Lizzie Borden Society Forum

As a newbie-in all my research so far, what is disurbing me the most is what drove Emma to move from Maplecroft? Most people just believe that it was Nance and the parties. However, this seems odd to me.
Remember, Emma stood by her sister the entire trial when she was an accused murdress, as well as after when she was still condemned in the court of public opinion.
Something so dire occured that Emma had to seek the counsel of her minister. The fact that Lizbeth had actor "friends" and threw parties and perhaps consumed spirits even for the times seems like a small reason to move yourself completely out of your home and never return.
I am quite surprised to find so little information on Lizzie after the trial. You would think people would talk more.
Any thoughts on what else might have sent Emma packing?

Well, lets say Lizzie was guilty. I think Emma supported Lizzie during the trial not just because they were sisters but also to maintain some facade of respectability in the public's eyes. Appearance was everything in those days. Now, sometime along the line Emma must have figured out that Lizzie commited the crimes but again they stayed together for the same reasons. But as time went on the strain of living with Lizzie, knowing she was the killer, must have weighed heavily on Emma's mind. As people get older they often times feel a need to make amends or come clean about something they have done or know about. Emma may have grown tired of Lizzie's attitude and decided it was best to seperate. Of course Emma's leaving may not have had anything at all to do with the crime. Maybe Emma just felt a need to be Queen Bee of her own house.

Of course all of this is pure speculation on my part as I don't know what exactly went on between those two. If the crimes had happened today I'm sure we would know a lot more and each sister would be writing "tell-all" books about the other. It's interesting to speculate about this case and what went on behind those walls.


-1bigsteve (o:

"You would think people would talk more"
Yes, and today they would. Even as far as I go back in the city (1972), the topic of Lizzie draws mixed reviews. There is a hardcore of natives in the city which do not talk about it, regard it as a blot on Fall River's history. And not all of them are silver-haired! Well, I get it- when visitors ignore the city's fascinating history about the steamboats and the textiles, and mills and only gab about hatchets and blood and Lizzie, I would get steamed sometimes if this were my hometown. Mrs. Brigham, the former curator of the historical society said to me, "It was never discussed when I was growing up"- she lived to be 100. Len Rebello says he once asked someone who knew her late in life what Lizzie was like " You need to mind your own business" was the reply.

You also need to understand the Yankee mind. As a non-Northerner, I learned in a hurry, New Englanders tend to be more tight-lipped than Southerners, and they do mind their own business. I was constantly getting hurt feelings when I first moved up here until I grew to understand the culture differences. I am sure plenty of chitchat regarding Lizzie's guilt or lack of went on-behind closed doors-then and now.

With TV, and especially the internet and the Borden House so public, far more information and speculation is out there- and younger people come to the city talking freely of the crimes, of Lizzie, and all aspects of the case. It was bound to happen. As to why Emma left- I think it was a heck of a lot more than the occasional visit by Nance O'Neil and a drop of liquor here and there!

Shelley @ Wed Jul 29, 2009 4:49 pm wrote: You also need to understand the Yankee mind. As a non-Northerner, I learned in a hurry, New Englanders tend to be more tight-lipped than Southerners, and they do mind their own business.

That seems to be true. I grew up in the South and we knew our neighbors business almost as well as we knew our own. And if someone asked, we would gladly spill the dirt on anyone we knew!

I'm wondering how much credence do you give to the "Emma Interview" after she left the house? She speaks of her continued belief in Lizzie's innocence even though her reasoning "never found the weapon" seemed a little strange. Did Emma actually sit for that interview, and why weren't more pertinent questions addressed?

Does anyone know where to find the Emma interview? I've searched the site and can't locate it! it's probably right in front of my nose!

Well here is some of it I had stored in a file:, that is, if you really believe she gave that interview .

"The happenings at the French Street house that caused me to leave, I must refuse to talk about. I did not go until conditions became absolutely unbearable. Then, before taking action, I consulted the Rev. A. E. Buck. After carefully listening to my story, he said it was imperative that I should make my home elsewhere. I do not expect ever to set foot on the place while she lives." Boston Sunday Post, April 13, 1913, p. 25.

