Lizzie Borden Society Forum

I have always wondered about this. With Abby being such a heavy woman and the house so narrow, why didn't Bridget hear a thud and react. She was out cleaning the windows, I am sure she would have felt the house stir or something.

That's why I am wondering if she knew more that what she was telling. or maybe helped Lizzie out. Not only of the cleaning up, but maybe helping with the murder?

What do you all think?

I'm pretty sure Shelley has conducted some tests as to what can be heard and from where within the house. Bridget was talking to the next door maid for a time at the opposite corner of the house from where Abby was killed and she was to and from the barn several times. It could also be that the house was constructed solidly enough to isolate sounds and vibrations. It's a good question though, the sound of Abby hitting the floor would have to be missed by Lizzie, too, if she was unaware of Abby's death.

I've never thought that Bridget had anything to do with the murders, per se. I don't rule out the possibility that perhaps she may have helped Lizzie cover up (assuming that Lizzie was the murderer, which is my belief) but if that was the case, I think it would have been something that happened by chance - i.e. she happened to stumble across something and helped cover the murders up out of fear. I don't believe she was involved in any premeditated plot to murder the Bordens, as I see no motive on her part - didn't she reputedly get along well with Abby?

I'm more of the opinion, though, that Bridget didn't hear or see anything at the time and that if she did end up finding out something, it was after the fact.

I've always thought Bridget figured things out as the case unfolded. I don't think she had any idea that whatever the Bordens family problems might have been, that they would have ended up a double homicide. She went about her chores and took a nap without fear, but when she woke up a nightmare began. She didn't see or hear anything but I imagine things occurred to her and certain facts started to add up. Didn't she leave the Borden house and never return the evening after the murders? I sometimes wonder if the police knew in their hearts that the guilty party was Lizzie and that is why Bridget was never charged with anything. Lizzie may have hoped that her status in society would've caused Bridget to be blamed. She was "only the maid" and also irish. Bridget must have felt like she narrowly escaped being charged with murder. And if she were convicted she most likely would've been hanged. I can't imagine being a young woman from Ireland in 1892, working as a maid and your employers are murdered with only yourself and their daughter in the house. *That* is a serious nightmare!

I imagine part of the reason Bridget wasn't considered a suspect for very long was that Lizzie corroborated Bridget's story about being in her room, or at least going there, but no one corroborated Lizzie's story about going to the barn. While no one noticed any blood on Lizzie, they didn't notice any dirt or grime from rummaging around the hayloft, either.

It's hard to imagine that the police didn't confront Lizzie about the absence of footprints in the loft floor dust. I don't think that any of us would get away with theoretically saying we were "peeling potatoes in the kitchen," yet, no potatoes were anywhere to be found. Was it established that Lizzie's voice could be heard from the maid's room ? Carpeting may have muffled the sound, somewhat.

If I recall correctly, Shelley once said that it’s virtually impossible to hear (from up attic where Bridget’s room was) anything taking place in the sitting room. On the other hand, if Lizzie hollered from the foot of the stairs up, she ought have been easily heard I'd think.

I feel Bridget's reaction to the whole thing seemed genuine. She showed a real fear of going upstairs to look for Abby because she didn't know what she'd find or who she thought could still be up there. She left the house as soon as she could instead of sleeping there another night. Those are the kinds of reactions someone who was innocent would have.

Just to play devil's advocate for a moment, how much different would Bridget's reactions be if she was guilty of a degree of wrongdoing?

For what it's worth, Bridget went running off to fetch people to the Borden house, possibly still not feeling up to par, based on something Lizzie told her. She had not seen Andrew at the time, so it was a rumor as far as she knew when she ran for Dr. Bowen and Alice.

Lizzie found "Father" and called to Bridget who was resting. So Bridget could hear Lizzie call her but not the sounds of a double murder with an axe or other blunt object? And Bridget goes on to find Abby.

If they are both a party to the crime, than they both have to put on the performance of a lifetime. "A murder!! Eeeek!" That sounds like a risky move, having them both have to "act". If things were planned out you would think that would have been avoided.

If that is logical and this premeditated murder you have to figure only one of the two women who found each body knew what happened.

darthvader @ Thu Mar 18, 2010 11:40 pm wrote:Lizzie found "Father" and called to Bridget who was resting. So Bridget could hear Lizzie call her but not the sounds of a double murder with an axe or other blunt object? And Bridget goes on to find Abby.

If they are both a party to the crime, than they both have to put on the performance of a lifetime. "A murder!! Eeeek!" That sounds like a risky move, having them both have to "act". If things were planned out you would think that would have been avoided.

If that is logical and this premeditated murder you have to figure only one of the two women who found each body knew what happened.

But my thing is, Bridget was lying down at the time of the murder, she couldn't hear what was going on in the parlor? Even though her room was on the third floor, it was a narrow house.

