Lizzie Borden Society Forum

How about the taboo topic of Lizzie being "manly"? Is it true that one of the witnsses at her trial said she had a "low voice." That could either mean soft, or baritone... It's food for thought, isn't it, although it's surely been discussed somewhere on this board before... about how Lizzie's nurses were rumored to have said Lizzie was kind of rough and tough? Or am I wrong?

Besides all that, anyhow, being a "lesbian" and having a deep voice are not always necessarily hand-in-hand, as we all know.

Also, didn't I read somewhere that Lizzie had a gold tooth? Again, forgive me if I'm just imagining things again.

All this sort of puts things into perspective as to WHO Lizzie was, the flesh and blood woman. If ever a movie were released about the Lizzie Borden affair, one that stayed true to all the facts and included things like John Morse) it would have to include a good actress who could pull off that type of mannerism, wouldn't it? I know at one point there was rumor of a Patricia Arquette movie in pre-pre production where she would play Lizzie. Sh'es probably too old now. Not to split the post into up into two topics here, but does anyone else remember such a thing?

I think in Rebello's book he shows examples of descriptions of Lizzie from friends and reporters. There's probably a whole section on it! Mary Livermore gives an account, as well.

We have a whole newspaper item calling Lizzie a "Noble Woman, Tho Retiring"~ from The Boston Globe. It is impressions of Lizzie.

LIZZIE BORDEN.

Her School and Later Life – A Noble
Woman, Though Retiring.

FALL RIVER, Aug. 6. – It is the men who have, since the murder, been accorded the space to talk of Lizzie A. Borden, the younger daughter, during the past few days.

It is the gentlemen with whom she was acquainted who have given her character and her personality to the world since the public cared to know about her.

None of her lady friends, the women who know her, with whom she grew up, those with whom she has been associated day by day and year after year, have yet presented their Lizzie Borden.

A woman's opinion of a woman is a consideration Lizzie Borden has not yet been allowed.

Desiring to present this young woman as her friends have known her, to picture her as she daily appeared among women, the writer spent the greater part of the afternoon and evening in conversation with Lizzie's friends.

They talked of her life, of her inclinations, her interest in church work, her modesty of manner, unswerving sincerity, gentle forbearance and aspirations to be and to do all that is best and right in life.

From this consensus of opinion it can well be said: In Lizzie Borden's life there is not one unmaidenly nor a single deliberately unkind act.

Lizzie Borden's life is full of good works, kindly offices in the church and in the society of her friends.

As Lizzie Borden appeared today, as she was stepping into the carriage to follow her parents remains to the cemetery, to the writer, who had never seen her before, it seemed as if she was well-deserving of the ecominums of her friends and of the kind words which follow.

She makes an exceedingly favorable impression and her dignity and her reserve are at once impressed.

It was a trying ordeal to pass before the eyes of a crowd of 1500 morbidly curious spectators.

She wore a tightly fitting black lace dress with a plain skirt and waist of equally modest cut and finish, while a dark hat, trimmed with similar material, rested upon her head.

Of medium height, she is possessed of a symmetrical figure with a retiring manner, and a carriage which would dignifiedly repel the attention

Her Personal Charms
might attract.

A wealth of black hair is revealed under the hat which, arranged on top of the head, is trained about her forehead in short curls, parted in the centre and thrown over to the sides.
Her dark lustrous eyes, ordinarily flashing, were dimmed, and her pale face was evidence of the physical suffering she was undergoing and had experienced.

To sum up, Miss Lizzie Borden, without a word from herself in her own defence, is a strong argument in her own favor.
Although over 30 years old, it cannot be said that she looks it.
In contradistinction from her sister, she looks as much as six years younger than she is as Emma L. Borden looks as many years older than she is.

Lizzie was born in the old family homestead on Ferry st., in which her father has lived and his father before him.
It is the same estate which the dead Andrew J. Borden deeded to the two girls in 1887.