Lots of loose ends in that interview. Roughly twenty years after moving into Maplecroft together, something happens to make a move by Emma "imperative". Why Emma and not Lizzie? It sounds like it was something that worsened over time if she implied that she waited until she found conditions unbearable. If Emma refused to talk about the reason, it must have been something which was not relatively common knowledge. Nance O'Neil and the theater friends were no real surprise. Consulting with Reverend Buck might have been the result of a moral dilemma rather than a question of personal safety. Whatever happened, the solution was final.

The Borden sisters had lived together for over fifty years by 1913. How many surprises could be left by then? In any case, Emma left Maplecroft and didn't return, whether after consulting with Reverend Buck or not. Did Emma or Reverend Buck refute the article at any time?

I believe the theatre crowd had different morals that Emma and her compatriots. Temperance was a big part of that. Andrew Borden would not rent a shop to someone who sold liquor. The WCTU was a tenant of Andrew's. Emma might have tolerated Lizzie partying and possibly imbibing liquor when she was "away," but the presence of alcohol in the home where Emma lived might have been too much for her to bear. Temperance was tied to many people's religious convictions. Alcohol and evil were the same thing. A minister with the same convictions would, of course, counsel Emma to remove herself from the presence of "evil."

Theatre people, themselves, were regarded by many as loose and immoral people. Their makeup, dress, and language would easily offend any proper New England lady of those times. To have Lizzie's visits to Nance grow to loaning/spending Papa's money on her and then publicly partying with her in their home would also be a great affront to Emma. It would have taken much less than Lizzie having sex with Nance to create a major offense in traditional New England.

Remember, these people were followers of the original Puritans--no music, no dancing, no laughing, observe the Sabbath, etc. I don't know the day of Lizzie's party, but a Saturday night soiree continuing in to the early Sunday hours would be a major sin. These New Englanders were not like today's people. They were strict. They were uptight. There were rules. They were governed by their appearances to their neighbors and their church. When you openly offended the society around you, you became a pariah (like Lizzie).

I think there were limits in Emma's moral code which would not let her endorse her sister's lifestyle. Emma was a product of a very rigid and intolerant society. They were endorsers of the "Banned in Boston"philosphies. Heck, there have been comments on another part of the forum about Alice Russell's middle name, and people thinking "Maria" was "too Catholic" for the proper Fall River crowd. There was a code of thought and behavior you were expected to follow. Rigid is the word for many New Englanders...it still exists among some of the founding families right until today. Massachusetts still had Blue Laws until 2004. WASP was the ruling class.

As an Actor and a New Englander, I understand your point. I do, however, believe that that strict of an attitude was prevelant in 1890's but by 1905 had changed to some degree.
In the book, "Actors and the American Culture" by Benjiman McArthur, he gives examples that even by 1904 the most conservative of Christian leaders believed that the theatre as long as done with good (christian) intentions was an acceptable part of christian life.
I do understand what your saying about the puritan attitudes that have even carried over to today. I don't dismiss those.
I do think that this wasn't enough to drive Emma abruptly away, and by most accounts, never see her sister again.
I think I am leaning towards the idea that Lizzie and Nance were lovers. I see a lot of people dismiss this outright and I think that is only out of their own prejudice.
It seems to be pretty well documented by accounts of several people that not only was Lizzie a "friend" to Nance, but supported her financially in a great many ways. I would assume it wasn't the habit for women to be financially subsidizing other women of the time unless they were close family. Had she been a life-long friend that scenario would be more believable. But the fact that the relationship began and ended within a few years, in my opinion, adds weight to the fact that this was a romantic attatchment. Even if this were current, I don't see how you can get around the fact that these women were obviously more than just friends.
So with the fact that Actors were hanging out at Maplecroft and perhaps imbibing, add to the fact that maybe Lizzie was openly (at least behind the doors of Maplecroft) carrying on a love affair with another woman, I think would be enough to send Emma packing.

A lot of people for some reason don't want to believe that Lizzie may have been lesbian. There was something written about her having been named as correspondent by some man who was trying to divorce his wife. Has there ever been any research done on this to see if it is true?

Yes, good point about that case. Nance was most certainly bisexual if you read any of the Hollywood bios and chitchat articles about old Gay Hollywood.
Well, it has always been a real possibility. It would surely be enough of a stunner to prompt Emma to leave and stay away back in 1927.

