used it might be useful? I don't have it handy.

I really don't think she left the house. She would have been dirty, dusty, or even had cobwebs in her hair if she went out there. I'm just guessing at this I have no backup, it's just my opinion.

That's what I've always thought also Nadzieja. It was hot and dusty up there, and according to Lizzie she came in and saw her father and immediately ran to get Bridget. Then spent the remainder of the time at the back door until the rest of the cast of characters arrived. She allows herself no time to wash up. Nor does she state that she washed up at any time during questioning. She was asked repeatedly to tell all she did that day. Yet she is without an ounce of dust on her. There is a remark in testimony about how clean her hands looked. I will have to look for it.

I'm thinking it would have looked awfully suspicious if she said she went out to the yard without going to the barn. At least there was a supposed purpose for going to the barn. Going only as far as the yard almost guarantees a conviction as an accomplice under the circumstances.

Kat @ Fri Jun 05, 2009 6:02 pm wrote:Thanks for the testimony.
I was of the impression that, as the testimony shows, Andrew brought in the clothes line and locked the door as his habit. That doesn't seem to preclude Bridget's locking of it earlier.

I don't know why Lizzie would unhook the screen and then go out thru the cellar. It's not impossible tho. I thought that testimony about whether that screen was locked or unlocked after Bridget used it might be useful? I don't have it handy.

You're welcome, Kat. I was paying attention to what Bridget was saying, what she did was "bolt' the door, for Andrew she says "lock". I'm getting that when Bridget was done taking in the clothes, she bolted the door shut. Then Andrew would go out and get the clothesline and bring it in and then lock the door with a key until next wash day was coming. I know, it sounds like a production number. But, perhaps that was his piece of mind, knowing that the house was secure from all doors?

From Bridget's preliminary page 18:

Q. You went in through the screen door, and shut it up and hooked it when you came in?
A. Yes Sir.

This is the exchange after Bridget talks about being outdoors washing the windows and comes in to do the insides of them. So, I imagine that the screen door was hooked up until the point that Lizzie alledgedly unhooked it to go out to the barn or unhooked it for my little scenario. Like I said before, I think that Lizzie wanted to be seen coming in from her "barn trip" but not going out. Mrs. Churchill or her housemates could pinpoint the time that Lizzie left the house which I don't think she wanted. Too bad that Bridget didn't just sit in her window overlooking the backyard to catch a breeze when she went up to her room. She could probably observe if Lizzie actually went back there at all that day.

I don't think she ever left the house. There was no physical evidence that she was ever in the barn; she was not dirty, dusty, or sweaty after spending 15 to 20 minutes in a hot hayloft. She couldn't even give a consistent reason for being in the barn.

I don't think she would have necessarily gotten dirty by going into the barn. She would have merely walked in, walked up the steps, fiddled around looking for something in a box and then stood by a window. The only thing that might have gotten a tad dusty was the bottom of her skirt if it was long enough to touch the floor. And she could have easily washed her hands when she was through. It's not like she was moving furniture, rolling around on the floor or cleaning anything.

Sorry, edited a double post. Somehow my browser froze and it posted the same messege twice.

Not only would her clothing have gotten dusty, but if she was in that loft for as long as she claimed, then she would've become sweaty as well. Maybe enough to dampen the bangs on her hair a bit, or to have caused some unsightly stains to appear? She was wearing victorian undergarments and a long dress in heat that everyone who testified, including Lizzie, said was "hot and close". 15-20 minutes is a long time to be fiddling around in heat like that. Anyone who has spent time in a barn loft during a hot day would appreciate that.

If the dust was as thick as it was reported, then brushing against things would've caused transfer, and not only to the bottom of her skirt. Not to mention the cobwebs. Walking through the dust on the floor would've left some noticeable trace that she had been there. She also didn't testify to having washed up at all, hands or otherwise, during her inquest. She was asked repeatedly to tell everything she did. Yet, she does not claim to have cleaned up. Lizzie at first made a claim that she went to the barn looking for iron to fix her screen. Eventually her story changed to having gone to get lead to make a sinker. There was window screening located in the loft. There were bits of lead as well. She didn't accomplish anything by going to look in the loft, yet all the materials were available for her to have done so. And 20 minutes is a pretty exaggerated amount of time to be looking for something upstairs in the barn, and not find it when it was there. Try looking around a room the size of the barn loft, with a sizable bit of it taken up by a hay pile, for 20 minutes and see what you notice about that room as the time ticks by. Even if you stand and stare out the window for the better part of 10 minutes and eat a pear, you are going to be able to search a heck of a lot of that room in 10 minutes. Lizzie stood up there and not only did not get dusty, sweaty, or soiled in any way, but she didn't find any of the materials that were readily available in 20 minutes.