As a child she was of a very sensitive nature, inclined to be non-communicative with new acquaintances, and this characteristic has tenaciously clung to her all through life, and has been erroneously interpreted.

Her sister, being older, was a constant guide and an idolized companion.

An unusual circumstance is that of her practically having no circle of friends until she attained womanhood.

At the usual age she was sent to the Morgan street school, embracing primary and grammar grades.
Her school days were perhaps unlike most girls in this lack of affiliation with her fellow pupils.

As a scholar she was not remarkable for brilliancy, but she was conscientious in her studies and with application always held a good rank in her class.

She entered the high school when about 15 or 16 years old. It was then held in a wooden building on the corner of June and Locust sts., which was removed when the present mammoth structure was presented to the city.

At this time Lizzie was taking piano lessons, and the high school, for some reason, was not congenial to her tastes, for she left after completing a little over a year of the prescribed classical course of study.

Leaving school the girl remained at home with her parents. Emma and one or two neighbors were her only accepted companions.

Her life was uneventful during the few years following her leaving school.

She abandoned her music lessons because, although making encouraging progress, she conceived the idea that she was not destined to become a good musician.
If she could not excel in this accomplishment she did not wish to pursue the study, and so her friends heard her play thereafter but little.

Her father and mother were religious and regular church attendants, and she has been surrounded by
Christian Home Influences.

When a young girl, she accompanied her parents to Chicago, and was there a member of the Sunday school class and punctual in attendance.

She was, however, a girl with anything but an enthusiastic idea of her own personal attainments.
She thought people were not favorably disposed toward her and that she made a poor impression.
This conduced to the acceptance of this very opinion among church people, and consequently the young woman was to some extent avoided by the young women of the church.

There was a remarkable change in her some five years ago and at that time she first began to fraternize with church people. Then, of course, when she was thoroughly understood, when the obnoxiously retiring manner was dissipated and the responsive nature of the girl came to view, she became at once popular, and then came the acquisition of the friends, who today sounded her praises.

Six years ago, through the interest of Mrs. Charles L. Morse, a prominent church worker and the wife of the cashier of the Second National Bank, the wife of Rev. Mr. Buck and other people Miss Lizzie became an active participant in church matters. She made a profession of faith and was received into the church.
She became enthusiastic in the work of inculcating religious principles and high ideals.

The Congregational church is a great missionary institution, doing a great work among the mill operatives.
They have a special Sunday school for this class and Lizzie applied for a position as instructor.

She was given a class of rough, untutored boys and labored with them until her courage was almost gone, and then she was given some girls to teach.

Also connected with the church is a Chinese Sunday school and Miss Lizzie took one of the men to instruct. She had good success and her pupil has since left Fall River.

Temperance work in Fall River has always been actively prosecuted among the church people, and when the Young Women’s Christian Temperance Society was formed as an adjunct of the regular W.C.T.U., Lizzie joined it, and was as enthusiastic a young woman as the society numbered in its organization.

In this part of the church Lizzie Borden was, after her admission, a factor.
She always did her part loyally in all church work.
Her assistance was especially preferred in the matter of decorations and in the originating and carrying out of new ideas in this form of entertainment.

Lizzie Borden was not an artist; she did not paint nor draw, but she possessed an artist’s sense and cultivated it in the knowledge and appreciation of art.

In May, 1890, with a party of friends she made a three months’ tour of Europe, roaming over foreign cities, deriving her greatest pleasure and profit among the art galleries and studying the architecture of the continent under the chaperonage of Miss Cox of Taunton.
Miss Nellie Shove, Miss Anna, daughter of Col. Thomas Borden, both of Fall River, a Taunton young lady and

Lizzie Toured England
and the continent.

They visited London, traversed Scotland, saw Paris and spent some time in Rome.

Lizzie brought home a large collection of photographs of buildings and copies of works of the great masters.

She was particularly fond of Raphael’s Sistine Madonna, and brought home several large copies of it.