You know what stood out in my mind when I read about it the first time... after the murders when Alice was one of the first called to the scene... I read somewhere about how Lizzie was resting her head on Alice's shoulder. Sure, innocent enough, but I couldn't help wonder if she didn't have a crush of some sort on Alice. After all, if Lizzie did commit the murders, she hardly needed consoling. I even wondered if her visit to Alice the night before was a poor me act to gain a little sympathy, and a forshadowing of what was soon to come. The next day she rushes Bridget off to get her friend. Even if there was no interest on Alice's part, Lizzie could have been seizing the moment to get some support from someone she fancied. Alice even stayed over.

That may be too far out on a limb, but oddly it was my gut reaction when I read that. That was before I had ever even heard about Nance.

Shelley @ Thu Jul 30, 2009 1:40 pm wrote:Yes, good point about that case. Nance was most certainly bisexual if you read any of the Hollywood bios and chitchat articles about old Gay Hollywood.
Well, it has always been a real possibility. It would surely be enough of a stunner to prompt Emma to leave and stay away back in 1927.

LOL....I'm sorry shelley, you know I love and respect you but when I read your typo there I just about burst laughing to myself. I was under the impression that it was DEATH that made Emma leave and stay away in 1927. I am such a devil i guess because I know that was an innocent mistake and was meant to be 1905...but it just dang tickled me.

Personally, Lizzie's sexuality doesn't matter to me. I just don't think it would take something that radical to ruffle Emma's moral code. My mother would have called her "a dried-up ol' prune."

I find Emma very dour. I have a hard time trying to imagine her laughing or smiling more than some thin-lipped polite smile. I don't see Emma searching for happiness or endorsing anyone else's search for it.

Good catch Steve! 1905 it should be. Yes- Death IS the final farewell from which we do not return (unless you get into all the paranormal stuff)!

I sometimes raise an eyebrow when I read novels and articles from the nineteenth century, - women had such girl crushes, were so affectionate and loving physically, in speech and writing that one might swear they were lovers. I suppose with men kept firmly at arm's length until marriage in polite society, all that overflowing affection burbled over into safe relations with female companions. I was just watching Picnic at Hanging Rock again, and the caresses and language of those girls for each other and teacher crushes would surely be taken as lesbian tendencies today. Handholding, tender notes, sleeping together cheek to cheek (watched or read Little Women lately?)- all were permissible and not unusual at the time. Most assuredly were platonic, and some surely were lesbian relationships. Then there was the Boston marriage of convenience and ladies living together for financial reasons and companionship. Lots of widows and spinsters in the Borden case. As far as Nance and Lizzie- hard to know one way or another. Maybe Nance, who was so-inclined, met with a rebuff from Lizzie and that is why they split in 1906. Just one more little secret.

Shelley, in a prior post accurately quoted the article on Emma's interview in the Boston Post:

"The happenings at the French Street house that caused me to leave, I must refuse to talk about. I did not go until conditions became absolutely unbearable. Then, before taking action, I consulted the Rev. A. E. Buck. After carefully listening to my story, he said it was imperative that I should make my home elsewhere. I do not expect ever to set foot on the place while she lives." Boston Sunday Post, April 13, 1913, p. 25."

If Emma consulted with the Rev. Buck before leaving it had to be two years earlier than the date she left. The good Rev. died March 9, 1903.

Oh! Excellent Harry! I never checked the date when Buck died. I thought he had gone back to England. Of course, I have never been absolutely positive Emma gave the interview, and that sketch of her which went with it could have been done at any time. Or- it took Emma a looooooong time to take action!

And I thought it was Lizzie who did things slowly.

Thank you Harry! It's alway fun learning new facts.
I am beginning to think Emma liked to lie. Which leads me to believe that she has some sort of part in the whole scenario. Perhaps she was like so many-had told herself long enough that she did not do anything wrong that she started to believe it. It was easier to blame Lizzie.
More and more I am starting to think that perhaps Lizzie confessed what actually happened to Nance and Emma knew about it and wanted to distance herself so if it ever came out she could call Lizzie "crazy."
So facinating.

In Rebello, he says Rev Jubb was the one who returned to England, and it seems to be sometime between 1896 and 1904 (when he died there). See pages 167-8 for Jubb *Profile.*.

