Lizzie Borden Society Forum

I know this is just idle speculation, but I've always wondered about Lizzie's birthday so soon before this happened and also if there was any significance to the number of blows with the ax - put the 2 together, her birthday was on the 19th of the previous month and Abby had 19 blows. (I think I'm correct on those facts.) Anyway, it's kind of an interesting coincidence. Too bad we don't know anything about what happened on her birthday.
Suzie

I would have to say I doubt the number of blows to Abby's head had anything to do with the date of Lizzie's birth. I think the number of blows weren't counted, but only delivered one after another in a frenzied manner.

Interesting . . . probably totally a coincidence but I do love it when things like this match up.

So if the 19 is her birth date, then what about the 10 to Andrew?

Lizzie Borden took an axe
gave her mother 19 whacks
when she saw what she had done
she gave her father 9 plus 1

mb! I agree it was probably just a coincidence. OTOH some psychos like the symbolic stuff. Haven't seen anything that clicked with the number 10 yet.

I never noticed the coincidence before, Suz. Good post!

Loved your new quatrain, mb.

I was recently trying to envision that Andrew Borden was the prime victim and I had to contend with the number of blows being almost double for the female victim rather than the male: But like a spree killer or killers committing the murders, maybe having more hatred towards females in particular- but thinking "Yea, but what about the people who were not killed? Lizzie and Bridget left alive are the biggest obstacle to that whole line of speculation!

Just a weird thought that came to me-

what if Abby had a secret lover or suitor and when he found out she wasn't going to leave Andrew, killed her and then Andrew? Not too far-fetched if you think about it. The over-kill on Abby, the blows to Andrew's face. He would be taking a risk with Lizzie and Bridget being in and out (if you can trust their testimonies) and he had no issues with the 'girls' or Bridget.

He might have had some trouble getting in and out of the house unobserved. People had time to stand and stare in those days, and the Bordens had some very nosey neighbours, in the nicest possible way of course!

This is what a Birthday Astrology site had to say about those born, as Lizzie was, on July 19th.

'Cancers are quiet and inscrutable. They possess a generally sweet temperament and a true love of people. They don't try and grab the spotlight, though they're often thrust unwillingly into it.'
L.O.L.

LOL!

Hmm, I forgot momentarily about the neighbors. Not unless there was someway he could have seen Bridget working outside, went around the house to the door (away from her) and entered. Didn't someone say there were workers near by? He could have been passed off as one of those to anyone who was working- who knows, maybe he got the job just for that reason!

I always think that both Andrew and Abby were the targets of the murder.

Abby received 19 blows, Andrew (only) 10 or 11. The difference of the blows could be explained by the hypothesis that the killer --- if an intruder --- had much more time to kill Abby, but after having killed Andrew, he should escape as quickly as possible. Beside this, could it be possible that the killer was a misogynist?

If the killer were Lizzie, the explanations would be different.

Do you believe, Franz, that the intruder may have been let into the house, assisted in these murders by Lizzie ie the David Anthony theory? (There is a thread examining that theory, which Catbooks and debbiediablo were rather keen on.)

Apologies for revisiting this. Although I tell myself it's a puerile speculation these numbers just keep bugging me.

Supposing Lizzie did it, supposing she's a psychopath, and given there's such an unnecessary number of blows - could there be any psychopathic significance to their number?

All I can think of myself is this.

A fortnight before the murders Lizzie turns 32.
She's now been without her real mother 29 years.

Isn't 29 the number of strikes in total?

Yes, Abby received 19 blows, and Andrew received 10 blows. I can't image anyone who is planning to murder two people, taking the time to plan out the number of blows they would administer. Lizzie was only 3 years old when her mother pasted away, and if I recall correctly, she barely remembered her mother. After Andrew married Abby, Lizzie referred to her as 'mother', until Andrew purchased the Whitehead house and put it in Abby's name, and then Lizzie began calling her Mrs. Borden.

Yes, I know, and I can't imagine it either, pre-planning the number of hits, or keeping count as I kill.
But I can't count anyway, I'm not a psychopath, and I've big problems reconciling violent frenzied 'overkill' with the premeditated planning, timing and attention to minutiae of a 'mastermind' Lizzie. Even to get Bridget corralled into obedience would take longer than the time available, seems to me - between-killings plus after. (I believe it impossible for Lizzie to commit the killings without Bridget's awareness. Those original police-officers thought so too.)

I love the idea of Sarah Borden 'pasting away'.
Yes, Lizzie is three when her mother dies. The earlier the better, to evolve an idealised, fully cathected mother-fantasy.