Lizzie Borden Society Forum

Two things- Does anyone remember when Abby said that "they" took her key? And, does anyone know if the key to the back door also opened the front door?

If someone was in cahoots to arrange locking in the parents so they couldn't escape if they tried to run while getting murdered, it would explain why the key was taken from Abby. And maybe the reason Andrew couldn't get into the front or back door that morning was because someone could have switched his key when he wasn't aware of it. Just a thought.

I have always wondered who were the "they" she was referring to? I am assuming Lizzie and ? (who?)
Was Bridget allowed to have her own set of keys? Did the police ask to see who had what keys? The whole key thing has always bothered me.

See the reference to Abbie's key in the Privy:
viewtopic.php?t=37

The whole thing about keys has always been a mystery. Even the keys found on Andrew's body. Here's Dr. Dolan being questioned at the Preliminary hearing (p183):

"Q. What did you take?
A. I took some keys.
Q. Where are they.
A. In my possession.
Q. Have you got them here?
A. No Sir.
Q. Will you produce them?
A. If you wish, yes sir.
Q. I do. You took some keys?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. A bunch?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. That is to say, they were on a key ring?
A. Yes Sir."

Then on page 184:

"Q. Have you any keys other than this bunch of keys?
A. There is a big key there, like a shop key.
Q. Have you any other key besides the big shop key and this bunch of keys?
A. I do not know, I have not examined them thoroughly; they were all put in a handkerchief, and tied up, and they have remained that way.
Q. I understand you have not altered these keys as to their arrangement since you received them?
A. No Sir."

And on page 194, where Dr. Dolan has been recalled:

"Q. I asked you before you went, I will ask you again now you see the keys, whether these keys are arranged as they were when they were handed to you?
A. Yes Sir, I have not disturbed them."

All these question were asked of Dolan by Adams.

Why the concern whether the keys were in the same arrangement? I could see concern if there was one missing but their arrangement?

Kat, I always learn so much from you because you seem to know just where to get your hands on the info. However, unfortunately, I can not access the privy and would very much like to read about Abby and the keys. Could you please work some magic and release the info on this board. Thanks:)

Yes Harry, thanks for the testimony! I've always thought the questioning about the keys was very telling- but telling what~ I do not know!

From Proceedings, the chapter on The Hip-Bath Collection, by Ashton, Jenning's Notes:

j. Mrs. Dr. Bowen--called and said that on Tuesday of the murder she was walking up the street with Mrs. Borden and (spoke?) and (B saw?) said L wasn't up yet but Mrs. Bowen had seen someone come away so she knew she was and went over there with Mrs. Borden.

Mrs. Borden said she couldn't get in the front way 'for they had taken her key.' So she and Mrs. Bowen went in by the back door.

--The Legend 100 Years After the Crime--
A Conference on the Lizzie Borden Case
Bristol Community College, Fall River, MA
Aug. 3-5, 1992
The Hip-Bath Collection, Barbara Ashton, p211+

Smudgeman @ Wed Jul 22, 2009 3:01 pm wrote: Was Bridget allowed to have her own set of keys? Did the police ask to see who had what keys? The whole key thing has always bothered me.

Bridget testified she had a key to the back door. She is asked about this three times at the Preliminary Hearing (p. 174,209,231) and is also queried about it at trial.

As to whether the key to the front door opened the back door -- my guess is probably not -- Bridget says at trial that it was her understanding that both she and Abby had keys to the back door so Mrs. Bowen and Abby likely used Mrs. Borden's back door key on Tuesday.

It is puzzling why the "arrangement" of the keys was important to the defense. I wonder what they were trying to get at? Andrew must have had a number of keys pertaining to businesses and rentals as well as his residence. Maybe these were expected to be separated in a certain way and they weren't? But I agree it does seem a minor point to bring up twice in their cross unless there was an underlying reason.

I do not believe the arrangement of the keys had any importance at all. IMO the defense asked a lot of irrelevant questions to to cause a smoke screen and divert attention from the damning evidence.

How could anyone be expected to remember the order or *arrangement* of the keys on Andrew's key ring- other than Andrew? That's my first question.
Then I would start wondering about the locks those keys were for.
Then I think about the cellar doors, and Morse, for some reason.
It could also maybe be interpreted as a question as to any keys missing from the ring, known to have been there but now gone? I always wondered that...

