Lizzie Borden Society Forum

With the 40th aniversary of the moon landing, I got to thinking. With the moon landing on the TV (I was a little kid when it was on), I wonder if Lizzie would have been interested and watched it, and what she would have thought.

While we're at it, here are some more questions to spend some time wondering about: Did Lizzie like her own feet? Did the Bordens eat mayonnaise? When Lizzie was in Italy, did she try pizza? Did Uncle John have excess nose hair?

I mean, if you're going there, Snok, go all the way! :)

If that's the way you all think of the question, then the hell with this site. I'll be seeing you all. See you, not. Bye.

Snokkums, stick around. No one person speaks for us all.

But frankly, yes, that's exactly what I think of the question. "Did Lizzie like to polish pearls by hand, or by shaking them in a bag of uncooked rice?"

These are relevant questions? Maybe you should simply have your own section of the board, called "Fanciful Borden queries to which we'll never know the answers."

I'm not calling for your head, snok, but I can't be the only person who doesn't see the point of most of your questions. Don't leave the site; I'll just make it a point not to read your threads anymore.

Sorry I did not answer sooner, Snokkums. I was considering your question more thoroughly.
My thoughts were going in the direction of what advances were made in science and transportation in Lizzie's lifetime, and what inventions she might have thought were wonderful~ I bet motion pictures and airplanes!

There would have been some looking-up for me to do, but I was on my old laptop.

Actually, Bob G., you started one of the most viewed topics here called "The Borden Case In Popular Culture" so the Moon Landing & Lizzie's interest in it as popular culture now-a-days might fit right in!

And Snokkums has started probably more topics here than any single member! Personally I enjoy her questions and she allows us to drift off-topic, going who-knows-where- even to the moon...

Kat @ Fri Jul 24, 2009 6:04 pm wrote:... And Snokkums has started probably more topics here than any single member! Personally I enjoy her questions and she allows us to drift off-topic, going who-knows-where- even to the moon...

I agree, Kat; many of Robin's topics turn into very interesting discussions.

Robin, please don't leave because of one person's opinion. I may not join in the discussions of your topics, but I do read and enjoy every one of them.

From what little we know about what Lizzie thought of things.....and that is not much. I believe Lizzie would have been as bored as I am about the space program. With so many problems here on earth, and so many other endeavors still to be conquered, I think she would shut off the TV and go to the theater.

Then again, she may have been appalled by the waste of money spent by her government. Rich spoiled brats floating in space sitting on 1246.00 dollar toilet seats.

But, than again...... it has given us Tang and comfy mattresses.

Hmm.....lets see: space program = 459,098,987,000 dollars / comfy mattress = 486 dollars and 92 cents.

But, most of all, I don't think she would believe it.

Man on the moon. Prove it. Place a billboard for GEICO or something we can see from earth.

Landed on the Moon??????? Even a caveman would believe it.

Nope, I think I speak for Lizzie when I say she would neither care or believe it.

Don't leave Snokkums, I thought it was a good topic especially since we were having the 40 year anniversary of the moon landing. H. G. Wells wrote a book called First Men in the Moon. It was published in 1901. We have no way of knowing if Lizzie was interested in it, but society at that time seemed to be. I think people of Lizzie's time were inspired by the advancements of the industrial age and began to imagine how we could actually find a way to go to the moon. It's interesting how drawings of spaceships from that time have similarities to how our modern rockets look.

Hey Snokkums, you can't leave. This is my first post and I think it's in the Rules that the starter of a thread must greet the newbie or I'll have bad luck or um, something - yeah that's it.

Hey, KAE-- and, Snokkums, you never know what thoughts you may shake out of the (pear) tree. Some seemingly innocuous posts here fire my synapses into a fury.
I had a good friend (now deceased) in Tampa who said that she and one of her pals went out to see (Disney's re-release) of "Peter Pan" the night of the first moon landing, and it was a perfect time to be out and about, as everyone else was "in." They were far from being wrought up in the space program.
The night that Skylab was falling (who knew where?) and Hurricane Bob (thankfully, nothing like Katrina) was hitting New Orleans, I went out to the Blue Room at the Fairmont Hotel (in NOLA) to see illusionist Jim Bailey. There were less than ten people in the audience, and JB put on one heck of a show! I see where he made a big hit in London this June, which makes me feel less old.
Now, what does this have to do with LAB? Oh, I know she would have LOVED that show!