Also, I am wondering if maybe Lizzie might have said something in passing and Bridget just dismissed it. You know, something on the lines of "I am going to kill them" or "I wish I could kill them" or "I wish they were dead", kind of thing.

YES:

We must get the fact that Abby made a noise when she fell out of our heads. Everyone assumes that she made a noise when she fell.

It is just as likely she did not make any noise when she hit the carpeted floor. Many scenarios come into play here.

She could have fallen onto the bed first, then rolled onto the floor.

She could have been kneeling while making right the bed.

She could have been slowly wrestled to the floor before killed.

The killer, he/she, could have made her beg for her life; made her kneel first. (though unlikely) etc. etc.

Even tours given at the house and lectures given by prominent scholars play up the fact that she made a noise and someone should have heard it.

The erroneous fact that Abby made a noise when she fell is made by those who believe that Lizzie was the killer--- or she would have heard a thud which Abby's body made. (How could Lizzie have not heard the body drop? It's because she was the killer. How could Bridget not heard the body drop. Because she was in on it.)

And if Abby was as "FAT" as everyone likes playing her out to be, well, fat which is wrapped in clothing and dropped onto a carpeted floor does not make that much noise.

Perhaps she was so fat, stubby and close to the floor already that the distance was miniscule and noise minimal.

Which touches on another topic---Abby's weight. If she were alive today, and we were able to meet her, we may be quite surprise that we were fatter than she was.

The poor women was over weight, a heavy women. Let us say you are the same and people describe you as FAT. (You know, my friend the FAT guy) Does Abby have so little attribute and so disliked that we must always refer to her as FAT?

Well, writers over the decades have labeled her well.....and it has stuck.

The women was over weight. Yes. But, it is not necessarily true that she once held a stall in the circus.

ASS - U - ME

Stop assuming that Abby made a noise when she made contact with the floor. We don't know if she did or did not. To play up this uncertainty is to follow a popular and possible specious reality.

Lizzie could have murdered her parents?

Abby could have shaken the house when she hit the floor like a Ponderosa Redwood.

The truth is:

We don't know what sort of noise Abby made when she hit the floor.

The maid is lying down upstairs with windows open. Perhaps Lizzie closed the doors downstairs before she did the deed. I can't recall all of the doors between the sitting room, and back staircase.

Lizzie would have to have gone into the basement to clean up the axe. We have to wonder what may have happened had Bridget suddenly decided to go wee wee, and walked in on Lizzie attacking Andrew perhaps to ask Lizzie a question, or something. Ships passing in the halls.....bloody axe, a maid having to whizz. Of course, they had chamber pots...but still....being caught in the act...Lizzie took a chance on Miss Sullivans habits. I have laid down for a snooze, only to bounce right back up, and go do something else.

You have to spend the night in this room. Tell you what, I did and the only thing I heard was noise outside (the bus station). The bath is shared just outside the hall and I tried to tell if somebody was in there by listening (instead of looking) and I could never tell. And that was just outside the hall. The walls and doors are pretty solid stuff. There is a good chance Bridget up in the attic never heard a thing.

Shelley posted this in August 2009. Partial quote:

"A thud is heard in the sitting room, dining room, front hall and parlor- but not in the kitchen. We've done this experiment maybe 100 or more times. People love to listen for it. Of course, it may be far more likely that poor Abby went down in stages, not just a body slam from a complete vertical."

As to when Bridget left the house to sleep and came back and left... etc.
Trial
Bridget
Q. Did you remain at the house after the homicide any length of time?
A. I stayed there. I went out Thursday night and slept out in Mrs. Miller's girl's
house, and Friday night I slept in the house.

Q. You mean Mrs. Miller's house with the girl?
A. With the servant. I slept with her Thursday night.

Q. On Thursday night?
A. Yes, sir, and I came back Friday morning, stayed there all through the time and did
the work and Friday night I went out and came back and slept in the house.

Q. In the Borden house?
A. Yes, sir, and Saturday night I left for good as I thought, and came back Monday
and Mr. Miller said I should not leave the house until he came and took me out.

Q. You did not stay there Saturday night?
A. No, sir, -- or Sunday night.

Q. You were not there Sunday morning?
A. No, sir.

Q. Were you there Sunday at all for any part of the day?
A. No, sir, I came there Monday morning.

~ ~ ~ ~

No one seems to have noticed Bridget's state of dress, or dishevelment. She also says she changed her clothing that afternoon.
So both changed their clothes, both claimed to have been busy during one or other of the murders, both claimed they went to their rooms sometime that day, both had been ill, or not feeling too well, each was seen outside at different times- Bridget seen by Mary Doolan and by George Petty, and by Mrs. Churchill (but not at the right times)- Lizzie seen possibly by Hyman Lubinsky. None of these sightings impress me personally as to any alibi for either, btw.

Someone mentioned a body in the parlour- but that is the sitting room, they mean, I believe?