And since the statement made in Jenning's notes say Mrs. Borden's key was taken therefore she went in the side door- that does seem to imply the front door key was not a key that opened the (back) side door.

In my experience with old houses, both my own and friends and relatives, those that had the original locks had separate keys for each door. I have always assumed that one lock was sold with it's own keys, but not multiple locks that opened with the same key, as we have today.

When Abby said "they" have taken her key, I assumed she meant one of the girls. "They" could be anyone, even Andrew. Perhaps a new key needed to be made, someone lost their own key, etc. Since she had a side door key, apparently it was not an issue.

From the standpoint that Abby and Mrs. Bowen needed a key to enter by the side door, Kat is correct, it implies that the front and side door locks were not keyed alike. However, it isn't clear whether they needed a key to enter the side door or not. Abby having made the comment to Mrs. Bowen about her key being taken may tend to imply that a key was needed, otherwise why even bring up the subject?

A possible dilemma for Abby lacking a front door key is finding the side screen door hooked. They would not likely hook the screen door and leave by the front door without first closing and locking the inside side door and that would tend to indicate that everyone was out. If just the screen door was found hooked, it would imply that someone was in the house, and, at the price of a bit of dignity, Abby could holler to be let into her own house.

Another thought, Abby seemed to know she could get in the side door regardless of how it was found, locked or unlocked. This also implies that the doors were not keyed alike, because she also seemed to know she could not get in the front door, which supports Kat's point.

Come to think of it, Lizzie's story about Abby having a note might have some bearing on whether the doors were keyed alike. Assuming the same key opened both doors, Abby would be taking a chance of being locked out of the house if she left for any reason. The other occupants might be away on some errand, so there was no guarantee she could get in when she returned. This might have prevented Abby from leaving without making arrangements for someone to be home while she was gone.

I was reading the Prelim testimony today (again) and the keys Harry posted about came up. Apparently there were 2 loose keys and then the ones on the ring. (194/94)
Also, Bridget says Andrew had a key to the barn. (60/183)
One of the single loose keys found on Andrew was called a *shop key* at the Prelim.

I think the really important part of the KEY question, is who did "they" give the key to? As i recall this all happened shortly or immediately before the murders...if "they took her key" I bet it went to whoever needed to get in that day!

I think the really important part of the KEY question, is who did "they" give the key to? As i recall this all happened shortly or immediately before the murders...if "they took her key" I bet it went to whoever needed to get in that day!

I never thought of that before Steveads, but that is a very good possibility. Abby's key being given to the murderer.

But if Abby's key had been given to the murderer, would he have been able to get in? One of the front door locks was a bolt, not a key-lock which is why Andrew could not get in.
According to Mrs. Dr. Kelly's witness statement we know that Andrew tried to put a key in the lock, so he had some kind of key.
I just wonder why someone inside the house AFTER Andrew had left would need to fasten all three locks?
Bridget in her testimony seemed to get very defensive about those locks-saying, "I didn't know anything about the door. I didn't have nothing to do with it."
That seems to me to suggest that Bridget herself thought the front door having all three of the locks set was suspect.
That means Someone locked those locks for some reason after Andrew left. Sometime between when Lizzie made sure Bridget was going to be outside washing windows. Hmmmm.

We don't know which door Andrew left by- no one saw him go. It's been assumed he left by the side door maybe because Mrs. Churchill saw him outside on that side of the house around 9 am.

Inquest
Mrs. Churchill
126

Q. Up to eleven o’clock had you been at home?
A. I was at home until about eleven.
Q. Had you seen any of the household, or anybodyelse in the yard?
A. I saw Mr. Borden I should think about nine o’clock, the hour he usually goes down street. I was in my kitchen doing kitchen work. I happened to see him out in the yard.
Q. You saw him going out?
A. Yes, he was going as if he had been out in the yard, out by the barn, coming out around the back steps.
Q. He went out on the street?
A. I dont know. When I looked at him he was standing there by the steps as if he was headed for the street, to the west.
Q. You did not see him go to the street?
A. No Sir, I was tending my work, I did not look after he went by.