She had pictures of St. Peter’s at Rome and other great European cathedrals.

She returned with a store of information, and being a descriptive conversationalist was able to reproduce scenes and incidents with such appreciable accuracy as to be exceedingly entertaining.

When she went to Europe she necessarily gave up her class in Sunday school, and did not resume it upon her return.

She continued, however, to attend church regularly, and when her father left the Central for the First Congregational church, with her sister and mother, she was always found in the family pew at the former house of worship.

Just a week ago today she paid a visit to a party of young friends who are spending the summer at Marion, staying only for the day.

Dr. Handy’s cottage had been hired by Mrs. James H. Jackson, who is chaperoning Misses Mary and Annie Holmes, Miss Remington, Miss Brazer, Miss Johnson and Miss Louise Handy, all of Fall River, during the summer season there.

It was Lizzie’s intention to start this week for a longer stay at the Marion cottage and she says that in anticipation of this visit that she went into the barn on the day of the homicide to get some lead.

These plans are now, however, frustrated.

Many of Miss Borden’s companions are out of town.

Mrs. Charles J. Holmes is one of Miss Borden’s most intimate friends, and when she heard of the murder, she hastened down to the Borden house and has been ministering to the youngest daughter.

Mrs. Holmes says Lizzie was a valued member of the church and was very successful as a teacher in the Mission Sunday school.

Mrs. Holmes esteemed her very highly as a dear friend and as a member of the church.

She says that while to those who did not know her she may have appeared austere, there was a gentle and kindly nature beneath.

Mrs. Holmes could attribute nothing but the purest motives and conceptions to Lizzie Borden.

The lady was much wrought upon by the event and was unable to say much, except to testify to the nobility of Lizzie’s character, the purity of her past life and her interest in temperance work and reformation.

One young lady was called upon while entertaining her fiancé, and at the request of both, her name is withheld.
“I have know Lizzie Borden for several years,” said the young lady, “and I always found her a pleasing companion.
“Lizzie, after joining the church tried to live as good a life as she could conceive of.
“She was a girl who set up ideals and then tried hard to reach them. She was a

Girl Who Never Danced

in her life, and never attended parties where there was dancing.
“After her admission to the church she even stopped attending theatrical performances.
“Lizzie was a girl unusual in this respect. She never seemed to care to cultivate the acquaintance of young men and she never put herself out to receive their attentions.
“Still,” interrupted the young man, “I always enjoyed conversations with Lizzie Borden. She was always entertaining and acted as if she enjoyed talking to you.
“She always made you feel complimented as she invariably listened to what you had to say.”
“I know,” resumed the young lady, “that she always threw her whole heart and soul into anything she tried to do, and had a great influence in the Young Woman’s Christian Association.
“She was so unobtrusive, and though witty herself, always gave other people more credit for bright remarks than she ever claimed for herself.”

There is a lady living on the same street as the Bordens who has known Lizzie all her life, who, on account of this connection, does not want to figure in the case.