As to Abbie possibly falling on the bed before the floor- after her first strike to her facial area near her ear- there would be copious blood which would have been seen on the bedspread. There was not anything like that disclosed in testimony. Also, if wrestled to the floor in a struggle, same applies as to her wounds (blood found), but also there's a likelihood of scratches or bruises that would show on her (Abbie) as defensive- and maybe (likely) on the killer as well.

It's been speculated by Len that there was a pump in the kitchen sink, so do we think cleaning a weapon there might have been heard upstairs in Bridget's room? Anyone have a theory about that? And running water in the cellar- anyone know if that could be heard (say, in the pipes) from Bridget's room?

Yes Kat:

The answer to that is elementary my dear women. The person who did the crime took the weapon away with them.

I'm not saying that Lizzie had nothing to do with it......but, considering the time line, lack of blood on Lizzie's clothing and the verity that the axe was not found we can safely surmise that a 3rd party did the crime.

The fact that the police were left with a poor example for a murder weapon proved that the pickings were slim and the actual weapon no longer on the property at the time of the investigation.

Lizzie could have been right behind the killer cheering the killer away....but chances are she did not wheel the axe---unless, unless, unless, ah, again, I repeat, unless Bridget was in on it. If so, we can throw the entire time line out the window, which would give Lizzie plenty of time to get rid of the axe, wash, and stage her innocence. If we are to believe Bridget, time dictates Lizzie's actions which just would not give her the time to commit the crime, wash, and dispose of the weapon.

But, we must be prepared to think for ourselves and question the prevailing widespread theories and common scenarios fed to us by sensationalists such as Lincoln, Speiring and the out of control Jules Ryckebusch.

The popularity of such personalities, the stories they tell, the books they write become accepted truths which are repeated buy experienced writers and students alike. And, though their inventive ideas make for stimulating discussion, we must not accept what they say as always reliable, but instead do our own focused study, and using the facts arrive at our own constructive conclusion.

But, if we are to believe that Abby did make a noise, and that Lizzie and/or Bridget chose to ignore it, so, then let us talk about the piece of Abby's scalp which flew across the room and under the radiator.

Oh! you didn't know that happened?

Well it did.

Jules ryckebusch said so.......after all, he's an authority on the case.

Now I'm interested in not just the sound of a body falling, but these kinds of noises of everyday life as well? If these were often heard, maybe no longer noted by the inhabitants, ie:
Does anyone have experience living in old houses that have a hand pump for water in the kitchen sink? Would a 2 or 3 story home be able to hear that kind of thing on different floors- or water running in the cellar thru pipes?

Even if that privy in the cellar was the flush kind, would that be heard?

(I'm on the main computer now- boy do I miss spell-check when I use the old laptop!)

The hatchet may have been hidden in a place where the police did not look, it may still be there for all I know. Since I don't know for certain where the police looked, I can't say where they did not look.

If they did not find the hatchet, all we can conclude is they did not find it, not that it wasn't there.

If witnesses say they didn't notice any blood on Lizzie after the murders, all we can conclude is they didn't notice any blood, not that there wasn't any. Why would anyone be looking for blood on Lizzie at that point? She was considered a victim at that time, not the perpetrator. No one noticed any dust or grime from the hayloft on her, either.

I lean toward the theory that Abby was slowly wrestled to the floor right before being killed. The only thing about this is that it would have given her time to cry out, which would surely have been heard. There are just so many weird things about this case, it is unreal.

I don't believe for a minute that the police were honest or competent.

You may well believe that burglars and murders are also liars, goons and thugs. And, you would probably be right.

Well, I also believe the same. Some may appear as gentlemen. Flip over the coin and you find the face of a liar, goon and thug.

The same is true about many police........turn the coin over and you have your liar, your goon and your thug. In many cases they are both the same coin.


"What the heck is this guy talking about?"

Well, I believe that once the authorities fingered Lizzie they tried their best to make the case work.

The police felt sure that Lizzie was guilty, had something to do with the murders but had nothing on her. And just like the O.J trail, they tampered with the evidence, the axe, the axe handle and lied on the stand about it.

The police lied about the footprints in the barn. I believe that.

I Chose to believe the findings of the firm "Brownie and Barlow Private Investigators.

I believe that the kids were up in that barn.

But also, I don't believe that Lizzie went upstairs in the barn. Taking into consideration Libinsky's testimony, I do believe that Lizzie probably went to the barn, hung around the barn, the yard etc.

You may not agree. And, you could be right.

But, you can't prove it.

I can't prove it.

And that is what makes the study of this case so enthralling.

Makes me wonder if Abby said something about the real estate transfer/will. "Lizzie, there's nothing you can do to stop it" in a smug way, and Lizzie thought "you wanna bet ?" I cannot imagine calmly walking in to kill someone, but in anger, and rage, I can imagine it clearly, depending upon who it was.