Bob Gutowski @ Fri Jul 24, 2009 12:13 pm wrote:But frankly, yes, that's exactly what I think of the question. "Did Lizzie like to polish pearls by hand, or by shaking them in a bag of uncooked rice?"

These are relevant questions? Maybe you should simply have your own section of the board, called "Fanciful Borden queries to which we'll never know the answers."

I'm not calling for your head, snok, but I can't be the only person who doesn't see the point of most of your questions. Don't leave the site; I'll just make it a point not to read your threads anymore.

People don't won't me to leave this site, but after this statement from you, I can't see why I would stay appparently, what I have say and ask isn't deemed impretant.

KAE @ Sat Jul 25, 2009 5:24 am wrote:Hey Snokkums, you can't leave. This is my first post and I think it's in the Rules that the starter of a thread must greet the newbie or I'll have bad luck or um, something - yeah that's it.

Nice first post, KAE! Hello!

Hey Snokkums, you are always a good sport~ what do you say-maybe stay?

snokkums @ Wed Jul 22, 2009 3:29 am wrote:With the 40th aniversary of the moon landing, I got to thinking. With the moon landing on the TV (I was a little kid when it was on), I wonder if Lizzie would have been interested and watched it, and what she would have thought.

Good question Snokkums. I firmly believe Lizzie would have enjoyed the moon landing especially if it had happened in her day. Everyone was glued to their sets in '69. It was a major event in the history of man and vastly over-shadow's all the space travels since, in my view. I saw the whole space program develop from the Mercury through the Gemini and to the end of the Apollo. I've probably read a dozen books on the space program. Yes, I believe Lizzie would have enjoyed seeing man land on the moon.

-1bigsteve (o:

Hello and thank you Kat.
I tried. I really would like her to stay.
I'm very new to all this and have a lot to learn. I need all the help and advice I can get!

If I remember correctly, Lizzie visited the Chicago World Fair some time after the murders. This might indicate an interest in advancements in technology. Lizzie owned an automobile while she lived at Maplecroft, so she didn't avoid change with respect to transportation. I think she would have enjoyed the moon landing, as would most people of that era. Lizzie's lifetime spanned some of the most dynamic technological changes we've seen, and I think she would have at least been curious about innovations.

Snok, sometimes in that bowl of cherries one still contains a pit. What do you do? Spit it out and keep enjoying cherries or give them up completely? I hope you like cherries enough to not let one pit put you off of them, aina?

I am late in posting to this topic but i tend to agree whole heartedly with Yooper. Lizzie was one of the 1st in Fall River to have an automobile and also a telephone. She did go to the World's Fair. All indicators that new technologies not only fascinated Lizzie but that she also incorporated them into her life. So yes I think she would have loved watching the landing on the moon and probably would be using that telephone of hers to book a seat on the first available flight to the moon for civilians.
Welcome to the forum KAE. I think you will learn much from the many Borden scholars we have here as well as experience the different opinions we all have on the case as you have allready seen.
On a personal note to Snokkums, I love the threads you have posted over time. At first glance and face value they sometimes seem shocking to say the least but every time, and I do mean every time, you have managed to get us thinking "what would Lizzie do?". You have a knack for taking Lizzie (a product of the Victorian Era) and putting her in the 21st century which is actualy an awesome thing to do because it helps us search what little is known about Lizzie's life and apply it to situations that we are more familiar with and that definitely helps us see a more flesh and blood Lizzie that we can relate to as a person rather then a story. With that said.......I humbly beg you to stay and continue to inspire us in only a way that you can Snokk.

Kat @ Sun Jul 26, 2009 8:33 pm wrote:I knew you would pop in here on this topic BigSteve!

Why did you figure that?


-1bigsteve (o:

Aviation was just stating to take off (sorry) in the early 1900's and Lizzie must have been aware of the barnstormers touring the country (hmm, I wonder If she ever flew?).

Radio brodcasting started in the early 1920's. Was there a radio at Maplecroft?

Hello SteveS. I can picture a t-shirt with "WWLD" on the front and a hatchet on the back ...

...Someone must have done that by now.

Hi back at ya KAE. I was picturing the exact same T-shirt. If no one has done it yet maybe we should cash in on it.

Because, Bigsteve, you are fair and even-handed and you root for the little guy.

I told you I was catching up on my reading and in all honesty I thought it was an interesting question.

I have often wondered what my dad or grandmother would think if they saw certain things. If my grandma saw a microwave--I just can't imagine what she would think. If my dad saw what I had today, he would probably be leary of coming in my house. He never saw a microwave, VHS tape, DVD or player, or even a refridgerator that could dispense ice or water.
I myself would love to see the technology in about a hundred years from now.