Subscribing to all that has been said of Lizzie, she added:
“When Lizzie joined the church she remarked when her persistent work was mentioned:
“’I have been so long doing nothing in the world that I shall have to make up now for the delinquency.’
“There was more than sister intimacy between these two girls. Lizzie thought Emma’s advice and judgment unassailable while Emma would sacrifice herself at any time for her younger sister.
“She was not a girl who readily made friends, but when she did she kept them.
“She was a thoroughly womanly woman when you knew her.
“She had an eye for the beautiful, and used to arrange the vestry for the orange teas and sociables at the church, and when complimented on her work would modestly disclaim credit by saying:
“’I can’t originate an idea, but with some one to direct I can work.’
“She was not a remarkable scholar, but developed into an exceedingly well-informed woman.
“She was a great reader, and had a wonderful memory for books and authors. She could talk books and writers by the hour.
“Lizzie read everything, Emerson and Carlyle, and all standard novels down to the popular stories of the day.
“Her father always had a very good library.
“In all the 20 years and more that I have known Lizzie Borden I never knew her to have but a few men callers, and I don’t think she ever received the attentions of any man.
“She was notably an exception in this regard.
“She had a thorough appreciation of a good joke, and was a great joker herself.
“The day after she had been visiting at Marion she came to tell me about it, and she laughed as she recounted humorous incidents and the bright remarks of the girls at the beach.
“’I never could be as bright as that,’ she said, ‘it is not in me.’
“I know she was looking forward toward her departure for Marion this week and I saw her the day before the murder. She little thought of it being prevented.
“Her European tour she looked upon as the education of her life, and she took a constant delight in looking over the photographs and copies of paintings she brought back with her.
“She was an artist in the finest sense of the word, only lacking the ability to execute.
“I do not believe that Lizzie could harbor a deep bitterness against any one, and could not conceive of her ever letting any desire for revenge, however great the provocation, take possession of her, because she had too much gentle forbearance.”

Rev. E. A. Buck, the clergyman in charge of the missionary work of the Central Congregational church, has known the Borden family for 25 years.

Said he: “Mr. Borden I have known as a man of many commending qualities and of sterling integrity.
“Both daughters I have reason to esteem. While a

Constant Attendant at the Church

Lizzie did not take an active part in the church work until she made a profession of faith and was admitted to the church.
“Then she took hold with a will.
“I have in my missionary Sunday school for the mill operatives some 700 pupils, and I require 50 teachers.
“After joining the church, Lizzie and her sister expressed a desire to take classes.
“I gave Lizzie a class of boys, but she was rather diffident and could not seem to handle them.
“She came one day with tears in her eyes, and said, ‘Mr. Buck, I am discouraged; I can’t keep these boys in order.’
“I then gave her a class of girls, and she evinced an interest, and under her tutelage the class made good progress.
“When she went to Europe she gave it up, and when she returned there was some family circumstances, in consequence of which she did not care to resume teaching.
“I regard Lizzie Borden as one of the brightest girls of my acquaintance, and must say that I enjoyed conversations with her better than with any other of the younger members of the church.
“She is a girl to command admiration for her ability and intellect and respect for her womanly dignity and modesty.
“To those who know her she is open and frank, and to them she seems incapable of any indiscretion, much less a crime of such magnitude as this brutal murder.
“She had courage for the right, but I don’t think she could retain it in the commission of sin.
“For myself, I do not see the slightest grounds for the direction of the slightest suspicion against her, and her friends would be slow to accept any such theory, even were there more direct evidence than has already been obtained.
“Lizzie Borden could never have committed that crime.”

Rev. Dr. Adams, pastor of the First Congregational church, where Mr. Borden has recently been a worshipper, was seen and asked his impression, gained from an acquaintance, but he declined to talk on that point, as he could not see that he could assist at all in the interest of justice.

Andrew Jennings, who is and has been for some years the attorney for Andrew J. Borden, is most positive in prostestation against Lizzie’s physical or mental ability to premeditate a criminal act.
“She is a thoroughly womanly and modest girl,” says Mr. Jennings, “and is a girl of high instincts and noble purposes.”
“There would be nothing in the distribution of property to offer any inducement for the commission of such a crime. No one would profit by Mr. Borden’s death other than in the natural distribution of property. Mr. Borden’s business affairs were as far as I know in perfect order.”

--There are some descriptions of Lizzie as *manly*- I believe they are trying to depict her thusly so as to show a *womanly* woman could not kill her father with an ax~ that it would take a *manly* female to do that.
My impression is that Lizzie was rather petite, compared to our standards now-a-days.

The last page of The Witness Statements has this~

Pages 45-46 by Edwin McHenry:
..."I then pressed the old lady [Mrs. Oliver Gray ll] very hard as to what was said as coming from Mrs. Churchill. She demurred, and finally admitted she got her information from Mrs. Potter and her sister Miss Dimon, the milliners on Fourth street.

