Lizzie Borden Society Forum

What did Emma gain by the Bordens' deaths? Abby was no longer around, and Emma disliked Abby even more than Lizzie.

But aside from that, it seems like her life was pretty much the same when she moved to Maplecroft. Or do we just not know?

Choosing to live with Lizzie after the trial would not have gained Emma complete independence, so apparently that is not a valid contention. Whatever discontent existed concerning lifestyle between the parents and daughters no longer existed, so there may have been a gain in that respect. It may boil down to why Emma chose to live with Lizzie after the trial and whether either one was dependent upon the other to any extent.

augusta @ Wed Mar 10, 2010 1:01 pm wrote:What did Emma gain by the Bordens' deaths? Or do we just not know?

As you say Augusta......."Or do we just not know?"

No, we do not.

How strongly Emma felt or did not feel about Abbey falls well short of even conjecture.

Historically, very little is known about Emma and how she "really" felt about Abby, Lizzie, the crime, living at Maplecorft etc.

How Emma really felt, and any concrete notions, opinions and theories of how she viewed people around her is wholly based in myth.

And though we love to guess at why Emma really left Maplecroft, we can only speculated.....,with any assumptions we arrive at more than likely fallacious . After all, she was a grown women, one with lots of money. She could have been running away from the memories, Lizzie, town's people, reporters, or simply wanted a change in her life.

Considering her choice of Newmarket NH.....again, we can conclude but not presume.......a host of reasons could be true? Any from which we can could assume and be wrong.


Even during court testimony Emma was well scripted, giving up very little, even though she hinted that she and Lizzie were unhappy with Abby on certain matters.

But, one good guess is that she may have lived a very quite sad existence. Considering how much she must have been hounded by the press and how little we really know about her, we can safely assume that she was a very private person.

We can only guess that she must have known some of the truth, if not all, about the crime and had to live a long life in humble veracity.

It very well could be that there were three victims in the Borden murders....Andrew, Abby and EMMA.

From the little I know about the case, it doesn't appear to me that Emma gained very much from her father and stepmother's deaths, aside from Andrew Borden's money. If we assume that Emma disliked Abby as much, or even more so, than Lizzie, and was unhappy living in the house, then one could say that she gained freedom - although, as Yooper pointed out, she was not entirely independent as she lived with Lizzie for a long time.

Lizzie appears to have been the one who tried to party it up a little afterwards. Apart from having a nicer house and perhaps more modern conveniences, it doesn't seem like Emma changed her lifestyle very much. I would guess, though, that no matter what her relationship with Andrew and Abby, and no matter what she did or didn't know about what happened that day, simply the fact that her father and stepmother had been murdered, and in such a brutal way, was probably something that weighed on her mind for the rest of her life. I'm not saying they didn't move on from the incident, but I find it hard to imagine that anyone could fully move on from murder. It must have lingered, casting its own shadow over their lives.

One point may be worth mentioning. Emma moved out of the living situation with Lizzie, she did not move out of the living situation with Andrew and Abby. Granted, she had the means to do that after the murders. The ability to do that might be considered a gain.

That's true, Yooper. At least after the murders, Emma had a choice about - well, pretty much everything.

There was a reason why Emma moved out of Maplecroft. Reverend Buck recommended she do so when she talked to him about this reason. I think some day we'll find out what it was. Too bad Emma didn't tell that reporter she talked to/allegedly talked to in 1913. I still have some difficulty accepting that she granted an interview.

Good post, Gaheris. Yes - no matter how innocent or guilty Emma was, those murders were always with her. I never thought of that before. Very insightful. Yes, they had to be with her.

Yes, mb. Emma's testimony was sparse. But it did come out that Emma disliked Abby more than Lizzie. That came as a real surprise to me, because prior to reading that, to me Emma was just this older, quiet sister in a black dress - very prim and proper, a good Christian, and her face forever fixed in the look she has in the photo of her when she was older. Passive-agressive, I think she was.

I see her as a very private person too, mb. I would think she hated the pranksters in Fall River, the reporters, and the fact that living in Maplecroft took away her previous anonymity.