Almost forgot: Welcome Kae, good to have a new member.

I know some members here know some of the titles Lizzie had in her library at Maplecroft. I recall one on animal vivisection- and quite a few novels. She appears, although a high school drop out, to have been a voracious reader. -A good point is made about her trip to the Columbian Expo which was teeming with the latest in technology, and of course her trip to Europe. Victorians were madly curious about everything and were avid collectors of just about anything you can name from butterflies to exotic ferns. I would have no doubt Lizzie would have been scanning the newspapers and haunting her "TV" if she had been around in 1969.

Let us look at this in an impartial way. Let us not use our hearts, emotions, or an other sentiment of choice. Let us look at this in black and white.

Was Bob Wrong? Yes he was half wrong. There was nothing wrong with the general question, that being, how does this pertain to Lizzie? Do you think it is important to ask such a question? Do you think others ponder or care about whether Lizzie would care? etc. etc.

It is not the question. It is the way Bob put it forward...the way he embellished it, with sarcasm, in a mocking voice.

He could have simply asked:

"Do you think the question is pertinent. Do you think the question is a little far-fetched," etc.

Nothing wrong with that.

Bob was wrong with his approach. (Who knows, perhaps Bob was having a bad day; his cat spit up a fur ball on his favorite puffy shirt? Just kidding Bob:razz: )

But, let us look at the other side of the coin. To get upset and dump on everyone on this site can be viewed as somewhat, carless, rash, or at the very least unfair.

I think snokkums is overreacting. And if you don't agree that she is overplaying it, you must admit she is wrong to dump on the entire site.

You can't take your ball and go home because the guy in left field insulted you. Their are other players on the field.

Many of these players have proven their appreciation of snokkums. I understand that she may be away from her computer. If not, I find her very slow to respond to all those here on LAB.com which have expressed their respect and regard for snokkums.

That being said:

You can not interact with a bunch of strangers (remember Audrey) or with others who may have strong opinions and express it in hard manner, (remember Rays) and not expect such situation to pop-up. You can't play in this machine, engage the web, take the podium and not expect criticism, and in some cases condemnation.

We must develop a thicker derma. Some can not. That's OK.

I am not trying to be mean here, please understand.

I am just trying to say that the positive response snokkums received has more than made up for Bob's bad manners.

It is time to put it behind us.

Come on snokkums. We would all like to see you back.

What Bob did was not nice.

Don't make us beg.

That's not nice either.

Well put.

Yes, and I love your Nixon quote on the other post.

My personal view has always been this. If I run across a thread or a question that I feel is "off-key" or don't have any interest in, I stay out of it and let the other members enjoy the conversation. I have never told anyone that their question is "inappropriate," after all who am I to say (although I might be laughing to myself)? By asking a lot of questions about Lizzie, even though we may never know the right answer, may give us a better understanding of Lizzie's personality. The best way of making discoveries is by asking questions. I feel Snokk's question got us to thinking of Lizzie's possible interest in technology and advancements, something I had never really thought of before. What burns me is when someone says, "Why ask the question if we will never know the answer?" That is very short-sighted. If man had never asked questions that they felt they would never have the answer to we would not have made the advancements that we have today.

On the other hand, if someone was to ask if uncle John trimmed his nose hairs or what brand of toilet paper Lizzie liked then I think I would be looking for an exit. There would have to be some link between those questions and the case. "Nose hairs found on the bed spread. Uncle John's or the Killer's?" "Roll of toilet paper found in Lizzie's closet. Her brand or did the killer leave it?"

I personally think Snokk's question was appropriate. I sometimes get stuck in the rut of thinking "did she or didn't she?" Snokk's question got me to thinking about Lizzie herself, what she liked, what interests did she have, etc., etc. Hmmm, "killer profiling?"

Keep those questions coming, Snokks!

Welcome aboard, KAE! I hope you enjoy your time here. You're only 50? Geeze, you're just a kid. Have fun.


-1bigsteve (o:

mb - Yes, well put, though I can't admit to having much patience with questions which seem, to me, to be posted in the absence of having something better to say. Couple that with my having lived with this case for over thirty years, and maybe my frustration level can be imagined.

That said, I am only one player, and I do not wish to drive anyone away. Do I wish, sometimes, that certain posters would refrain from asking certain types of questions? Yup! That's my opinion, and I have a right to it.