I then looked up the above mentioned ladies and found them very hard people to handle. I was with them both two hours, and elicited the following; Lizzie Borden has been practicing in a gymnasium for a long time, and she has boasted of the strength she possessed, not to these people, but to others. The place where she practiced was supposed top be in the Troy Block."...

Kat, thanks for posting this. Very informative - I didn't know Lizzie had first taught a class of unruly boys. And practiced in a gymnasium? Wasn't Fall River once known as Troy?

I saw it mentioned on here one time, someone said Lizzie's nurses in later life described her as being "mannish." Or am I wrong?

The only "mannish" comment I am aware of came from Abby Potter, the daughter of Sarah Whitehead, Abby Borden's stepsister.

Rebello on page 499 has this:

"Mrs. Abby (Whitehead) Potter, niece of Abby Borden, described Lizzie as "an outsider, a big, mannish woman that people were afraid of."

If anyone had a hatred for Lizzie it was Abby Potter so anything she said has to be judged in that light.

I have seen many, many descriptions of Lizzie both physical and what she was like. They covered the whole gamut in both areas. I've never thought of her as mannish. One article described her voice as "guttural".

This is what I posted about her voice way back in April, 2005:

"The "guttural voice" reference is in a New York Herald newspaper article dated Aug. 7, 1892, in Kent's Sourcebook, page 32. That article is also cited in Rebello, page 229.

I have read elsewhere her voice was pleasant.

Lizzie has been described as being a good conversationalist. I don't know if the two are related but can you be good if you have an unpleasant voice?"

Edit here:

As for the nurses, Rebello has this on page 320:

"Nurses who knew Miss [Lizzie] Borden as a patient at Truesdale Hospital two years ago mentioned to their friends, it is said, that she was a woman of decided opinions and will, more masculine in appearance and ways than feminine."

I have read she was not an easy patient in the hospital.

You're welcome!

Hey Har! That was germane to BrianKLoftin's original and follow-up question! Good find!

kssunflower- please notice that the story recounted of that interview with Gray in The Witness Statements, about the gym is Edwin McHenry! I originally made his name larger in size than the standard font so's it would be noticed as source. He's not exactly known for his veracity!

I like to think that Lizzie did dance with Nance. I can see those two sliding down the bannister at 3 AM heading to the kitchen for a midnight snack. "Manly" Lizzie giving nance a piggy back ride in her bloomers. Or was it the other way around. Maybe that's why Emma left the house in a huff.

This really kills the feminine demeanor as portrayed by Elizabeth Montgomery, doesn't it? I also remember the shopkeeper talking about how he recognized her bexause of her "low" voice; I'd forgotten about that, too.

Personally, I don't see the nurses' alleged comments, or Abby Potter's, about Lizzie, as superceeding any other quotes about Lizzie as feminine in action or in her person or appearance. If we read all the pages and pages of comments, that might be a better way to judge.

I don't see it myself, honestly. How does one find "the true Lizzie" sifting through written descriptions anyway, many of which aren't even close to objective?

I agree, how are you going to know the "true" Lizzie from any other Lizzie?

Perhaps there will be further descriptions of "the true Lizzie" in "Parallel Lives", when it is published. (Speaking of which, I wish they'd hurry it up--I'm dying of curiosity!)

Thanks for the great article, Kat! I'd never seen it before. As far as I can remember, this piece is the only time I've seen Lizzie referred to as womanly.

I believe Lizzie was 5'4" and weighed about 135 pounds.

When I look at Lizzie's photos, with those massive jaws, I always thought she looked manly. And I had scarcely heard of her being in the company of any men - usually just other unmarried women, and a lot of the women she knew never did marry. This article is very enlightening. And then there's to be a romantic letter from or to Lizzie from a man in the "Parallel Lives" book coming out?