There are *did-she? didn't she?* camps as to whether Emma gave that 1913 interview. I didn't believe it myself until I found the story in the paper from the previous week about Lizzie- I looked in Rebello and found the headline, from April 6, 1913, page 306, and then ordered it up, compared the items and then wrote about my impressions in The Hatchet *Black & White* issue. (That was a free download at the Hatchet site for a long time- you'all may have it as a PDF in your files.
Vol 2, Issue 4, Aug/Sept 2005, pages 6-19)

Also, I transcribed both articles fully there.

One is:
"Lizzie Borden Twenty Years After The Tragedy"- Boston Sunday Herald, 6 April 1913

The other is:
"Guilty--No! NO!
Lizzie Borden's Sister Breaks 20-Year Silence"--Boston Sunday Post, 13 April 1913

Len Rebello wrote an article for The Hatchet where he puts forth a case of the *interview* as possibly being bogus.

I will say tho, that since he found the author, Edwin Maguire, actually existed- which fact I could not find at the time of my research and article- to me it actually seems even more likely the interview took place. Gertrude Stevenson wrote the prior one from April 6, and I included some bio info on her too.

There are several references around here about *parties*- plural- at Maplecroft and I've asked earlier for sources, but so far no one has answered? Anyone have the info, please? Thanks!

Shell, do you have access to the info you refer to where Nance is considered what you describe as: "certainly bisexual?" Thanks!

Shelley @ Thu Jul 30, 2009 3:40 pm wrote:Yes, good point about that case. Nance was most certainly bisexual if you read any of the Hollywood bios and chitchat articles about old Gay Hollywood.
Well, it has always been a real possibility. It would surely be enough of a stunner to prompt Emma to leave and stay away back in 1927.

According to The history of Medway,Mass., 1713-1855 by Ephraim Orcutt Jameson & George James La Croix (on Google books), Rev. Buck had had 7 daughters with the possibility of 5 still living when Emma left the house. The Cast of Characters says Emma lived with Alice Buck in 1912.

Between the Gardners and the Bucks, someone must have known more about the details of the split between Emma and Lizzie.

According to Rebello (p.310), "Emma's reasons for leaving occurred long before she left Lizzie in 1905." Besides Lizzie's friendship with Nance, Rebello cites Emma's objection to the coachman, Joseph Tetrault, and also cites Lizzie's land purchases around French St. Rebello suggests Emma did not like life and Maplecroft and wanted to leave Fall River, while Lizzie refused to do so (p. 311).

In Emma's will, she leaves interest in property or $1000 to Lizzie. Lizzie's will leaves nothing to Emma. Perhaps Emma was as much of a miser as Andrew was supposed to be. Lizzie's spending could have been a long-time sore spot.

Are there any photographs of the Interior Maplecroft ? Lizzie loved to pose, and it seems that she and Emma would have some portraits taken. As I recall, Emma was a Pisces ? They tend to "suffer in silence." Emma looks masculine, to me. Not a criticism, just an observation.

Lizzie must have been fascinated by the Bohemian life. It was like removing a tight corset. She could kick up her heels for a change. She did have a romantic streak. I can believe that she was gay in more ways than one. Maybe both of them were gay ? Emma may have kept a personal tight rein on things, as they say.

Stargazer-if you go on youtube and type in Maplecroft or Lizzie Borden Maplecroft there is actually a tour that was done on one of the news shows. It's the best that I've seen so far, still not good enough! I would love an actual tour!
I too have wondered about the Borden Girls sexuality. My personal speculation (and of course that's all we can do) which I have absolutely no proof of-is that at Least Lizzie was a lesbian. I have lots of lesbian friend-and let me tell you when I see pictures of Lizzie I can just picture her in a softball hat. LOL. Really!
Because I believe Lizzie did do the murders-I also think perhaps Lizzie was sexually abused-this is a theory as well. If you study patricide cases you will see that they usually aren't this violent unless there has been severe abuse. People forget that incest was way more common at the turn of the century. You read multiple stories about fathers that become widowers and take to their daughters bed.
Anyhow-that is of course just speculation....Ahem...there I did it for you "only the facts" folks so you didn't have too...LOL.
The people on this site are fantastic-I am a newbie too-and they are so educated on the case.
Let me know if you have trouble finding that video.