This site is for the discussion of the Lizzie Borden Murder case, everybody here has the right to post what ever question, or thought they may have. For you to say that you have been living with the case for 30 years is irrelevant,because so have I and many others, Snokkums has a right to post just like you.
If you are not interested in the topic, simply ignore it, I think you are trying to deliberately hurt her or have some other agenda. I hardly think she is in the category of Rays or Audrey. Just my opinion, I have not been a regular here for some time, but I do log on and read the posts because I am interested in all things Lizzie Borden just like you and the rest of us BOb. Maybe an apology is in order?

Bob Gutowski @ Wed Jul 29, 2009 2:18 pm wrote:mb - Yes, well put, though I can't admit to having much patience with questions which seem, to me, to be posted in the absence of having something better to say. Couple that with my having lived with this case for over thirty years, and maybe my frustration level can be imagined.

That said, I am only one player, and I do not wish to drive anyone away. Do I wish, sometimes, that certain posters would refrain from asking certain types of questions? Yup! That's my opinion, and I have a right to it.

We have the right to address the question, not the questioner. The term "you" or "certain posters" makes it personal. I seriously doubt that any "Thought Police" are necessary here.

Yes Smudgeman>

In my post above I did mention Rays and Audrey. I was not making a comparison between Snok and them.

What I was saying was that you don't know who you are talking to in this machine, in this site or any other site.

If One wishes to engage with others...others being strangers, one will encounter characters such as Audrey, who was not who she/he said she/he said they were. Or Rays, who relished in insulting, attacking, disparaging others who did not agree with him.

To join a site, any site, you need to understand that rude, rigid and very opinionated people exist, and at any moment may begin playing hardball.

I may pull my pants down; some will kiss it, some will give it a good swift kick. Every time you express your convections, notions, ideas and theories, you are pulling your pants down.

The kisses feel good, but be ready for that boot to the ego.

mbhenty @ Wed Jul 29, 2009 11:53 am wrote:

Let us look at this in an impartial way. Let us not use our hearts, emotions, or an other sentiment of choice. Let us look at this in black and white.

Was Bob Wrong? Yes he was half wrong. There was nothing wrong with the general question, that being, how does this pertain to Lizzie? Do you think it is important to ask such a question? Do you think others ponder or care about whether Lizzie would care? etc. etc.

It is not the question. It is the way Bob put it forward...the way he embellished it, with sarcasm, in a mocking voice.

He could have simply asked:

"Do you think the question is pertinent. Do you think the question is a little far-fetched," etc.

Nothing wrong with that.

Bob was wrong with his approach. (Who knows, perhaps Bob was having a bad day; his cat spit up a fur ball on his favorite puffy shirt? Just kidding Bob:razz: )

But, let us look at the other side of the coin. To get upset and dump on everyone on this site can be viewed as somewhat, carless, rash, or at the very least unfair.

I think snokkums is overreacting. And if you don't agree that she is overplaying it, you must admit she is wrong to dump on the entire site.

You can't take your ball and go home because the guy in left field insulted you. Their are other players on the field.

Many of these players have proven their appreciation of snokkums. I understand that she may be away from her computer. If not, I find her very slow to respond to all those here on LAB.com which have expressed their respect and regard for snokkums.

That being said:

You can not interact with a bunch of strangers (remember Audrey) or with others who may have strong opinions and express it in hard manner, (remember Rays) and not expect such situation to pop-up. You can't play in this machine, engage the web, take the podium and not expect criticism, and in some cases condemnation.

We must develop a thicker derma. Some can not. That's OK.

I am not trying to be mean here, please understand.

I am just trying to say that the positive response snokkums received has more than made up for Bob's bad manners.

It is time to put it behind us.

Come on snokkums. We would all like to see you back.

What Bob did was not nice.

Don't make us beg.

That's not nice either.

It's not that I am away from my computer, I don't want to respond. I've taken myself off the site.

You could have fooled me? When I take myself off a site I don't visit it or read it any longer.

I sincerely feel bad that you were so hurt by what Bob said.

Sorry you feel that way.

I speak for myself when I say.....

The least you could do is thank all those that have supported you before you go. Don't you think.


Well. Nothing left to say, I suppose.

I really think this whole fiasco needs to be dropped. Enough is enough! There are enough sites with people bickering back and forth...let's not make this forum one of them.

That is true. There is nothing left to be said. But............that being said:

Snoks had the power here. She could have ended this long ago by simply acknowledging those who supported her and continuing with the real thread which was about the moon question.

I started it off.

I was the first to answer snok's question. I tried to stay on topic. snok's should have had enough confidence in her question to ignore Bob and continue discussion.