Trial testimony of Frederick Fleet page 482:

Q. What was the temperature in that loft?
A. Very hot and close.

MR. ROBINSON. Are you going to give it exactly?

MR. MOODY. No, but whether hot or cold.

Q. Did you go into the barn again in the day?
A. I did.

Q. What time the second time in the day?
A. It might be half past one or two.

Q. Did others go with you at the time?
A. Yes, sir.

Q. What did you find the conditions of things there then? Describe everything you saw.
A. Well we saw downstairs---

Q. I don't care about downstairs, but up, Mr. Fleet.
A. Upstairs we found a lot of old boards and rubbish, and considerable hay. The hay covered nearly the north part of the barn, the north side of the barn?

Q. How was the temperature in the barn in the afternoon? How was it up there in the afternoon?
A. Very hot.


Trial testimony of Philip Harrington page 570:

Q. What was the temperature in that loft of the barn?
A. As to degrees, I cannot say, but it was extremely hot.

Q. Did you notice anything as to dust at that time?
A. Yes, sir, it was very dusty, very uninviting, the floor, bench and hay, and old fashioned fireplace which stood in the north-west corner of the barn, and some window screening and binding cords --- things that were covered in dust.

Q. Did you notice with reference to the window, whether any covering on the inside or outside?
A. I think on the west window a curtain, but about that I am not positive.

Q. How were the windows, opened or closed?
A. They were closed when we went in, covered with cobwebs, and I should say, if there was a curtain on this window, about which I am not positive, it was rolled up, because I recall distinctly seeing the bottom of the window.

Q. You say the windows were covered with cobwebs and clothes?
A. Yes, sir.

Q. Now, can you give any description of the atmosphere, except that it was very hot.
A. Not until the pitching of the hay around, I noticed then it contained considerable dust,

page 571

very disagreeable breathing there.

Q. As you began to pitch the hay around?
A. Yes, sir.

Q. In addition to the heat I will ask you the direct question,-- Was it what was called close?
A. Yes, sir, suffocating you might say.

Q. Was it before or after you began to pitch the hay that it was suffocating?
A. Yes, I noticed that it was so before we touched anything.

Trial testimony of Patrick Doherty page 600:

Q. Now you made some search in the barn that afternoon, did you?
A. Yes, sir.

Q. I will ask you what the temperature was up in that loft in the barn?
A. It was very warm.

Q. How was the air for breathing?
A. Very bad. It was stifling hot there: very bad.

Q. Did you notice anything about whether the barn was dusty or otherwise?
A. I could't say.

Trial testimony of William H. Medley page 691:

Q. After you went into the barn what did you do? Describe in detail.
A. I went upstairs until I reached about three or four steps from the top, and while there part of my body was above the floor, above the level of the floor, and I looked around the barn to see if there was any evidence of anything having been disturbed, and I stooped down low to see if I could discern any marks on the floor of the barn having been made there. I did that by stooping down and looking across the bottom of the barn floor. I didn't see any, and I reached out my hand to see if I could make an impression on the floor of the barn, and I did by putting my hand down so fashion (illustrating), and I found that I made an impression on the floor.

Q. Describe what there was on or about the floor by which you made an impression.
A. Seemed to be accumulated hay dust or other dust.

Q. How distinctly could you see the marks which you made with

page 692

your hand?
A. I could see them quite distinctly when I looked for them

Q. Go on and describe anything else which you did?
A. Then I stepped up on the top and took four or five steps on the outer edge of the barn floor, the edge nearest the stairs, they came up to see if I could discern those, and I did.

Q. How did you look to see if you could discern those footsteps which you had made?
A. I did it in the first place by stooping down and casting my eye on a level with the barn floor, and could see them plainly.

Q. Did you see any other footsteps in that dust than those which you made yourself?
A. No, sir.

Q.After you had made that examination what did you do?
A. I came downstairs and searched a pile of lumber and other stuff there was in the yard, looking for anything that we could find, and after awhile I met Mr. Fleet.