So Lizzie used to go to the theatre before. I thought she only went after her acquittal. The quotes from many of her friends in that article are priceless. Every little bit helps. I always thought she was gay. Now my opinion is not as decided. I sure didn't know she had so many male friends.

I had read that part in the Witness Statements about Lizzie working out at the gym. At the time I read it, I didn't know who McHenry was. I'm glad you posted that, too.

Brian, I think I've read the same things you mentioned. I haven't heard about her having a gold tooth, tho. Can you remember where you read that? Yes, I believe Eli Bence - the clerk at the drugstore - described her voice as low. He identified her voice when a cop took him into the Borden house, out of view of Lizzie, and let him listen to her talk and said that's the woman who was in the drugstore.

The Lizzie Borden Sourcebook I think contains bits of people saying 'mannish' things about her. It seems like Rebello has some, too. The reporters at the trial describe the color of her hair as everything but platinum blonde. Black, brown and red are described. How do we know which it was? I don't think it was black, but in a black and white photo it's tough to tell whether it was brown or red. She was always known as a famous redhead, but she was also known as a lot of things she wasn't.

Please give to the Edwin Porter grave stone fund. See the main page of The Hatchet to donate.

The reference to Lizzie having gold in her teeth comes from Agnes DeMille's book, page 27:

"She had a good deal of dental work done and there was a gleam of gold when she smiled. She opened her mouth wide when she laughed, and when she laughed, her laugh was memorable--unexpected, mirthless and very loud. At school it had unnerved her classmates. Jokes were one of the things she did not choose to share."

I wonder if Andrew had a deep voice ? Too bad we didn't have Facebook back then, or Youtube. Can you picture Lizzie having someone to talk to ? Staring into the camera :
"Well, Emma's gone, and I can hear them talking in the sitting room. I'm climbing the walls. Maybe tomorrow things will get better." (wink, smile)

Thank you for the post, Stewart! I don't remember reading it.

Good memory, Brian!

I had asked the FRHS a while back if Fall River had old dental records. I had read something about Lizzie going to the dentist (maybe it was this! ha ha). Anyway, they did check, and nobody knows about any old dental records surviving.

I wonder which dentist she went to. There are several listed in the City Directory Kat was kind enough to point out to me.

I remember that *conversation* Sherry- I had been looking for an Irish dentist whose office would be to the north of Second Street, as Mrs. Kelly walked past #92 headed north.

As for the size etc. of Lizzie- I was thinking - we have, so far, not seen any depictions of her in relation to anthing or anyone else.
I think that might be key here to determining whether she was small (petite-ish) or had larger, more *manly* attributes. We see her standing with a chair on the porch at Newport- but even that is not informational.

In relationship to even one other person, for instance, we might find her head is larger than average, or her hands as out of proportion to her size- etc.

The only thing I can come up with is Dr. Bowen's initial prescription for sulfate of morphine. It was the minimum recommended dosage for a 119 pound person. I don't know if the dosages for pain were the same as those for settling nerves, but there probably wasn't much difference. If Lizzie was in the 120 pound weight range, then she wasn't large by any means.

I don't remember any information about dosage and weight from Dr. Bowen, in 1892?

We do have Lizzie's arrest description.

I don't see her weight listed- I know it is somewhere- I think Augusta was right that we have her weight.

What we have is a recommended dose of 0.15-0.30 milligrams morphine per kilogram body mass. One kilogram is roughly equal to 2.2 pounds, so the recommended dose is 6.8-13.6 milligrams per 100 lbs of body mass. 1 grain is 64.99 milligrams, so 1/8 grain is about 8.1 milligrams, which is the minimum recommended dose for 119 pounds body mass.

Is that current safety standards or is that wild-west drug standards 1892 you're quoting?
(If you know what I mean...)

They are one and the same. They refer to active ingredient, and the compound sulfate of morphine would not have changed its atomic structure without becoming something other than sulfate of morphine. The recommended dosages are current, so 1/8 grain sulfate of morphine is minimum for 119 lbs, either now or then.