With all the support snok's had here she had been totaly lifted and redemmed. She could have ended this long ago. She chose to wallow and sulk and splash around in anger and resentment.

At first I felt very hurt for Snoks.

Now I don't. She is so wrapped up with herself and her hurt that she has not considered the feeling of those which have supported her.

Some may want to continue to express or linger in sympathy. But we are adults here not children. You can't ignore everyone, take your ball, and go home without someone on the field yelling foul, not fair.

And to quote Bob........"That's my opinion, and I have a right to it."

well, i like to think that Lizzie would have had some ridiculous party to celebrate.
if she could erect palm trees in the back yard...

i have been reading the posts for this question and without drawing this out further, i must admit i am a little intrigued...who the hell is/was Audrey????!!!
i came across some of good ole whatsisnames posts (*shudder*) when i first joined, but this has added a whole new dimension to the Lizzie family thread for me. Is Audrey the member of the family we no longer talk about...much like Andrew's illegitimate son
(no, i don't believe this theory!!!!!)

BigSteve, you mentioned earlier (post#3) that "maybe Emma just felt a need to be Queen Bee of her own house."

I've wondered if Emma liked or agreed on the choice of the French Street house as suitable to both their tastes, to begin with. Maybe she was not too happy with that address or that style of home.

Also, tho, Emma did not settle anywhere as Mistress of her own home until she got into the Minden Apartments in Providence, but usually seemed to live with others even after that:
Helen Brownell in Fairhaven, the Gardners in Providence, Rev Buck's daughters in Fall River, and the Connors in Newmarket.

edit

Kat @ Fri Jul 31, 2009 6:04 pm wrote:BigSteve, you mentioned earlier (post#3) that "maybe Emma just felt a need to be Queen Bee of her own house."

I've wondered if Emma liked or agreed on the choice of the French Street house as suitable to both their tastes, to begin with. Maybe she was not too happy with that address or that style of home.

Also, tho, Emma did not settle anywhere as Mistress of her own home until she got into the Minden Apartments in Providence, but usually seemed to live with others even after that:
Helen Brownell in Fairhaven, the Gardners in Providence, Rev Buck's daughters in Fall River, and the Connors in Newmarket.

Yes, I have often wondered if maybe Emma didn't care for the "rich" house and the type of life style it represented. Perhaps it was just too "up posh" for her taste. Her leaving may not have had anything to do with "Lizzie's secrets," death threats, parties or with Lizzie at all. But of course they did have a falling out later on. There seems to be all kinds of possibilities for Emma's leaving. I wish I had been a fly on the wall with a tape recorder running...


-1bigsteve (o:

SarahJay @ Thu Jul 30, 2009 5:51 pm wrote:well, i like to think that Lizzie would have had some ridiculous party to celebrate.
if she could erect palm trees in the back yard...

i have been reading the posts for this question and without drawing this out further, i must admit i am a little intrigued...who the hell is/was Audrey????!!!
i came across some of good ole whatsisnames posts (*shudder*) when i first joined, but this has added a whole new dimension to the Lizzie family thread for me. Is Audrey the member of the family we no longer talk about...much like Andrew's illegitimate son
(no, i don't believe this theory!!!!!)

Hi SarahJay,

When you gain access to "Lizzie's Privy" you will find threads discusing "Audrey" and one or two other personas. The Administrator has asked us to keep our discussions about those three confined to the "Privy" away from the publics eyes so that is why we don't talk openly about them. It will make very interesting reading when you get there.


-1bigsteve (o:

Kat @ Tue Jul 28, 2009 9:53 pm wrote:Because, Bigsteve, you are fair and even-handed and you root for the little guy.

Oh, I didn't know my "slip" was showing.

I always try to be fair with everyone. I know what it's like getting "jumped on."


-1bigsteve (o:

This is the very forum dedicated to the Borden case, to be politically correct, I posted my thread here:

viewtopic.php?f=9&t=5205

mbhenty wrote: ...

But, most of all, I don't think she would believe it.

Man on the moon. Prove it. Place a billboard for GEICO or something we can see from earth.

Landed on the Moon??????? Even a caveman would believe it.

Nope, I think I speak for Lizzie when I say she would neither care or believe it.

Yes, mbhenty, maybe we could ask the question in another way: would Lizzie believe the moon landing? Especially the Lizzie after the trial: government, you accused me for murder, but you failed to prove my guilt; man on the moon? Please prove it.

"I think I speak for Lizzie", me too.