Didn't she have a fur coat that she would ride somewhere every spring and fall to put it in storage and take it out? (Not to be confused with Lizzie doing it.)

She did make a sizable donation to the Animal Rescue League of Fall River (as did Lizzie) in her will and also bequeathed funds to several charities.

She went to Scotland at least once (a postcard remains from her sending it). Do we know who she sent it to?

Partial quote:

augusta @ Fri Mar 12, 2010 12:38 pm wrote:She went to Scotland at least once (a postcard remains from her sending it). Do we know who she sent it to?

From page 299 in Rebello:

"Emma sent a postcard to Mrs. George S. Brigham on August 12, 1906, from Glasgow, Scotland."

The card is in the possession of the FR Historical Society.

I believe Mrs. George Brigham was Mary Brigham. She accompanied Lizzie to the Inquest, conducted experiments with Uncle John in the guest room and testified for Lizzie at both the Preliminary and Trial.

Note: The Taunton Gazette of Aug 10th says she was Mrs. James W. Bingham (sic). The Evening Standard in several articles identifies her as Mrs. George S. Brigham. I believe the Standard is correct.

Yes, it is true that Emma voiced herself on how she felt about Abby. Whether she felt strongly about it, that is to say, really disliked or even hated Abby is an argument we can make.

But........., could it be that Emma was just supporting her sister?

There is a strong possibility, likelihood, and even proof to substantiate a tiff between Lizzie and her sister, which very well accounted for Emma leaving Maplecroft.

As the years went by Emma and her sister must have endured loads of guilt, or even contrition which substantially strained their relationship. Sort of like a husband and wife who lose a young son or daughter to death. How many times have we heard about this sort of thing..........and finding out that the couple divorced shortly after.

Emma could have been looking for a reason to leave. And, it is a sure thing that Lizzie would supply it.

Add to this the fact that Lizzie, now having money, began to live the life she always wished for.

Thus yes, it is a good bet that Emma left unsatisfied and unhappy. What it was and how she really felt about the matter; whether sadly, angry, fearfully, etc. can only be guessed to.

We just don't know.....

But, one thing is for sure. What little we know about Emma does not a person make. There are so many unknown(s). Unlike characters in a play or movie, Emma and her family were a lot more complex individuals than we can guess and probably lived much more interesting lives than we surmise.

Yes, the Scottish connection and the Borden girls is an interesting one.

There is no mistaking the fact that Lizzie for one love reading about it.

I have handled two novels that once belong to Lizzie. One book mentions Scotland and the other takes place in Scotland.

What I found intriguing were the scribbles and passages Lizzie underlined. It gave an insight to her interests and values.

Sir Walter Scott and his Waverly novels (many of them set in the Scottish Highlands) were extremely popular in the early Victorian period and exerted a great deal of influence on the popular novels of the later Victorian era. These books could have impacted Lizzie and Emma.

The Emerys were supposed to be "cousins" to the Morses. Emery genealogy descends from Scotland.

While we don't know much about Rhoda Morrison's ancestry, Clan Morrison is definitely Scottish.

Perhaps the girls learned more about their non-Borden roots than we suspect today...they might have been aware of specific ties to Scotland.

Before the murders, Lizzie and Emma had been dependent upon Andrew and seemed to share a common discontent, namely Abby. Both of those conditions were removed after the murders, life became a whole different ballgame. If they grew apart as a result, I guess it could be understood.

If Emma stayed with Lizzie to continue in the role of mother figure, Lizzie may have tired of living with a "parent". She may have found that living with Emma was not much less restrictive than living with Andrew.

Yooper @ Sat Mar 13, 2010 12:52 am wrote:Before the murders, Lizzie and Emma had been dependent upon Andrew and seemed to share a common discontent, namely Abby. Both of those conditions were removed after the murders, life became a whole different ballgame. If they grew apart as a result, I guess it could be understood.

I suppose it would depend on how much the sisters had to tie them together, beside their obvious familial ties and the common bond of hating Abby and being irritated with Andrew. If, as is possible, they were two completely different people with different opinions on many things, and the rift between their stepmother and father was the only thing that united them, then perhaps it is no surprise that they finally drifted away from each other.