Q. Wait a minute now. Did you notice what the temperature was in the loft of the barn as you went up there?
A. Well, I know it was hot, that is all, very hot. You know it was a hot day.

Q. Did you notice whether the windows or the hay door were opened or closed?
A. They were closed, at that time.

Trial testimony of Rufus B. Hilliard page 1111-1112:

Q. Upon the premises of Second Street, when you went there in the afternoon, what did you do? I don't ask you in detail, but tell us generally what you did then?
A. I looked at the yard, around the yard, and around the pile of lumber that is on the east end of the yard, and also searched the barn.

Q. Do you recall how the doors of the barn were and the windows of the barn in the loft when you were there?
A. Yes, sir;

page 1112

the side door as you enter from the yard to the barn was open, the door in the loft was closed, the window at the west end--I am not positive whether that was open or shut.

Q. The other window, do you recall that -- the window at the east end?
A. That I think was shut.

Q. What sort of a day was it with reference to heat on the 4th of August last?
A. Very hot.

Q. How was the heat in this loft?
A. Well, it was extremely warm there, almost suffocating-- the heat in the loft.

-------------------------

page 1121:

Q. ( By Mr. Moody) Of whom did you request those?
A. Mrs. Holmes ask me if I wanted them. I told her if she pleased I would take them. And I took away a piece of moulding from the mop board in the room where Mrs. Borden was found; I also took away a piece of plastering, taken from the wall, the north wall; I also took away a marble slab from the dressing case; I also took away a piece of doorjamb between the sitting room and the dining room; I took away from the barn a basket from the loft, containing lead; I also took away a box containing lead from what I termed to be the carriage house in the barn.

------------------

page 1122:

Q. You know the basket and box that have been in the courthouse during this trial?
A. Yes, sir.

Q. The basket, you say, was found in the loft?
A. Yes, sir.

Q. Whereabouts in the loft?
A. It sat on top of some boards that lay on top of the bench, wooden bench that was on the south side of the barn.

Q. How was the barn on the Thursday afternoon in this loft, in the upper part, with respect to dust?
A. Well, there was considerable dust there?

Trial testimony of Mrs. Phebe B.M. Bowen page 1585 - 1586:

Q. Did you notice anything unusual about the appearance of her hands and face in respect to anything upon them?
A. Nothing upon them, but I noticed how very white they were, her hands especially, as they laid againt her dark dress, in her lap.

Q. What kind of dress?
A. A dark dress.

Q. Can you describe the dress anymore fully than that-- a dark dress?
A. It had a blouse waist, with a white design on it.

page 1586

Q. Had you ever seen the dress before?
A. I noticed nothing unusual about her dress.

Q. Whether or not that looks anything the waist she had on that morning? (Showing waist)
A. I should say it was.

------------------------

page 1586:

Q. You noticed her hands, you say?
A. Yes, sir.

Q. They looked white?
A. They did.

Q. Did you notice that they were clean?
A. Yes.

Q. Clean and white?
A. Clean and white.

Q. The whole of her hands?
A. Yes,sir.

Q. Nothing on them at all?
A. No, sir.

Q. Did they present to you the appearance of having been out in a

1587

dusty barn?
A. I did not notice anything upon them?

August on the Southcoast is always sticky, sweaty weather, even if you are doing nothing. As they say in these parts, "It ain't the heat; it's the humidity."

Unless Lizzie had A/C, that's normal.

I believe Lizzie knew someone was coming to see Andrew, and she knew who. I personally do not believe she anticipated murder, but I believe she chose to keep her mouth shut forever. Loyalty was valued over honesty and legality in certain circles. What goes on in the family, stays in the family...

Teaser:
I actually have a new suspect whose name has never been brought up (to my knowledge).

If it was that dirty and dusty, then she couldn't have been upstairs in the barn. Maybe she went to the barn for an alibi, but didn't go upstairs to the loft. She could have ade that up to cover herself. She could have lied about not washing up too.

The whole story in the inquest about going to the barn seems to have been made up as she went.

The lack of footprints on the dusty floor is evidence against it, unless the barn received a new layer of dust later.

Another possibility could be that Lizzie was lighter on her feet than officer Medley and thus left no footprints behind in the loft of the Barn.

I think she would have left her imprint on the barn and the barn would have left its imprint on her. Whether that was especially looked for is hard for me to determine.